Twilight phoenix - the first poison pill in Elvenar...

[MaidenFair]

No, that is not how multi-wave fights work. If you go into a 2-stage fight with a squad of 10,000 troops and half die in the first wave, for the second wave the squad now has a max size of only 5000 troops. So the 5% from the Phoenix will revive 500 in the first wave and 250 in the second wave. So if your 1 million all die in wave 1, you get back that 50,000 and that becomes the new squad size for wave 2, and then you get back 5% of that 50,000, not the 1 million.

Weird. I was sure that it showed the squad bars as half-filled (or whatever percentage) when you go into the second round. Okay, I stand corrected. Thanks!

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Weird. I was sure that it showed the squad bars as half-filled (or whatever percentage) when you go into the second round. Okay, I stand corrected. Thanks!

That part is deceptive. It will show the bar as less than full if there was loss in that squad, but if you look at the bar after the 2nd wave, the bar will be full if there was no more loss, but the number over the bar will be the reduced amount from the 1st wave loss. So that 10,000 size squad that loses half the troops will show a half full bar of 5000 troops after the 1st wave, but the size for the 2nd wave is now 5000 and if there are no more loss in the 2nd wave, the bar will be full for the 5000, not half full for the original 10,000.

 

[Deleted User - 849411552]

@MichaelMichael Your LGN/wholesaling strategy is fascinating! A couple of questions: 1 if you have an event quest which wants you to produce a large amount of goods, does wholesaling count? 2. Does wholesaling count towards Golden Bracelet badges during fellowship adventures?

Wholesale purchases, or any other trades, do not count towards events or fellowship adventures that require you to produce a certain amount of goods. All the goods-related fellowship adventure challenges require you to produce the goods in your Tier 1 manufactories. This includes the Golden Bracelet, which requires you to "Produce a good amount of any Tier One Goods".

Tier One Goods produced in event-related buildings such as the Pilgrim's Manor set also count towards the Golden Bracelet.

 

[Gkyr]

As a caterer, I can't argue for the Phoenix on fighting grounds, since I haven't experienced that. However,

I agree with your initial premise.

the broad statement that it shouldn't be deployed before chapter 14 seems a little strong. It also provides goods, population, and culture, all of which may make it attractive and efficient for a lower-level player.

There are many things attractive to a beginning player. Some just select buildings for the appearance of their city. It is perfectly fine to build the bird to enjoy the blue flapping wings. Research the production of the bird on https://idavis-elvenar.github.io/buildings.html or elven architect. The per tile output for population or for culture or for both is woeful. To this add a 48 hour collection for an unimpressive amount of goods and the bird comes close to topping the list of event buildings that are inefficient.

Just because it has a feeding effect, doesn't mean that's the only reason to place it.

Yes, it is.

I have placed pets myself in my city with no intention of feeding them because they were useful to me in some other way. Case in point, I got 5 Moon Bear artefacts in their recent Spire stay. I'm getting close to entering Woodelves and that Moon Bear, even at only level 6 (and never being fed!), will be the best mana producer in my city by far.

I agree with you, especially about the Moon Bear. I have two, myself.

It's so easy for high-level players to replace troops when they have a Brown Bear and hundreds of time instants to burn, that I think it's easy to forget earlier cities don't have those advantages, and replacing the troops lost in just one disastrous battle can take days. Even an occasional boost from the Twilight will ease that a little bit.

Most players don't grasp that the usefulness of the bird is primarily to offset the rate at which small losses add up during a Tourney or Spire run. A Twilight Phoenix cannot compensate for poor troop selection, poor squad placement or poor preparation but only when all of these factors are set correctly will the bird add another layer of buff to the experience of serial battles.
The effect is astounding when the prerequisite conditions of planning and execution are properly carried out with a good supply of troops initially and the advantage diminishes greatly when one gets lazy and thinks that the resurrections will compensate for hasty, careless battle engagement.

 

[DeletedUser27062]

...that I am aware of.

The Twilight Phoenix (hereafter referred to as 'the bird') can be acquired by anyone in any chapter since the base is given early. Newbies will have the base and perhaps a handful of artifacts and perhaps they will try to buy more.

The downside of the bird rests on its measly 12-hour duration. Any player of modest means habitually trying it for 6 or even fewer rounds of Tourney or even through just the High Halls of the Spire will find their supply of Pet Food RAPIDLY depleted.

It is a Food disposer for the unprepared. Fortunately, the bitter nature of the pill will discourage smaller cities from continuing to feed it and, unless they appreciate its drops, it might well get inventoried. Equally as bitter, the effect of the bird when only partially evolved and also when used with small armies is a barely-audible "meh.".

The usefulness of the bird becomes amazing when fully evolved and used in conjunction with a Polar Bear and at least a level 12 Timewarp. [This statement is made for the benefit of players who do not know about such things; I realize that there is a large contingent of experienced players who are already doing this - and more). The ability to do 2 rounds of the Tourney within 12 hours seems to be the minimum condition for the bird to demonstrate its usefulness, which only increases as the level of the Timewarp AW increases and allows a player to do 3, 4, 5 or all 6 rounds of the Tourney within 12 hours.

Therefore, this building is a liability or just plain useless for a newby to employ. It is the first and only building that I am aware of that should be acquired but remain in inventory until the completion of chapter 14.

The bird's value is to high scoring tourney players who experience large losses. The 5% Lazarus effect was strategically coupled with the ability to buy multiple bases and artifacts for those so inclined. One city in Arendyll has 9 or 10 of them so for a few thousand dollars has the ability to recoup 45-50% of their troop losses. This was the bird's only purpose - as a wallet whisperer.

 

[Iyapo1]

lol...isn't that the purpose of all the event buildings...wallet whispering.

 

[MaidenFair]

Research the production of the bird on https://idavis-elvenar.github.io/buildings.html or elven architect. The per tile output for population or for culture or for both is woeful. To this add a 48 hour collection for an unimpressive amount of goods and the bird comes close to topping the list of event buildings that are inefficient.

This illustrates my point exactly: it depends on chapter and player capability. You're absolutely right that it's not worth the space for production alone in higher chapters, which is why I did not place the Phoenix in my chapter 8 city after consulting ElvenArchitect when the event started. However, I did place it in my newly-chapter 3 city because it is actually efficient at that level: the Phoenix takes up the same number of squares as 4 planks manufactories at the level I currently have. Each plank manufactory currently produces 46 planks per 3 hours, and 86 per 9 hours, so if I run a maximum (for me) production of 4 3-hr cycles and 1 9-hr each day, that means each plank manufactory gives me 270 planks per day. Multiply that by 4 to get the same footprint as the Phoenix (1080) and by 2 again to cover the 2-day production cycle (2160 planks from 4 manufactories in 2 days). In comparison, the chapter 3 Twilight Phoenix, evolved only to level 8, gives me 1716 planks and 993 marble in 2 days, a total of 2709 T1 goods, an increase of just over 20% from what I can manufacture in the same footprint at the moment. That doesn't even take into account the 1 KP, or the population swing of 364 people (that's more than 3 fully upgraded residences can hold; +154 from the Phoenix, -208 from the manufactories) or the culture difference of 396 (+308 from Phoenix, -88 from manufactories), or the savings on gold and supplies it would take to run that many production cycles... It simply is more efficient at this level than the alternative, and would be even more so for a player who got it fully evolved, who does not have the ability to check in every 3 hours throughout the day, or who has a lower boost value.

Perhaps I don't understand the absolute best way to use it but then we were both just offering hypotheticals as to how we foresaw this addition to the game playing out. I'm not saying that I believe it's the answer to new players' battle woes, or that I think it covers for poor choices. I do believe that trading a pet food now and then (which I would have the fragments or relics/catalysts to do, even in my chapter 3 city) for the sake of saving precious time and supplies on retraining troops would be worth it. Maybe if I observed the actual numbers somewhere, I would find that it doesn't actually save enough time to be useful in that way; however, since I already know it can be used as an efficient production option (for however limited a time), my inclination is still that the feeding effect could merely be icing on the cake for a newer player since the bottom line is that feeding it will save some time and supplies spent training troops, however meagre those numbers might turn out to be in practice, and most new players don't have other pets vying for that same food.

(Edited slightly to make more sense with the post I was replying to.)

 

[Gkyr]

The bird's value is to high scoring tourney players who experience large losses.

Exactly. Advanced veteran players are, for a change, getting a benefit instead of the short end. It is very good at what it does for them. So much so that I think it is only a matter of time before the Devs come up with a way to nerf it.

 

[BrinDarby]

So much so that I think it is only a matter of time before the Devs come up with a way to nerf it.

There is no Nerf tho, just just hurts those players, any Nerf
would prolly hurt everyone else....

 

[StarLoad]

To be completely fair the "value' of the TP while fighting the way up the spire falls off when faced with multi-part battles, the Vitality Surge is far better and more effective in the spires' multi-part battles. I did not place the TP's I have for the Pop, or Culture, I have more than enough and the T3 and S3 Goods are just extra icings on the cake. 8 free KP are just ok over 2 days.

Ed

 

[DeletedUser27062]

Exactly. Advanced veteran players are, for a change, getting a benefit instead of the short end. It is very good at what it does for them. So much so that I think it is only a matter of time before the Devs come up with a way to nerf it.

Yeah I don't think it's nearly as good as you feel it is. It has very limited value to a select few. Compared to the bb they break even when it comes to troops gained per petfood.

 

[Killy-]

Well, the effect of the bird get's better the more of them you have (given you have enough tournament provinces), while the bb effect is getting worse.

 

[StarLoad]

Yeah I don't think it's nearly as good as you feel it is. It has very limited value to a select few. Compared to the bb they break even when it comes to troops gained per petfood.

That assumes one has a fully evolved Brown bear. I don't so I am evaluating the TP on its own merits. Mixing buildings that do different things really is not a fair way to compare or evaluate a buildings merits. Petfood is not a valid way to compare as you need to use timers to speed up the 'bears" effect in building troops. That's like saying 1 petfood that feeds a moon bear is better/worse than a Polar bear as they do completely different things.

Ed

 

[Killy-]

Petfood is not a valid way to compare as you need to use timers to speed up the 'bears" effect in building troops.

If someone uses the time boosters in this way anyways, than there is no point in counting those to the cost of the bb.

 

[DeletedUser27062]

That assumes one has a fully evolved Brown bear. I don't so I am evaluating the TP on its own merits. Mixing buildings that do different things really is not a fair way to compare or evaluate a buildings merits. Petfood is not a valid way to compare as you need to use timers to speed up the 'bears" effect in building troops. That's like saying 1 petfood that feeds a moon bear is better/worse than a Polar bear as they do completely different things.

Ed

No, you don't need to use timers and supply instants. They certainly make it more efficient but no, you can feed and walk away.
Karvest did the math over on B forum. He said the phoenix was better once you include losses from a 45 province tourney. I don't know many folk who regularly do 45 tents so I think it's a bit of a gimmick.
But if you like it that's cool. I'm glad you're happy with it.

 

[Tehya1]

That's like saying 1 petfood that feeds a moon bear is better/worse than a Polar bear as they do completely different things.

Except that comparing the BB to the TP is valid since both involve troop recovery in their own way. They are in the same business, whereas the PB is in the business of time.

 

[Gkyr]

Yeah I don't think it's nearly as good as you feel it is.

Well, its not a matter of how I feel. I am the second-from-junior member of a FS that does 19 chests every week, so my seniors know how to accumulate resources, fight and cater very effectively. They are all impressed with the benefits of the bird and give accounts on chat that I am paying attention to and experiencing myself, in a more limited fashion.

It has very limited value to a select few.

From what they say and from what I have experienced, it has a great value for a select few.
Also, this is what I am hearing: it has been a long time since Inno has introduced something that makes Elvenar more satisfying to play for the more advanced gamers instead of more difficult. Sure, a game without challenges is a boring game, but many feel t[hat Inno has previously gone overboard on increasing the difficulties in the later chapters to the point that it becomes a slog.

Compared to the bb they break even when it comes to troops gained per petfood.

KK. Let us say that is true. Then there still remains the fact that the troops supplied by bb (Brown Bear, for those who are new to this) require Supplies and Time Boosts to accumulate the troops while the bird gives them for free.

 

[DeletedUser27062]

Well, its not a matter of how I feel.

They are all impressed with the benefits of the bird and give accounts on chat that I am paying attention to and experiencing myself, in a more limited fashion.


From what they say and from what I have experienced, it has a great value for a select few.

It is about what you feel. Value is subjective.

Appeals to popularity don't make experiences legitimate beyond personal preference. It's absolutely OK if it's your new fav thing or whatever. I'm just not impressed.

 

[DeletedUser27062]

Only sparkle building that have Neighborly help. Those without help do not grant the bonus culture. I visit 300 neighbors every day. I have 50+ buildings that can be helped and are sparkled. Most of them usually are helped by my many neighbors. It pays off if you do a lot of visits every day. It also helps that (for me) that neighborly help last 24 hours. BTW, the enchantment bonus is from Power of Provision and it multiplies.

You are going to love love love the new temp buildings coming with the next event - little 1x1 flower fields that do things like add 10% goods to the wholesaler, extend EE etc. Their effects are stackable too.

 

[StarLoad]

No, you don't need to use timers and supply instants. They certainly make it more efficient but no, you can feed and walk away.

From all I have read and seen feeding the brown bear and using it once for a collection, even if the Que was filled and completed would seem to be inefficient. Everyone I have talked to that uses it feeds the bear or posted on the forum about it uses time instants to pump out troops, this would seem to be the common practice.

Ed