What Am I Missing? AW Version

[DeletedUser9601]

It seems like there are a few garbage wonders, and I'm curious if I'm just missing the boat on why they might be useful. Any and all thoughts appreciated.

1. Enar's Embassy - 1 broken shard a week, plus 15Kish mana every time you scout (so 1-2 days). The shard feels worthless, since you can easily achieve shards in tournaments, and the 10-shard cap really gunks things up. The mana is decent, but this AW is HUGE (28 squares). Factor in the gold cost per scout, and it just doesn't seem worth it.

2. Thrones of the High Men - Ranking points and culture. The culture per square is junk, and the ranking is tied to your AW levels. Maybe at end-game its the best per-square way of getting ranking, but it doesn't seem like it would make a huge difference once you're in the hundreds of thousands of ranking points. Seems like another military AW to crank up your army for more tournament bonus points would be preferable.

3. Flying Academy - Free mages and faster Merc Camp training. Maybe not a "bad" wonder, but it doesn't seem great. I'd much rather have Needles, for faster Barracks training, plus light range damage. Admittedly, I haven't seen the Faineant (spelling?) Frog in action. So I guess if that was a good unit, you could basically make the Merc Camp units your "go-to" units, at which point the training speed would be useful. For elves, Blossom Mages are the only clear upgrade versus Barracks/Training Ground troops, so I don't know if I'd ever want to be in that boat.

There are a few wonders that I consider 'meh' (Crystal Lighthouse, Blooming Trader Guild, Maze of Dark Matter), but I can see the circumstances where they make sense. There are also wonders that I haven't progressed enough to evaluate at a high level (Elvenar Trade Center, Sunset Towers).

If you agree with the list, how can we improve these wonders? For Enar's, if Inno won't remove the 10-shard cap, have the AW bonus be that the cap goes up every few levels, maybe?

 

[mucksterme]

It seems like there are a few garbage wonders, and I'm curious if I'm just missing the boat on why they might be useful. Any and all thoughts appreciated.

1. Enar's Embassy - 1 broken shard a week, plus 15Kish mana every time you scout (so 1-2 days). The shard feels worthless, since you can easily achieve shards in tournaments,

I just built this because I build them all.
But that one broken shard a week is ridiculous.

There are a few wonders that I consider 'meh' (Crystal Lighthouse

Don't get me started

 

[Deborah M]

1. Enar's Embassy - I'm not in any hurry to upgrade this one. It actually annoys me to have a grayed out broken shard hanging there. I guess I have it and will eventually level it up because I have and want all the AW and all AW give ranking points.
2. Thrones of the High Men - This one the add'l ranking points aren't all that but added to the standard ranking points it is OK. I can definitely see why anybody who does not pay much attention to ranking points would consider this one a waste. I've said before that in a top FS I do feel like I have a responsibility to balance the ranking point aspect of the game. Besides, to me ranking points is just one of the things that make the game more challenging.
3. Flying Academy - I need all the help I can get on troops since I am not very good at battling. I played most of my game catering so....

Crystal Lighthouse is Bell Tower in Humans. I like anything that increases production so if neighbor help is increased then culture boost is increased.
Blooming Trader Guild I think is a must. Anything that increases power of guest race portal is great!
Maze of Dark Matter is good for mana. I rarely run out of mana and I'm confident that is partly due to the Maze since I have had to sell off a bunch of smaller mana buildings.
Elvenar Trade Center is a must for me for seeds but I just finished Elementals so maybe not so good until chapter 12.
Sunset Towers I don't have yet but expect to also be important for seeds. It would be nice not to have to wait & wait for seeds like I did at the beginning of Elementals.

Adding: Maze reduces mana decay and Sunset Towers reduces seed decay. That adds a lot to their value IMO.

The other thing is that some are must haves for the building images in the cliffs. I really like those!

 

[DeletedUser9601]

Blooming Trader Guild I think is a must. Anything that increases power of guest race portal is great!
Maze of Dark Matter is good for mana. I rarely run out of mana and I'm confident that is partly due to the Maze since I have had to sell off a bunch of smaller mana buildings.

So for Blooming Trader and Maze, I think both certainly are giving you something. I just am not sure if what they're giving is worth the city space (and the KP to upgrade them). And I'm not posing that as a rhetorical question, I really don't know
My gut says:
Blooming Trader is is 21 squares. Could I get 6% more guest race goods just building the appropriate buildings (Woodelves Fabrications, Halfling Farms, etc) in those squares? Obviously not something you can do in S&D, of course.
Same for Maze. Maze is 30 squares. Right now I have 800K mana. I've been techlocked in S&D for 3+ weeks, and I'm about to finish the last tech before Haflings. So arguably my mana surplus is at its height. I lose 80K mana a night on decay. Reduce that by 8.8% (level 1 AW) and I save 7K mana a day. That's less mana than 2 Arcane Libraries (which are conveniently 30 squares as well).

I suppose how easily you can level some of the 'meh' wonders up matters. And then there's opportunity cost: levelling my Martial Monastery from level 11 to 12 is 500KP. I could get BTC and Maze up to level 2 for less KP than that.

 

[The Unbeliever]

Flying Academy is a top notch AW for both Humans + Elves in any city that at least enjoys playing in the weekly tournaments...
For Humans, it means you never have to train Priests again, and will crush any tournament weeks that are focused on enemy Heavy Inf and/or Heavy Ranged units.

For Elves, the boost to the Merc Camp training is huge, since you'll be wanting to train plenty of both Blossom Mages & V.Guards... (yes, yes, Treant have more health, but V.Guards 2-range atk is miles better since they can actively avoid taking damage any time you actively attack with them)

 

[Deborah M]

OH! I didn't really think about levels. For instance, my Blooming Trader is at level 7 so 13% portal boost. Also, sadly I have resorted to wholesale trader at times during tournaments so 230% is helpful there sometimes. The Maze I'm not so sure about because it is huge. When I decided to build ALL AW part of my reasoning was that at least they don't change sizes so they will always be a given re space. Still, I have got to upgrade the Maze to make it worth the space and less concern about mana!

 

[DeletedUser9601]

For Elves, the boost to the Merc Camp training is huge, since you'll be wanting to train plenty of both Blossom Mages & V.Guards... (yes, yes, Treant have more health, but V.Guards 2-range atk is miles better since they can actively avoid taking damage any time you actively attack with them)

See, my problem with V. Guards is that they take 20% more damage from light melee (baseline, vs Treant 3, -20% vs -40%), and have no debuffs. So if I use Treants - yes, I will get hit with strike back when I fight light melee (the only unit we should really be focused on). But 1. that strike back will be at 20% baseline reduction, plus another 30% reduction if I have my debuff on the enemy. And then I'll get a strike back as well on the ensuing attack (VGuard 1 has no strike back).

I should spend some time in the ElvenArchitect combat simulator, but I generally find that fights with Treants suffer less attrition. Coupled with the Martial Monastery bonus being much better for Treants (my Treant-3 has 100K more health than my VGuard 1, so that MM bonus gets that much bigger for Treants). Maybe VGuard 2 in Elementals changes the equation?

I find VGuard really shines in fights where the terrain is not my friend, and the Reach2 let's me reach over an obstacle that would otherwise take 2-3 turns to walk around. But I doubt I'd exclusively choose VGuards over Treants. And my squad size (I think, I'm bad at this type of math) means I need 17 collections of the free mages to make a full squad. And its a unit (enchantress) that I don't even want that much of? It just seems like other military AWs would be superior (for elves at least).

Again, purely a discussion thread. Not trying to poke holes, just working through my thought process.

 

[Mykan]

I have to agree with enars and thrones. I have enars and am reluctant to remove it but the broken shard are a waste of space due to the lock limit and ease of procurement in tournaments. I also don't scout too often currently due to where my scout times are at and I am keeping that more for events which progress me along quick enough currently. That said the extra mana hit when i need it and the shard when I can grab it is nice. The mana is more on an instantaneous gain thing then a regular injection of mana, at least for me now.

As to flying academy I think it is a great wonder in terms of both bonuses. To speed up the merc camp and get free troops is very handy. I however am a person who uses my specialist troops all the time, main reason I don't use some of them is those from the training grounds as they take too long to train. The specialist troops are very good, especially as you reach the 2nd and 3rd upgrades. But if you have to factor in their ability and a significantly slower training time you will never use them.

The free troops is always great in terms that it frees up your barracks a little for training other troops whether different unit types or the specialist camps as you know you still have mages/priests coming in. On the weeks you don't use mages they build up nicely so there is freedom in your training queue that is granted by this wonder.

 

[Pheryll]

I think mountain halls may end up being a trap. The focus shifting from goods to sentient goods has me a little worried about its late game impact.

 

[DeletedUser9601]

I think mountain halls may end up being a trap. The focus shifting from goods to sentient goods has me a little worried about its late game impact.

I feel the same way. I have mine at level 6, and it will be staying there for the foreseeable future.

 

[DeletedUser5800]

It seems like there are a few garbage wonders

I pretty much agree with you but I think it has a lot to do with playstyle, one persons garbage wonder is another's gold or whatever.
A couple like the Flying Academy that I don't like enough to keep and level but I do like to build and sell for broken shards I will time so that they are helpful for a week in specific tournaments just so the trashing has a little extra bonus but were I more into every tournament instead of whenever I happened to feel like paying attention they would be more desirable.

I've had the Blooming Trader space vs just having additional settlement argument enough times to know better than to have it again. The people that like it swear by it, I think it's entirely wasteful (especially if you like to wait a few weeks between chapters using the space to farm a mana surplus, do an event, redesign, etc. like I do), there is no convincing anyone to change their mind either way.

I like the idea of Thrones but until they make RP actually mean or do something (which I hope does happen at some point) I'll leave it unbuilt.

A further example of what is to one isn't to another would be that the Dragon Abbey is my absolute favorite. Paired with a Lv.5 Academy running NH spells around the clock just to use them as a mana bank has been the single greatest thing I have ever done for my playstyle. When getting spells from the tournament also with it at Lv5+ you almost don't need to waste any space on anything else to produce mana... mine is doing like 60 per square per hr not counting tournament spells... waaaay more than any other building... but if you have a Lv 2 Academy and actually need to make manufacturing spells it becomes far less beneficial.

It's all about style, no matter which one I've ever said was pointless someone else told me why they loved it, and no matter which one I love someone tells me why it's pointless... with the only exception of the Golden Abyss... anyone paying any attention loves it.

 

[Deborah M]

I also love the Dragon Abbey. Sadly it is not quite as great as it was. I also have Level 5 Academy but the T4 put the brakes on using it 24/7 for me I know my next T4 will be crystals so that pretty much stopped me completely on mfg spells until I can build up 700. I'm just happy I always have a ton of PoP spells from tournaments if I run low on mana.

 

[Mykan]

The population benefit is likely to keep mt halls useful even if goods change, but you still need them for tournaments so we are yet to see how it pans out. The other thing to keep the mt halls potentially around is the KP/population gain of it and the abyss. I have not run the maths but I assume at some point the KP will be more efficient in the mt halls then the abyss. Due t the size difference though you may find a good 10+ levels between them if your only levelling them for population.

with the only exception of the Golden Abyss... anyone paying any attention loves it.

Except if they say they love it prior to chapter 5ish they either aren't paying attention or it falls back into the some do and some don't category. But generally no one complains about more pop, more coins and a small space.

 

[The Unbeliever]

Except if they say they love it prior to chapter 5ish they either aren't paying attention or it falls back into the some do and some don't category. But generally no one complains about more pop, more coins and a small space.

Honestly, I think pretty much ALL the AW's are bordering onto 'garbage tier' buildings much before late Ch.5 or so, since everything is now %-based in the various boosts...

When I was watching my dad begin his SA-world city, which was shortly *after* the big re-balancing/change of how AW boosts worked, he was always complaining about "useless" his GA was, as he built it early Ch.3
Granted he accidently sold it when re-organising his city heading into Ch.5 (and yes, being the complete little **** I am, I laughed slightly! ), but overall, he barely noticed the pop hit when he made that little blunder... Even though it was Lv8 at that time, it still was giving less than a basic Residence was giving, simply because he didn't have enough working pop for the % to mean much more than 'sweet-diddly'.

Of course, now that he's well into O&G's in that city and has it around Lv10 or so, it's amazaballs, and just keeps getting better and better with every level.

 

[kctanzen]

It is probably because I am no where near later game stage / experience ... I get the impression that my enjoyment of producing / trading, thus one reason I wanted the Mt Halls so much, may be impacted by a game change?? Did I miss something?

Other than the Golden Abyss (level 13 so far, haven't regretted that investment one bit at all), nothing else I have is more than level 4 yet == likely to be changing rapidly since I started orcs and don't intend to devote huge swaths of real estate to the mushroom farms. More time = more KP for wonders!!

I am also seeing the great utility of the Dwarven Bulwark == I will be able to remove one level 19 armory that was initially tasked to becoming another breeding grounds and move that population over to factory upgrades. That doesn't count the free troops bonus, either (no need to train light melee in barracks)

 

[mucksterme]

Here for your amusement is my current AW list

Tome of Secrets lvl 6 - 12 shards available
Golden Abyss lvl 21 - 25
Endless Excavation lvl 11 - 41
Needles of Tempest lvl 16 - 25
Martial Monastery lvl 13 - 35
Crystal Lighthouse lvl 12 - 23
Watchtower Ruins lvl 6 - 43
Thrones of the High Men lvl 6 - 43
Dwarven Bulwark lvl 6 - 15
Mountain Halls lvl 9 - 21
Prosperity Towers lvl 3 - 15
Blooming Trader lvl 9 - 21
Heroes Forge lvl 5 (two empty rune slots)
Shrine of Shrooms lvl 3 - 11
Enars Embassy lvl 1 - 0
Flying Academy lvl 2 - 3

I work on getting everything to at least 5 so I can stock up Shards to use for breaking when I research a new AW

 

[Mykan]

It is probably because I am no where near later game stage / experience ... I get the impression that my enjoyment of producing / trading, thus one reason I wanted the Mt Halls so much, may be impacted by a game change?? Did I miss something?

Not really. The pondering is around sentient goods in elemental chapter and how it might impact the Mt Halls. The bonus % mt halls provides is for basic goods not sentient and the tech tree requires sentient goods now not basic. So there is a change in dynamic and demand for the goods as well as supply. We expect more sentient goods (T5 and T6) with the next 2 chapters)

You still need basic goods for tournaments so those goods and thus the Mt halls bonus is not redundant. There is just uncertainty about its usefulness moving forward. As said above most wonders have those who love and those who hate them, this will be the same for Mt halls pre and post elementals with the option to change camps at that time

Honestly, I think pretty much ALL the AW's are bordering onto 'garbage tier' buildings much before late Ch.5 or so, since everything is now %-based in the various boosts...

Yep, those with fixed benefits are better earlier on, like needles, monastery, etc. Granted some wonders are still surprising decent early on. For me the ToS is the go to wonder instead of the GA in those early chapters. Free KP, decent supplies and your scouting fairly constantly. Whether you keep it late or not is up to you or just use it as a placeholder for GA when it is decent.

 

[DeletedUser5800]

I also love the Dragon Abbey. Sadly it is not quite as great as it was. I also have Level 5 Academy but the T4 put the brakes on using it 24/7 for me

Since I just make NH spells and trash them I shouldn't have a change of heart until T6 which I'm hoping by then it will be leveled high enough to still do the job without cutting into boost relics if I go back to making various spells and pay close attention to my relics.
As of now if we average the mana to 4K per spell I've trashed over 3 mil. worth of NH spells not even including any of the days that have past in the last few months or any other spells I have used. It would have taken 2 willows 10 more squares and approx. 6 more months to do the same.

 

[Pheryll]

I've been techlocked in S&D for 3+ weeks, and I'm about to finish the last tech before Haflings. So arguably my mana surplus is at its height. I lose 80K mana a night on decay. Reduce that by 8.8% (level 1 AW) and I save 7K mana a day. That's less mana than 2 Arcane Libraries (which are conveniently 30 squares as well).

Just to clarify, it is not an 8.8% reduction, but rather a reduction of the 10% decay down to 8.8% decay. This is 1.2% lower by subtraction, but in effect it is a 12% decrease in the amount of mana lost. So you save 9.6K mana a day plus you are generating mana.

 

[DeletedUser9601]

Just to clarify, it is not an 8.8% reduction, but rather a reduction of the 10% decay down to 8.8% decay. This is 1.2% lower by subtraction, but in effect it is a 12% decrease in the amount of mana lost. So you save 9.6K mana a day plus you are generating mana.

Thank you. This is exactly the sort of post that needs more attention. I feel like the math of a lot of the AWs is unclear (at least until you build a wonder), and that makes it hard for people to make good decisions about which ones to choose.