Unhappy w/rebooting, harder battles? What gives?

[DeletedUser9307]

Are you trying to commit game suicide? Because your customer satisfaction just hit a new time low.

The battles were so much harder, the negotiating out of playing them was extortion levels. it was just awful and humiliating. If you don't lighten up the tourney for the so-so fighters, you will lose your following. Once you make it too hard to succeed, why would be people stay and just torture themselves. I am a great fighter. I was only able to complete about 8 provinces before negotiating and by province 11 it was constant negotiation. I place in the top 10 in my world almost every week. You have a huge problem on your hands and you need to fix it asap. Your market share will drop and you won't get them back. I have my own business in the gaming community. I know what I'm talking about.

If you look at the overall leaders, and I'm about to come in first (probably) in my world, my usual competition had problems too. People don't have the kind of money it will take to do these battles. You are pricing your game into a death spiral.

You already had a huge problem with the game locking up and everyone rebooting constantly. We can't communicate well if the instant chat is down. And when you made the battles tougher without fixing this first, you committed one huge storm of player disatisfaction.

Once you start hemoraging customers, it will become a tidal wave. The top FS's will start cannibalizing and poaching. Fix it now or this game will fall apart. But I like the game. I adore my FS. We've become great friends. If they leave, my heart goes with them. You've taught these FS's how to work together to accomplish FA's and other endeavors. They bonded. That's a problem now for you. Cause if they start leaving, others will go with them. it's the mob mentality. I hope you fix this, I really do. I want my group to stay together. But as ArchMage, I'm telling you my FS is in an uproar right now about this.

 

[Ashrem]

The battles were so much harder, the negotiating out of playing them was extortion levels. it was just awful and humiliating. If you don't lighten up the tourney for the so-so fighters, you will lose your following.

They didn't change combat recently. Certain provinces are harder due to the particular mix of bad-guys. Dust is a difficult province. Always has been, always will be. The next easy province is marble if you want to wait for one that is not so frustrating.

 

[The Unbeliever]

They didn't change combat recently. Certain provinces are harder due to the particular mix of bad-guys. Dust is a difficult province. Always has been, always will be. The next easy province is marble if you want to wait for one that is not so frustrating.

It's less the changes and more the fact that the tournaments use squad size researches to determine #'s of troops required...

I help my dad fight his cities, because he utterly hates & reviles the game's combat system.
His biggest city is in S&D's, while his smallest is mid-way through Fairies.

His Fairy city is miles easier to fight through, and that's as an elf city that still doesn't have an actual Mage unit as he's only just finally unlocked Blossom Mages! (but still needs to fin time to begin recruiting more than a bare handful)
The S&D's city though is a right nightmare to fight, even in the so-called 'easy' weeks like marble/crystal/silk, simply because the squad sizes are so massive that I lose 'oodles of units no matter how smart I fight... The only way I can finish combat with very minor losses is the odd time that the enemy gets massively terrain screwed and thus, effectively can never get more than 1 unit into attack range vs. my 5.

Fixing tournaments requires Inno to stop using Squad Size techs as the determining factor, because all that does is punish players for advancing in the tech tree.
Researching ANY tech should **never** mean that you're actively hurting yourself!

I don't really have any brilliant ideas how to 'fix' the tournament difficulty, but at the very least Inno needs to;
a) Perhaps use current Chapter progress to determine the enemy squad size, thus making Squad size techs a boon vs. completely shooting yourself in the face?

b) Don't start putting in 3* enemies until at least province #8-9 or so!! (seriously, how is it in any way fair that late Ch3/early Ch4 players who don't even have all 2* units available yet, suddenly get murdered by 3* super enemies?!)

Hope that made some sense?!

 

[bkbajb]

The game evolves and the players need to evolve also. Cannot always be easy

 

[The Unbeliever]

The game evolves and the players need to evolve also. Cannot always be easy

There's 'easy', and then there's 'artificially hard because the developer is just stupid'...

In Fire Emblem for example, choosing to play on 'Lunatic + Classic' mode is deciding to play the game at a really high & very challenging difficulty. (more enemies per mission + they have equal/better skills + perma-death)

What we have with tournaments though, is akin to playing Fire Emblem on 'Hard' (ie: 'normal') setting, but every single you level up one of your characters, suddenly the enemy jumps up +10 levels & your own stats actually decrease, because... "reasons".
And for added lols, the rng mechanic will be inverted so that you're just completely beyond screwed vs. only royally screwed!

 

[bkbajb]

There's 'easy', and then there's 'artificially hard because the developer is just stupid'...

In Fire Emblem for example, choosing to play on 'Lunatic + Classic' mode is deciding to play the game at a really high & very challenging difficulty. (more enemies per mission + they have equal/better skills + perma-death)

What we have with tournaments though, is akin to playing Fire Emblem on 'Hard' (ie: 'normal') setting, but every single you level up one of your characters, suddenly the enemy jumps up +10 levels & your own stats actually decrease, because... "reasons".
And for added lols, the rng mechanic will be inverted so that you're just completely beyond screwed vs. only royally screwed!

I do not let these "changes" bother me. It is a free game and I go with the challenges. It would get boring in my opinion if they did not make it more difficult and I enjoy the challenge.

 

[Deborah M]

"Allows you to fight with bigger armies, which will make fights easier" is what it says on the squad size upgrade. Seems to me it gets more difficult with each upgrade. I'm pretty sure I have also recently read that this is the case. Since I don't think the tournament is worth wiping out all of my troops I can produce and wiping out ridiculous amounts of goods to cater, they just don't seem worth it to me.

 

[DeletedUser9247]

Highly unlikely they will change the rules on that. This game has to be ongoing and constantly pushing you to buy diamonds- the more you loose the better. Why do you think we got "the units pack" offer not so long ago? Feelings of accomplishment or warm fuzzies of satisfaction and superiority are not good for their business...unless they're caused by using diamonds. So basicly this game is set to punish you in every way until you break and buy, BUY! BUY! BUY!

 

[samidodamage]

It's less the changes and more the fact that the tournaments use squad size researches to determine #'s of troops required...

Researching ANY tech should **never** mean that you're actively hurting yourself!

I've seen threads discussing this very topic, but can't find one right now. If I remember correctly, most players who posted agreed with you. To my knowledge there has been no acknowledgement or response from the devs on this game mechanic. I began skipping all optional squad size upgrades in Dwarves (and making sure to have the required guest race goods to activate before leaving the chapter in case they ever change this and I need to go back and get them). I'm now early Woodelves and while things haven't gotten easier, the increase in difficulty seems to have slowed down. The difficulty of map province battles has not yet increased significantly. I fight almost 100% of those. If I ever decide to have a 2nd city, I'll skip every optional squad size upgrade in the research tree!

 

[Deborah M]

I'm confused I remember very well when they forced people to go back and finish anything on the prior research that wasn't done before they could progress. I know I had skipped a couple that didn't have anything dependent on doing them so I had to go back. There were some really unhappy people at the time in the FS I was in!

 

[samidodamage]

Found the thread I was thinking of about SS upgrade effect on tournaments:
https://us.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/should-tournaments-be-based-on-squad-size.13168/
Here's a quote from Soggy in that thread that sums up the current mechanic perfectly for me:
Under the current system, a player who skips all optional SS techs has the same catering costs in the middle of chapter 11 as a player who doesn't skip any has in early chapter 9-- Not a fan.

@Deborah M I can't imagine I'd be happy if I have to go back and finish them; but I would accept it if it meant progression in the tech tree no longer penalized me for completing research. That just seems backwards to me. I try to keep in mind that anything can change at any time, though. Right now skipping the techs is the best thing for me to do. Many of them already have the kp finished, they're just not activated (that gives me a quick answer to event quests where I need to complete a tech if I'm tech locked in a guest race). I doubt they're going to change it, but I stockpile the guest race goods 'just in case'. Otherwise, if they were to change it, I'd have to build guest race stuff for Dwarves (or whatever) to produce the stuff to activate it. Stockpiling is pretty easy to do while I'm working on the next chapter's Advanced Scouts. Then, I screenshot the portal while hovering over it and save it so I know what goods are there as you can't 'see' them even though you have them once the portal is gone.

 

[Ashrem]

I can't imagine I'd be happy if I have to go back and finish them; but I would accept it if it meant progression in the tech tree no longer penalized me for completing research.

There's a tradeoff. You can have larger squad sizes, and have an easier time fighting in the provinces, or you can have smaller squad sizes and have an easier time in the tournaments. That is a strategic choice, and is the same choice for everyone. People who do all the techs are not being disadvantaged, they are trading away an advantage in the tournaments to gain an advantage in expanding their map. That is perfectly reasonable. If there was only one sure way to succeed, then everyone would do the same thing, and the game would be less interesting.

 

[samidodamage]

@Ashrem Thanks, I hadn't looked at it like that.
For me, the world map is much less costly to fight than the tournaments. I'm doing okay in tourneys; primarily fighting through the 4th round. Sometimes there will be some I lose in 4, but not often. The 5th rounds are a crap shoot, lol! But, I haven't neglected my goods, so catering is always an option. I've not taken optional SS techs starting in Dwarves, now in early Woodelves and the most it's done for map provinces is make some go from very easy to easy. That may be related more to my obsession on exploring exactly the number of provinces for the next chapter and no more. I tend to leave the last 8-9 scouted and not completed until after finishing the AW tech at the end of the chapter. I get annoyed if I have to even scout an extra one (for an event quest or such) before the next advanced scout is activated. So, yeah, obsessive. I'm sure that's why I hadn't noticed there was a trade off of any significance.

 

[Ashrem]

Exactly. I never even bother to try fighting in the provinces, because I always lose. I am able to fight pretty well in the tournaments, but the provinces are 100% catered.

 

[SoggyShorts]

There's a tradeoff.

It's not a very even trade-off though, that's what I don't like.
1. A lot of players aren't even aware of the mechanic, so it's often not even a "choice"

2. There is a limit to how much you can fight on the world map

• Difficulty increases until you reach near impossible fights
• Once you hit 457 provinces you longer get expansions, severely reducing the reward for clearing on the map
• Scout times limit how many provinces you can clear per week

3. Most squad size "upgrades" have no choice involved. For example in chapter 12 even if I skip the 1 tech that is optional, my squad size will still increase by 22.8%

The feeling of becoming "better" as you progress through games is an important part of why people play them. It's why we love getting a better sword in an RPG, or unlocking better units in an RTS, and better buildings in a city simulator. Even if the game continues to throw more challenging enemies at us, if it is offset by my character/army/city getting better, then it all works out.
What doesn't work for me is knowing that by completing chapter 12 I will become worse at tournaments than I was when I started. Yes, I will increase my ancient wonders to enhance my army, but not enough to make up for 22.8% higher losses, not even close. (e.g. I would need to upgrade my monastery from level 6 to level 28 which isn't even possible)

 

[Ashrem]

Nobody's ever happy with everything in any game, and everybody feels like they should be. That's pretty much the definition of humankind, and especially first-world problems. I'm out of energy for Elvenar, and for discussing it on the forums.

 

[DeletedUser5800]

It's not a very even trade-off though, that's what I don't like.

Not even close... not even in the same universe that close once passed near thousands of years ago. It more like a trick than a choice, anyone that understands it fully would choose tournaments so anyone that "chose" world map got tricked, it has a cap, tournaments are forever, the end. No matter what math you do when the benifit of one has a 2 year life span and the benifit of the other has an until they run everyone off and shut down the game (so what? like 3 1/2 yr ) life span how is it is a "choice"? Even if the world map let you keep gaining expansions it would be like 12 per at 60+ hrs so a month to gain 96 relics and 96 KP... compared to the gains that could have been made in 4 tournaments... there is no choice there, just a trick they blatantly misinform people about.

 

[SoggyShorts]

Nobody's ever happy with everything in any game, and everybody feels like they should be. That's pretty much the definition of humankind, and especially first-world problems.

I really don't think that is a fair response at all to what I posted. Normally you try to be a voice of reason on these forums, but this time when I accurately point out a flaw in the game design (that many have pointed out before, and no one has made a solid case against them) your response is
"First world problems"?
I'm disappointed.

 

[Mykan]

It's less the changes and more the fact that the tournaments use squad size researches to determine #'s of troops required..

It was based on provinces and then they changed it to techs. Both have pros and cons as would any other alternate approach. I don't think techs is a major issue, I just wish they would even the playing field on techs like using the max tech researched rather than the sum of all researched ones or some other option.

"Allows you to fight with bigger armies, which will make fights easier" is what it says on the squad size upgrade. Seems to me it gets more difficult with each upgrade. I'm pretty sure I have also recently read that this is the case.

What you read is wrong, squad size does not increase difficulty in tournaments, it increases cost.

There's a tradeoff. You can have larger squad sizes, and have an easier time fighting in the provinces, or you can have smaller squad sizes and have an easier time in the tournaments. That is a strategic choice, and is the same choice for everyone. People who do all the techs are not being disadvantaged, they are trading away an advantage in the tournaments to gain an advantage in expanding their map. That is perfectly reasonable. If there was only one sure way to succeed, then everyone would do the same thing, and the game would be less interesting.

Great perspective, there are also more free troops for those who do more techs if they have the right wonders. Not enough to offset losses in tournaments but it is another benefit.

What doesn't work for me is knowing that by completing chapter 12 I will become worse at tournaments than I was when I started. Yes, I will increase my ancient wonders to enhance my army, but not enough to make up for 22.8% higher losses, not even close. (e.g. I would need to upgrade my monastery from level 6 to level 28 which isn't even possible)

Have you offset this by the increased production ability you gained from other techs in that chapter? Also additional free troops from wonders?
Not that I expect you to calc this, but if you haven't then the net effect is less than this.

 

[DeletedUser3507]

I feel Inno should have not made squad size the defining thing for tourneys, I feel that was punishing us that did them all.
And I hated it. It would be great if we could turn off all the optional ones we did.... That would be my fix to the problem.