Wishing Wells

[ekarat]

https://gyazo.com/96b795a3a6751a10a552de5259374588

P.S. - This is precisely what I mean. 5 resources against 5 characters. It took 50 diamonds to finish this ONE encounter. If I finish the next 4 then I finish at high halls. Since I only have 70 diamonds, that's not going to happen this week. But just multiply this against how many encounters-- sometimes I get through without spending diamonds, but at least once per 4 encounters, I'm dropping at least 25 on one of them. Especially the end bosses.

First piece of advice: Your opening guess should include 1 of each resource, up to 5 different resources.

Why? This gives you more information than if you guess 5 coins. If you guess 5 coins, you only have 2^5 = 32 possible outcomes (combinations of responses -- each ghost either accepts it or says nobody wants it). If you guess 5 different resources, then assuming there are 6+ possible resources on offer, you have 3^5 = 243 possible outcomes(each ghost either accepts it or says someone else wants it or says nobody wants it). Since your odds are proportional to the number of possible outcomes, you're about 8x better off if you open with 5 different resources than if you open with 5 of the same.

 

[Nyrva]

I've tried with 5 resource guesses, I've tried with what I show on the picture. Either way 1/4 encounters minimum require 25 diamonds to win.

I don't know how people claim you can do the entire tower for only 50 diamonds without some kind of inside information from InnoGames.

 

[Deleted User - 1178646]

Apparently, Wells are no longer being offered - is there a replacement or something similar?

Other than the occasional crafting, is there any way to get Rune Shards?

Are there any more Seed producers planned? Even as quests in the Events, I don't see much, and nothing of import. I'm in Chapter 15 - will seeds not be needed as much going forward? Not that I'm ever going to get out of 15 because of the seeds - catch 22.

At anyone's convenience - none of this is urgent.

The entire spire is it's replacement.

It can offer up to ~>500 diamonds a week when both you and your fellowship reach the top.
and the occasional genie is also fun.

 

[Lelanya]

Hmm
Well, try offering more often the item that is the most precious. This will vary from one player to the next, and depend on chapter. For some it's mana or seeds, or the sentient good no one trades and you really need for the research tree. Offer less often the item you always have overflow.

Vary the order in which you first offer the goods
5 4 3 2 1
4 1 5 2 3
1 3 5 4 2
And so on.
Pay close attention to the clues you are given, it is often possible to suss out which goods do not go in certain areas, and by process of elimination which ones do.

Also: fight wherever you can. Raise your Sanctuary, use troop booster buildings, feed the Firebird and always autofight when you have a strong troop that is perfect for the encounter. For example, that troop you just upgraded, you know the one - it's at its strongest right now, find matchups they are best vs. This will always work. For example, are your opponents mages? Take wardogs!

You got this!

 

[Deleted User - 1178646]

I've tried with 5 resource guesses, I've tried with what I show on the picture. Either way 1/4 encounters minimum require 25 diamonds to win.

I don't know how people claim you can do the entire tower for only 50 diamonds without some kind of inside information from InnoGames.

There is no rule that forbids a retry,
If you can't find the answer in 1 try, then try again.

 

[AtaguS]

So if you can really do this for 50 diamonds, and not like me who had to spend 800 to do it the one time I tried, how is this done?

When I started playing in the spire I first took a few weeks to get my city up to the task.

• I looked at where my troops were weakest, and leveled up the AWs to strengthen them.
• I also saved up a good supply of troop boosters (Mage Multipliers, Unleashed Units, Enlightened Light Ranged thingies).
• I also got my sentient good and Orc supplies up to 20k each, minimum. If you have not unlocked those chapters yet then just focus on regular goods.

Then I headed in.

• I place a troop booster when I hit the Lab (but that's because the AWs I have keep my troops strong enough to fight in the first level without them...yours may need the troop booster by the 8th chest, as you say)
• I try to fight where possible. Since I only ever auto-fight, I have found that I win most often when the encounter requires I only use a single type of troop.
• When an encounter requires I start using 2 or more types of troops, I don't fight, and cater instead. (that's just been my experience...not a hard and fast rule but it has worked for me very consistantly)
• When catering....This is a puzzle of elimination, not a randam guessing game. It helped me enormously in the beginning to have a separate piece of paper at my side as I catered. This way, I could interact with the puzzle a bit more, and start to build a concrete view of what goods were now eliminated, and which ones were most likely going where.
• Tools and Coins are almost always needed, so my first wave of guessed always includes those.
• Then I go down the line and place the other goods in the remaining chests.
• When you get your first reply back, cross out the goods on your cheat sheet which are not needed. It helps to see it blocked off.
• Don't spend the 25 diamonds to keep guessing unless you are 100% sure you know the answer will be right. The loss of goods are quite easily recovered in your city, or in your trader. The Diamond losses add up that way. Withdraw if you don't know, and start again.
• With a booster placed, and if you have a phoenix polish it - I have been able to fight and beat the bosses without having to cater - when all three waves of encounters ask for the same type of troop. Go for it - it saves a bundle on goods and diamonds to fight the bosses.

Those are my best tips for you. If you want more info or help I'd be happy to do what I can, just shoot me a private a message and we can talk more about catering strategies, or whatever. The spire is a great addition to the game and gives out some really great prizes - it's worth figuring out in my opinion. In any event, best of luck to you!

 

[Kekune]

I second everything Atagus said above. If you want to see more videos of the catering, this series by MinMax was really helpful to me:

https://us.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/spire-diplomacy-catering-tutorial.24402/

There is an element of luck in negotiating the spire. But if you can wrap your mind around the logic puzzle and probabilities, you can limit diamond spending. It will never be cheap, because when you have bad luck you will have to decide to either try again or spend the diamonds. I choose to spend diamonds only when there are 6+ goods involved, usually at the guardians or boss in level 3. I have probably spent 75 total a few times that I don't remember, but 50 or less is my norm. I don't like to part with them, so if I run out of guesses I usually restart unless, as Atagus said, I'm confident they'll get me a win.

 

[Aritra]

Hmm
Well, try offering more often the item that is the most precious. This will vary from one player to the next, and depend on chapter. For some it's mana or seeds, or the sentient good no one trades and you really need for the research tree. Offer less often the item you always have overflow.

Vary the order in which you first offer the goods
5 4 3 2 1
4 1 5 2 3
1 3 5 4 2
And so on.
Pay close attention to the clues you are given, it is often possible to suss out which goods do not go in certain areas, and by process of elimination which ones do.

Also: fight wherever you can. Raise your Sanctuary, use troop booster buildings, feed the Firebird and always autofight when you have a strong troop that is perfect for the encounter. For example, that troop you just upgraded, you know the one - it's at its strongest right now, find matchups they are best vs. This will always work. For example, are your opponents mages? Take wardogs!

You got this!

Except for the fighting, all of this has become my strategy and works some of the time, including the 1,2,3,4,5 more often 5,4,3,2,1 and sometimes 5,4,2,1,3 for a change. If the initial offering yields 5/5 or 4/5 (sometimes 3/5 if I'm not feeling it) wrong, I X it and go in again. Yeah, I'd lose those goods, but when the choices are too many, I'm likely to lose more by seeing it through.

It is true that you can often determine by the clues, logic and elimination. I've spent minutes assessing a round before and very happy that I didn't rush it when the answer finally jumped out at me. But sometimes you are simply left with a shot in the dark anyway. I laughed about offering item more precious. I don't know if it is psychological or actually in the programming somehow, but there's always something I have lower than the others and really don't want to offer it. Sometimes my intuition says to do it anyway. I offer it and brace myself, but probably 7or8/10 times it's right (I have not kept records, just happened surprisingly often).

And, some days I'm more "lucky" than others. Just last Tuesday I needed eight spires. Failed to get to second offering a few times. Then was in but was not victorious a few times and repeat. Normally I'd walk away and try again the next day but I needed eight. Now, I was far ahead in the questline so that I had plenty of time to take the day off. But I got stubborn. I spent most of my Elvenar day burning inventory, and if the failure didn't stop me, being too low on a good did. I'd rebuild my needed inventory for it and have another go. Yeah... I was a sailor that day... My main point @Nyrva , is that some days are just worse than others and its important to know when to walk away and calmly try again later (don't do what I did that day).

Regarding diamonds, I've never used them in the Spire but am very happy when fifty show up in a chest. I typically end somewhere in the middle of High Halls, but usually by choice. I don't have big aspirations for conquering it, so I don't commit a significant portion of my resources for it. It's just somewhere I go to see what cool stuff I can get (and especially if I'm low on frags). I know there is probably cooler stuff higher, but I'm satisfied with high halls and focusing my other resources elsewhere. (Probably this level will change someday, but this is where I am now and I'm in no hurry).

Good luck!
I hear the view is beautiful!

 

[Iyapo1]

@Nyrva
I looked at this: https://gyazo.com/96b795a3a6751a10a552de5259374588

You wasted your first guess on all coins. Going into your second guess the only thing you had eliminated was coins. This is a very bad strategy.
Your second guess you eliminated nothing and yet you kept going, dont do this. Ever. It is expensive.


My general rule is: if 5 resources are being offered walk out if at least 2 things are not eliminated on your first guess.
If 6 resources or more are being offered walk out if at least 3 things are not eliminated on your first guess.

Doing this is hard on your goods and you will need to adjust your production to compensate. But it is way cheaper on your wallet.

Treat it like gambling. Set some rules and NEVER spend more diamonds than you win.

The linked videos were really helpful.

 

[AtaguS]

My general rule is: if 5 resources are being offered walk out if at least 2 things are not eliminated on your first guess.
If 6 resources or more are being offered walk out if at least 3 things are not eliminated on your first guess.

Great rule! The key to all the strategies I've seen, in this thread and elsewhere, is knowing when to walk away.
...and when to run...
You gotta
know
when
ta
hold 'em...
know when ta
fold 'em...

errr, you get the idea at any rate

 

[Darielle]

Hello,

So if you can really do this for 50 diamonds, and not like me who had to spend 800 to do it the one time I tried, how is this done?

From my experience, each character in negotiation is random, and what they want is 100% random. And if you place something down, right or wrong, (say 10000 stone), you lose it, period.

You dwindle down resources fast. Troops are no good beyond the first 8 encounters, as they become paper dolls, easily shredded like tissue paper no matter what you use. So what are your secrets? A lot of you who are saying "Oh, I do this so easy!"

Someone linked a YouTube link, but I cannot understand anything the guy is saying on the video, he is very low volume, and not in English (or it doesn't sound like it.) Is there a visual guide somewhere please?


Thank you.

What they want is "almost" random. In the upper levels, they're going to be more likely to want the T3 or more expensive items. In the lower levels, they will want less of the most expensive items. So yes, almost random.

I think your problem is that you are afraid of losing goods. I don't play without a lot of goods at my disposal, because I know I'm going to lose a lot of goods. I expect that. It's not something that I worry about. I look at it as if I am spending goods to buy diamonds. I withdraw a lot more than you may have thought to do.

Example:

There are 5 spirits and 5 goods, let's say planks, marble, gems, scrolls and mana. I give one item to each of the spirits. Let's say that ALL of them say "wrong item." I immediately withdraw. I don't play that game because I'm only going to throw more goods away. So I withdraw and start over again.

The next time, I get one green checkmark and 4 "wrong item." I withdraw again. That's not good enough odds to suit me. I withdraw and start over.

The third time, I get 2 "nobody needs it" and 3 "wrong item. Yay; I can do this one because I've eliminated two items. Now, I am working with five people and only three items. Let's say that the planks and marble were the "nobody needs it" items, and now I know that I only will need gems scrolls and mana.

So, let's say in the first round, spirit one got planks, spirit two got marble, spirit three got gems, spirit four got scrolls and spirit five got mana. Okay, I've eliminated marble and planks, so now for round two, let's say:

Spirit one gets gems, spirit two gets scrolls, spirit three gets mana, spirit four gets gems, and spirit five gets scrolls.

Let's say that you get spirit one: wrong item; spirit two, green check mark, spirit three wrong item, spirit four, green check mark, spirit five, no one needs it. Okay, you've just eliminated scrolls since no one needs it any longer.

You have two spirits left and two items left, the gems and the mana. Spirit one has already gotten gems, so spirit one definitely needs mana. Spirit three got mana already so you know that that spirit needs gems. You're done. No diamonds spent.

The first hand is CRUCIAL. I would much, much rather get "nobody needs it" than to get green check marks. Look at it this way. If you have 5 items and 5 spirits, and you get three green check marks and the other two say "wrong item," well you have no idea if they want one of the things that have already been taken by one of the other spirits. So in other words, in the second round, you are dealing with five goods and two spirits. Those are bad odds. However, if you get three "nobody needs it" on the first round and two "wrong item" from the spirits, well you just guaranteed yourself a win. Since there are only two items left that are needed, each of them is telling you what the other guy wants. I hope this makes sense to you. The key to winning without diamonds is to withdraw, withdraw, withdraw if you don't get at least one "nobody needs it" on the first round.

Of course, when you are dealing with five spirits and only four items, then it's so easy you don't even need a "nobody needs it" to win those. They're usually easy enough to win blindfolded.

When you have 6 or more items, getting two "nobody needs it" on the first round helps so much to increase your odds. I never move on to the second round if I don't get two or more of those with 6 or 7 items. I withdraw. It's a lot less expensive than losing 3 rounds of goods. But losing goods is inevitable ... it's simply an investment in buying diamonds, to me.

 

[Darielle]

One thing I would also add ... if you withdraw and then try again, offer the same items to the same spirits the next time. You can offer in any order, but try to keep the same order for the cater if you are backing out and just starting over. Since they randomize the goods each time you start anew, you will do best if you offer the same goods to the same spirits as you had before. It works for me, at least.

 

[Deleted User - 1178646]

Hello,

So if you can really do this for 50 diamonds, and not like me who had to spend 800 to do it the one time I tried, how is this done?

From my experience, each character in negotiation is random, and what they want is 100% random. And if you place something down, right or wrong, (say 10000 stone), you lose it, period.

You dwindle down resources fast. Troops are no good beyond the first 8 encounters, as they become paper dolls, easily shredded like tissue paper no matter what you use. So what are your secrets? A lot of you who are saying "Oh, I do this so easy!"

Someone linked a YouTube link, but I cannot understand anything the guy is saying on the video, he is very low volume, and not in English (or it doesn't sound like it.) Is there a visual guide somewhere please?


Thank you.

I am slowly updating my post on the EN forums with pictures, it's a copy of my dutch post that helped a lot of people
Today I updated negotiations.

You might need to make an account there to see the pictures, Once I finish there ill repost it here as well as it's just a copy paste but for now you'll either need to read it there or wait untill I have finished all translations there.

https://en.forum.elvenar.com/index....ow-it-works-and-why-its-good.12707/post-74940

 

[Aritra]

What they want is "almost" random. In the upper levels, they're going to be more likely to want the T3 or more expensive items. In the lower levels, they will want less of the most expensive items. So yes, almost random.

I think your problem is that you are afraid of losing goods. I don't play without a lot of goods at my disposal, because I know I'm going to lose a lot of goods. I expect that. It's not something that I worry about. I look at it as if I am spending goods to buy diamonds. I withdraw a lot more than you may have thought to do.

Example:

There are 5 spirits and 5 goods, let's say planks, marble, gems, scrolls and mana. I give one item to each of the spirits. Let's say that ALL of them say "wrong item." I immediately withdraw. I don't play that game because I'm only going to throw more goods away. So I withdraw and start over again.

The next time, I get one green checkmark and 4 "wrong item." I withdraw again. That's not good enough odds to suit me. I withdraw and start over.

The third time, I get 2 "nobody needs it" and 3 "wrong item. Yay; I can do this one because I've eliminated two items. Now, I am working with five people and only three items. Let's say that the planks and marble were the "nobody needs it" items, and now I know that I only will need gems scrolls and mana.

So, let's say in the first round, spirit one got planks, spirit two got marble, spirit three got gems, spirit four got scrolls and spirit five got mana. Okay, I've eliminated marble and planks, so now for round two, let's say:

Spirit one gets gems, spirit two gets scrolls, spirit three gets mana, spirit four gets gems, and spirit five gets scrolls.

Let's say that you get spirit one: wrong item; spirit two, green check mark, spirit three wrong item, spirit four, green check mark, spirit five, no one needs it. Okay, you've just eliminated scrolls since no one needs it any longer.

You have two spirits left and two items left, the gems and the mana. Spirit one has already gotten gems, so spirit one definitely needs mana. Spirit three got mana already so you know that that spirit needs gems. You're done. No diamonds spent.

The first hand is CRUCIAL. I would much, much rather get "nobody needs it" than to get green check marks. Look at it this way. If you have 5 items and 5 spirits, and you get three green check marks and the other two say "wrong item," well you have no idea if they want one of the things that have already been taken by one of the other spirits. So in other words, in the second round, you are dealing with five goods and two spirits. Those are bad odds. However, if you get three "nobody needs it" on the first round and two "wrong item" from the spirits, well you just guaranteed yourself a win. Since there are only two items left that are needed, each of them is telling you what the other guy wants. I hope this makes sense to you. The key to winning without diamonds is to withdraw, withdraw, withdraw if you don't get at least one "nobody needs it" on the first round.

Of course, when you are dealing with five spirits and only four items, then it's so easy you don't even need a "nobody needs it" to win those. They're usually easy enough to win blindfolded.

When you have 6 or more items, getting two "nobody needs it" on the first round helps so much to increase your odds. I almost never move on to the second round if I don't get two or more of those with 6 or 7 items. I withdraw. It's a lot less expensive than losing 3 rounds of goods. But losing goods is inevitable ... it's simply an investment in buying diamonds, to me.

Thanks for taking the time to write this out. This is more or less how I play (and described less well in previous post) and I appreciate your telling of it.

I don't assume you remember, but my first couple of months in the forum no one understood why I didn't just get frags from the Spire. "The Spire and I don't get along," I said. In every attempt I made in the first six months, I had so much failure and so much loss I simply couldn't understand why everyone acted like it was so easy and I couldn't do it. It made me feel stupid (and I know I am not). I could see the logic part, but too often I was forced shots in the dark (which I lost), and my inability to overcome really upset me. That's why I didn't want to talk about it at first.

Well, after giving it another chance and getting the hang of it, I learned two things that I wish I knew in the beginning. Part of my problem was entering the Spire with insufficient goods. I literally couldn't afford the spire or its losses. I now know how to manage my resources better and enter the spire better prepared. The other thing, and this is most important, is the thing about withdrawing if the first offering yielded very poor odds. I didn't realize this aspect and I probably suffered a lot of losses unnecessarily. (Also, with the withdrawing, I lay out my offering the same as the previous time because it switches it up, so my same set may fall better that time. If I changed it up and it changed it up, then the odds might not be better that time.) Also, some days the luck aspect is just bad and it is just as important (IMO) to know when to withdraw for the day and come back later.

 

[Darielle]

Thanks for taking the time to write this out. This is more or less how I play (and described less well in previous post) and I appreciate your telling of it.

I don't assume you remember, but my first couple of months in the forum no one understood why I didn't just get frags from the Spire. "The Spire and I don't get along," I said. In every attempt I made in the first six months, I had so much failure and so much loss I simply couldn't understand why everyone acted like it was so easy and I couldn't do it. It made me feel stupid (and I know I am not). I could see the logic part, but too often I was forced shots in the dark (which I lost), and my inability to overcome really upset me. That's why I didn't want to talk about it at first.

Well, after giving it another chance and getting the hang of it, I learned two things that I wish I knew in the beginning. Part of my problem was entering the Spire with insufficient goods. I literally couldn't afford the spire or its losses. I now know how to manage my resources better and enter the spire better prepared. The other thing, and this is most important, is the thing about withdrawing if the first offering yielded very poor odds. I didn't realize this aspect and I probably suffered a lot of losses unnecessarily. (Also, with the withdrawing, I lay out my offering the same as the previous time because it switches it up, so my same set may fall better that time. If I changed it up and it changed it up, then the odds might not be better that time.) Also, some days the luck aspect is just bad and it is just as important (IMO) to withdraw for the day and come back later.

I remember when I hated the spire too, for much the same reason as you did. I once told my archmage that I don't do the spire and will NEVER do it, lol. That was long before I got my first taste of success. Now I often go to the top; it's not really that difficult anymore. but it DOES cost goods ... no more than I can easily make in a day or two, but still, that's a lot because I make a lot of goods. But who cares? You can always get more goods. It's worth it to get diamonds.

Yes, I made the same mistakes, and learned from them. Atagu$ taught me so much, and I have her to thank for opening up this new side to Elvenar for me.

But even so, yes, I agree with you that some days are just bears. When I have to withdraw seven times in a row, I give up for the day and try again the next day or at least a few hours later (and it's funny; I usually get it on the first or second try the next day.) Luck is a big part of it, but you and I now have the skills to manage it without relying totally on luck.

 

[Aritra]

That was long before I got my first taste of success.

I think that was my turnaround moment. I tried again, because I knew I wasn't as stupid as I felt and that it was possible. I had to figure it out. It helped that when I reached that point, my goods production was much better (it wasn't bad before, just not quite developed enough to sustain yet). I knew it could be beat so just success at all wouldn't do it to convince me it was worth it. I had to do it with a better loss ratio. When I had my first taste of [repeated] success, I was able to see a different perspective, knowing firsthand (and not just assurances) that it wouldn't always be like that, either way. Since then, I have experienced more wins than losses, and I am better about knowing (usually) to walk away and try later (not then).

 

[Darielle]

You are better than I am, I usually drop 75 diamonds on the spire every week. For some reason I have to bribe the frog with 25 diamonds almost everytime! And the jerk at the very top usually extorts another 50 diamonds. Still, I am in gold and silver spire Fellowships so I always end up ahead.

Thanks; I always save 25 diamonds for the big boss at the top and 25 for froggie. However, if I've won diamonds, such as fifteen diamonds twice or 50 diamonds once, then I feel free to spend another 25 diamonds elsewhere, too. That gives me a net gain of anywhere between 100-250 diamonds weekly, depending upon whether the team made silver or gold, in addition to any extra diamonds (above what I mentioned).

I had one week, a few months back, where after I passed the first door, every single door guardian, all the way up the spire, gave me diamonds. The regular door guys gave me 15; treant and froggie gave me more (I think 50 each), and the big boss gave me 125. I was rolling in diamonds that day! Boy, you live for weeks like that, LOL. Although I have never won a magic workshop ... that's what I'm really aiming for, someday! I wish you luck too!

 

[tiG23]

so my curiosity is peaked. what are you using the diamonds on? (best use besides MA and 3rd builder)

 

[SoggyShorts]

so my curiosity is peaked. what are you using the diamonds on? (best use besides MA and 3rd builder)

Always keeping a little in the bank in case you need event currency is a good idea. 500 diamonds can make the difference between a fully evolved building or not.
Magic Workshops are a solid investment depending on your build, how many you get from the spire, and how many blueprints you get per chapter, but probably just a few.
The same goes for Magic Residences, but those have less value since you can get great pop buildings from events.
If I was in any chapter under 10 or so, I'd probably grab a 4th builder though.
Expansions up to a point are a pretty geat use too unless you are playing a bleeding-edge tournament strategy.

 

[Iyapo1]

If I was in any chapter under 10 or so, I'd probably grab a 4th builder though.

Honestly, I would not recommend a third builder let alone a forth. Not for a spire player who upgraded the MA. I am literally buried in speed-ups. My builders only build when I dont have the resources to start another building. And even then I usually finish the building off so it can start producing whatever.

@tiG23 I actually snagged premium expansions in the 20% off sale. So, for me MA, premium expansions(but only if you sit on province and tech expansions), magic workshops, magic houses.