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    Your Elvenar Team

Unfair Trades

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Ashrem

Well-Known Member
(Part 1/2 because apparently there is a character limit on posts)

We can certainly take the me and you outta it, replaced by person A and person B.... but I doubt that will help because ppl will read into that me and you, or me and them.... Unfair Trades includes trades in a unfair trading system. In order for a discussion about good/bad ( for the game ) it assumes the participants are unbias'd as to thier current state. I guarentee you, alot of times I'm for an idea because it helps like 90% of the playerbase, even if I'm in the other 10%.
That's how it should be for every idea, but I don't think you are as good at it as you think you are. A significant source of friction in this discussion is your unwillingness to acknowledge that a large number of people have spent several years analyzing the trade system in Elvenar and their input directly resulted in the system we have now. You display a certainty your ideas are right, which goes against what a majority of the players think is best for the game, and will not help people who don't want a game where trades are not easy to assess at a glance. You have provided insufficient evidence that the game would be improved by adopting your suggested trader values and not resisting people who want to trade for profit.

In games like this, for noobs, its usuall to be "groomed" by the current playerbase to play certain ways. Why, well thats simple, its what they know and how they know it.
When you say games like these, what other games are you referring to? Elvenar is not like a lot of other games, in that trade is effectively required but is not a focus of the game. I think you are extrapolating your view of how games in general are played, and imposing your expectations on Elvenar players. I've been playing for five years, in about a dozen different fellowships across multiple servers and accounts. I have seen lots of people offer advise on getting the most out of their space and effort. I perceive (and acknowledge it may not be your intent, but again, that goes to being misunderstood all the time) the use of the term "groom" as intended to imply they are doing something wrong, without providing any evidence that it is true.

Take the Moonstone Library set discussion, I was for a chg, but not @ the expense of current holders of those pieces...
Whereas I was in favour of the change even if it does affect current users, because I think it's good for the game even though I have nearly 100 Moonstone Pieces deployed and it would affect me strongly-negatively. I'm okay with that. I play the game as presented, and suggest where I think it can be improved for the majority. I was also one of the first (possibly the first) to raise the alarm that the elixir production from the Jester's Tavern two Christmases back was destabilizing the Tier 2 economy, even though any nerf to it would have hurt me as I had one and elixir is not my boost in any of my larger cities.

as for Micro/macro economics, (micro) a player and thier locals, and (macro) the whole trade system server wide....
I think the majority of us know what the terms mean. The question is how they are relevant. Where do you perceive a flaw in the system which requires players understand Macro vs Micro Economics? I put it to you that there is none. That understanding the definition of micro vs macro economics does not change the debate in any way. Where do you perceive that players need to specifically understand the difference between those two terms in order to understand your suggestion about changing the way trades are handled?

As far as I can tell there's only 1 AW, like chapter 9-11 researched, that has ANY bearing on trade, and thats only a drop in the fee, not any differences in the rings or the cap. Where are the 5 day instants to get reduced/free trade , or even 3-5 xtra rings of free trade ??? I bet some ppl might even (ohhhh) pay for a feature like that..... Since I'm the noob here, please tell me Every AW/instant/spell whatever, that aids trade ?

Like more rings/bigger cap/less fees/ect ect ect.....
You have interpreted correctly, there are no significant affects to be able to alter trading patterns. I think recognizing that raises the question of whether there should be. If the game were aimed at traders as an archetype, then it would need to do more to make that archetype successful. At the moment, I don't think Elvenar has any mechanism for "traders" as a successful class of player, and making it so would require significant changes. I suspect you have been disappointed by Elvenar because you saw trading mentioned in advertising and interpreted it in a different way than was intended.

(skipping some of your post, because I have no business addressing or defending what other players told you without knowing their words and the context)

going back to person/player A & B.... lets say Player A has played Elvenar for 4 years, and online MMOs for 8 years.... lets also say that we are talking generally simmilar MMOs.... while player B has been playing Elvenar 3 months, and online MMOs for 28 years... Usually there are transferrable skills between these games, so player B might have alot more tricks up thier sleeve, compared to player A, but will NOT be more knowledgeable about Elvenar. Again, this is not smart vs dumb, its general skills vs specific skills. Having a bigger skillset doesn't assume starter/dumber, unless you qualify that into a specific skill... and then its more, who's better @ that skill, not who's a better person/player.
Again, oversimplification. This is the same argument you tried elsewhere, inclduing with me in your opening message in our second conversation. Player B having 28 years experience in onlline MMOs doesn't mean that Player A doesn't also have 28 years experience in MMOs. Or twenty or thirty-five. Player B can not assume that they have more experience than anyone, let alone everyone. Elvenar is disproportionately full of players over fifty and even into their seventies and eighties. Many people on these forums have as much MMO experience as Player B, and they have also spent a lot of time in Elvenar. Many players with lots of experience like the difference from the majority of other MMO games.

Because forums are not face to face, and the participants do not know anything about each other, it's easy for words to convey thing unintentionally. That's a basic given of game forums that anyone who has been participating for more than a few months should understand. It doesn't matter if anyone is or isn't smarter or more experienced if one person's words make it sound like they think other people are not as logical or well informed as they are. I have played with nurses and doctors and professors, and military personnel. Every sentence we type ought to come from a place of assuming that the reader is smarter and more experienced than the writer even if they have provided evidence to the contrary.
 

Darielle

Well-Known Member
When I'm quoted, all thats listed were the 1st 5 words .... "I've had this problem before", then all sorts of assumptions related, that have NO BEARING on the whole quote were put forth against me... I was using a 1 time occurance to illustrate something that was totally lost in what ensued as comments.... It was an example how lazyness contributed to the problem and how in the end with enough understanding, it was a pretty damn good solution and accepted by most players. Often I read posts 4-5 times, or as many times as I feel necessary to gleam the right jist of a post, obviously when they just don't make sense......
I read your entire quote to which you refer in the above example. Basically it boils down to, "People are just too lazy to try to understand me, but once they finally gather enough brain cells to "get" what I say, they think, "OMG that's brilliant!"

There is no need to use your entire quote to show that you are the most condescending, self-absorbed and self-centered poster on the forum. There may be one or two who talk down to people, but he or they are nowhere near as impolite or as blatant. Believe me, we "get" it. We get that you are stubborn and can't accept good advice if your own bad advice conflicts with it. As far as the notion that, if player B has been on Elvenar for a month but played these types of games for 20 years, and player A has been on Elvenar for 10 years but that's all they've played, then player B is really better . . ." Okay, I admit you didn't say it exactly like that but again, that's the gist of it. And no, it doesn't equate and it's not logical. People who have been here a long time know how the INNO developers think and what the trends are here. It doesn't matter what player B knows from other games. He's still a noob and should understand that Ashrem and Sammi and others know what they are talking about.

You want to equate yourself with Data on Star Trek (why am I not surprised?) The fact is, the person who said "you're doing it wrong," while they might have worded it better, was absolutely correct. YES, building only boosts DOES work, from the very first chapter. Building boosts and then trading 100 of your boost for 95 of your nonboost DOES jump you miles ahead of others, even in the early chapters. Just because you want to be a gouger in the name of "free enterprise" does not mean that other strategies do not work better. Your strategy will not get you as far as mine has gotten me. I've been here for less than 10 months and have over 125,000 score. Since this is a long-term game that can take years to complete, that's good for a casual daily (not 24/7) player. The way you're going, you won't get there. I've never built nonboosts except for FAs. I've never done less than 3 star trades unless I was in a bind (a rare occurrence.) I currently have over half a million of my T3 boost and well over 100K on even my least item, which grant you, is not that great but it's good enough for the amount of time I've spent on the game. Some people have millions, and I will get there too with my system of giving slightly more than I take. Gouging would have shut me out of good traders and good fellowships, since many of them don't like gougers, even if the player calls it a different name or gives it a different spin.

I don't think anyone here has intended to degrade you or treat you as less intelligent, despite the fact that you have done that to everyone else since you started. It's time to realize that no matter how long you keep talking about this, no, they will NOT suddenly say, "Omg that's brilliant!" It's a pipe dream that won't happen because it can't. Your method of play is simply not as brilliant as you think it is. Period. You can turn this around by admitting your error and moving on with a better attitude. In time, you could even become an asset to the forum, with a restructuring of your whole attitude and a new understanding and respect for posters like the ones I mentioned above. I doubt it, but hope does spring eternal. Think about it.

Sigh, yes it is past time that I give this up. Feeding the fire is foolish and I know it. :(
 

Ashrem

Well-Known Member
(Part 2/2 because apparently there is a character limit on posts)

When I'm quoted, all thats listed were the 1st 5 words .... "I've had this problem before", then all sorts of assumptions related, that have NO BEARING on the whole quote were put forth against me... I was using a 1 time occurance to illustrate something that was totally lost in what ensued as comments.... It was an example how lazyness contributed to the problem and how in the end with enough understanding, it was a pretty damn good solution and accepted by most players. Often I read posts 4-5 times, or as many times as I feel necessary to gleam the right jist of a post, obviously when they just don't make sense......
Again, if the majority of respondents are not interpreting your words the way you want them to, that is your flaw, not theirs. Including if they thought you were making a general claim as opposed to specific one. Failure to communicate on a regular basis is always the responsibility of the person doing the communicating. There are no exceptions to that.

like the Pic of the rings/hex's ... saying "I've been meaning to post this for awhile" says nothing on why you want to post it in the 1st place.... yet I'm jumped on when , I read it 10 times, and 10 times I just wanna know why it was posted.... so I ask nicely.... Its like hearing a joke without the punchline, and saying "and.....", because without the punchline the listener/reader is expecting "more"....
So having read it several times, did you consider asking yourself "What do I gain from asking why they posted this and what are the downsides to asking the question?" I don't see the gain in asking why they posted it. It is trivial to ignore a post you don't need. An immediate downside I see is that it can easily be interpreted as a passive-aggressive attack on their intelligence and their competence to be posting on the forums. If you did not intend that post to be a subtle attack on the other player, then you failed to communicate. At least one of us saw the post, thought "that's interesting" and moved on, only to see your reply as an attack, yet decide to move on without saying anything about it because it wasn't worth facing more complaints about me always attacking you.

When I'm quoted, all thats listed were the 1st 5 words .... "I've had this problem before", then all sorts of assumptions related, that have NO BEARING on the whole quote were put forth against me... I was using a 1 time occurance to illustrate something that was totally lost in what ensued as comments.... It was an example how lazyness contributed to the problem and how in the end with enough understanding, it was a pretty damn good solution and accepted by most players. Often I read posts 4-5 times, or as many times as I feel necessary to gleam the right jist of a post, obviously when they just don't make sense......
Again, if the majority of respondents are not interpreting your words the way you want them to, that is your flaw, not theirs. If you have comprehension issues that require you to read things multiple times, good on you for recognizing it and dealing with it. Most players should not have to read all messages several times, even if that would result in a different interpretation (which I doubt).

I'm not being stupid, I completely understand .... those who have the power wanna keep it, no matter to what degree that has the potential to hurt the game itself....
You keep asserting this without evidence. I know it's common in lots of games (most of which ware way more competitive) but you shouldn't let your past experiences led you to asserting things as facts when you have no support for it. You've provided nothing that indicates how the "fairness indicators" favour larger/experienced players, or how removing them will help new players. I think the exact opposite is true. A player in chapter sixteen can post just as many uneven trades as a player in chapter one, and from my point of view, without the indicators, the new players are more likely to take an uneven trade (that they don't realize isn't even) than an experienced player is, then quit in disgust when they realize they've been bled of all their goods.

I saw the thread on event tasks, and how it used to be random, but then ppl would do the same task multiple times in a row, so it was hard coded, then released ahead of time, so to me... there is NO challange to those events whatsoever, other than how many hrs a day can you play to achieve the end goal..... if the randomization was done differently, then both problems dissappear..... no tasks keep repeating, and also no task is known ahead of time... that takes a skilled programmer to accomplish.... I also bet , then the std complaint will end up being, but now its too hard, or I don't have 18 hrs a day to play so I cannot complete the quest...... thats not a factor of it being random or not, it has to directly to do with , if the event was structured to the 4 hr a day player, or the 14 hr a day player.....
You've seen a small part of the history of events, and interpreted it incorrectly. Events started as hard coded, not random. Then they added daily quests beside the main series. Then they tested random quests (which they implemented poorly) and at the same time they tested endless quests, (which they also implemented poorly and which were apparently (in combination with the partiuclar chest results from event currency) easy to game for a huge result). Then they went back to fixed quests and added the extra daily tasks on the tail end instead of running them simultaneously. They have never released the quests ahead of time, but they do run them on beta first for a couple of weeks, which is why the hard-coded lists become known to players on the live servers a couple of weeks before they drop. Virtually every event for the last two years has seen a new quest system, and they will probably still be tinkering with it for the life of the game. I happen to think they are doing a poor job of it, but I feel like it is inconsequential (Though it bothers me when they screw up so badly that the people who are ready to game things get a substantial advantage over everyone else). That's why I favour doing away with the Zodiac bears, even though I have one fully leveled. )Not that any of that relates to the trading system or its fairness.)

The misinterpretation you tacked on the end has already been answered previously, so I'll leave it off this one. I do wish that if you're going to keep misinterpreting my opposition to some of your ideas as opposition to you, that you would apologize for not understanding me. :)

We can still easily have a solid logical debate any time you want to debate specific mechanics and methods as opposed to how other people are out to protect their privilege and don't understand micro vs macro economics and fail to understand you all the time and don't acknowledge your experience and behave immaturely.
 

Darielle

Well-Known Member
Oh gosh, Ashrem you brought back so many memories with this post. Turn based message games ... I was in love with Starcross, Zack McCracken, Maniac Mansion, Bard's tale, and more. I think Starcross was the earliest for me because it didn't even have the player moving, just messages. I played that thing constantly. The good old TRS 80 was cool too ... that's not what I played Starcross on, I don't think, but yeah, the memories are flooding back. I'd give anything if I could find Starcross now ... I'd love to play that again.
 

AtaguS

Well-Known Member
Are these the early PC games that are all text based and you have to make decisions about going left or right...into the cave or toward the stream, etc? They had such beautiful descriptions and I'd get lost in those for hours.
Maaaaan I loved those.
 

Ashrem

Well-Known Member
Are these the early PC games that are all text based and you have to make decisions about going left or right...into the cave or toward the stream, etc?
Yep. One of the early ones that kept my attention was Black Sanctum. You had to figure out ahead of time to get some pine needles from outside, because once you wandered around a bit you got snowed in and couldn't retrieve them.
 

LoriMaxine

New Member
Are there just a bunch of horrible, selfish people who play this game, or am I just missing something? It is a rare thing to find a two-star rated trade. I try to make sure mine are at least two stars. Am I just stupid or what? I am pretty new to this, and I don't understand.
Some Fellowships post no-star absolutely ridiculous trades to help the members in our Fellowship, knowing no one else in their right mind would touch it with a ten foot pole.
 

samidodamage

Well-Known Member
@LoriMaxine
That post you quoted is from 2016; the trade system has been improved a great deal since then. This old thread got necro'd, then turned into an attack on the current trade system and I'm sorry it confused you.
We absolutely do the same thing in the FS's I'm in to help each other when we can. But I don't think those trades are the ones being talked about since FS members clear them as quickly as they can; it's not like they clog up the trader for days.
 
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