"Do you really want to decline the quest? This cannot be reversed"

[DeletedUser3696]

I doubt they will make quests any easier to cycle through. The goal is to have a system where your city is self supporting with some help from fellows and neighbors. The issue of dead neighborhoods has been a thorn in the side for as long as the game has been going and the solution (hopefully) is just now getting some traction. The goal is a self supporting city with help form fellows and the hood .

Is it an exploit? It depends on how you define the term and also on how you are using the quests. From wikipedia:
In video games, an exploit is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers. (emphasis theirs) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_exploits

The devs know the quests can be looped endlessly but have left them in place (after much tweaking) to allow for the attainment of needed goods/supplies. If you are building in the way intended (self supportive) and still needing to cycle quests then the system has that band-aid in place for you. If you are building with questing in mind and using quests as a primary source of supply to cut back on # of workshops then you are venturing into exploit territory.

This issue has been ongoing since the game started. Here's a quote from October of 2015. The argument goes back further but I got tired of digging.

https://us.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/new-quest-structure.1053/page-2#post-7045

One thing that will always remain true.

If there is an advantage to be gained there will always be players who not only do it, but do it to excess.

This issue is not going away, and I find it amusing that some players want to make taking advantage of this easier. I don't know if the loops are the same for everyone (I doubt they are), but I need to cycle 24 quests to get back to the 13k supply one. It takes less than a minute to do that. So what's the big deal - I'm still of the mind set to rid the game of looping quests. My storyline quests are stuck in chapter 6 and I have no intention of doing them as they are pointless and irrelevant - definitely not worth the effort for me.

 

[Mykan]

This issue is not going away, and I find it amusing that some players want to make taking advantage of this easier. I don't know if the loops are the same for everyone (I doubt they are), but I need to cycle 24 quests to get back to the 13k supply one.

I believe they are the same, I have a list of the quests for various eras in my guide. From the small sample size I have these appear to be consistent.

 

[DeletedUser5800]

Is it an exploit? It depends on how you define the term and also on how you are using the quests.

I agree with that, I err towards exploit assuming the extreme which is probably not how many use it. On my beta experiment I just did 3 Encounters in a province a ring further than I should be using Quest and The Wholesaler! with no need to interact with anyone or even have a manufactory at a cost of 1,640 gold and 320 supplies, gaining 3Kp, 3 Relics, and 17 Steel in the process. Operating within the ring I should I actually made gains in everything involved. Now I'm sure that gets harder to do further along but the point being that 'in the extreme' you don't need anything but quest decline and a trader (especially keeping in mind that I didn't even do it in the most efficient way possible) to progress and any leaning in that direction causes less build reliance, less strategy, less time/money and is more exploitative and I can see no logic in making it easier to lean further in as opposed to further out.

Of course had this thread been named 'If you make a flawed system less annoying to exploit I promise I won't exploit it' Then I would totally trust that that included everyone that would ever encounter it and vote yes.

 

[Ashrem]

I don't suppose this is the place for a definition discussion, but I think it would be pretty far out in the field to call something:
1) of which the devs are aware and
2) haven't asked us not to do
an exploit.

Have the developers indicated in any way that they don't want people doing it, or consider it bad game-play?

 

[SoggyShorts]

Have the developers indicated in any way that they don't want people doing it, or consider it bad game-play?

Here's a quote:

.... Unfortunately exploiting repeatable quests became a 'way of life' for some players. They no longer built manufactories and supply buildings, and their cities were no longer able to function independently of quest skipping. That was never the way this game was intended to work. This was meant to be a game where players build fully functional cities and work together in Fellowships to help each other with resources they do not produce themselves.

In the beginning, quests are in place to teach a player about the game, and later they are to guide a player along the research tree. They are meant as a 'bonus' for playing and not as a reliable source of income.......

Granted, there hasn't been anything implemented to replace the looping quests, but to me it sounds like the developers don't love the current system either

 

[Ashrem]

I'd say that saying that's not the way it's intended to work is a bit of a cop-out that implies they're not certain it works the other way. They should come right out and say "We don't want you to do that."

(edit: 'cause I have to say, now that I've experimented with looping the quests, it's an entirely different game than I was playing for the first couple of months, and I'm spending a lot more time in game.)

(Edit 2: On a marginally related topic I note the poll at the top is designed with inherent confirmation bias. Personally, I'd have chosen:
Yes - Add a "Do not show this message again check box"
No - I like that the message applies a convenience penalty for looping quests.

 

[SoggyShorts]

@Ashrem
I think the developers will need to implement a fix to the balance of supplies before they can remove or even tweak the looping quests. Either by increasing workshop production, reducing supply costs, player movement, a new way to motivate players, or a combination of those(or something else). At this stage it seems to me that the developers allow it as a necessary evil until they can do better.

 

[DeletedUser5800]

I note the poll at the top is designed with inherent confirmation bias

I took that as an original assumption that everyone is doing it and the act itself is a settled issue thus causing me personally to take issue with that assumption and react with more hostility than I may have otherwise. I think this thread proves it is a far from settled issue and even newer players get split on which side to take and how far they stand on it. But I think we can all agree that a better system would be optimal and until then some amount of looping, while perhaps not necessary, is going to happen and maybe even justifiably. Even so I still would have voted no with your phrasing, not because I like that it inconveniences those who dabble in looping out of perceived necessity, but because it discourages over reliance even if only slightly, and I thought at least made a subtle hint at This isn't how to play our game.

 

[Ashrem]

Even so I still would have voted no with your phrasing, not because I like that it inconveniences those who dabble in looping out of perceived necessity, but because it discourages over reliance even if only slightly, and I thought at least made a subtle hint at This isn't how to play our game.

Perhaps I worded that poorly. Your position is the point I was attempting to make. The original makes it sound wrong to vote no. I was trying to gear the questions so that people wouldn't feel they were doing something wrong. I also voted no, and I resent that the question was worded to make me feel I was wrong for wanting to vote that way. It might have lead to a few people voting yes who wouldn't have, but for me it predisposed me to have a negative attitude toward the original poster, which is never the ideal way to start a conversation.

 

[DeletedUser43]

Granted, there hasn't been anything implemented to replace the looping quests, but to me it sounds like the developers don't love the current system either

And yet, we have been screaming about this since the game began. The game is too slow for most people. Oh sure, some people are happy with it, so I don't mean all. I mean most. The number one complaint the game has ALWAYS had is that it is too slow. When someone finally figured out you could use the quests to not sit there and wait all day to do something, the game became playable for many of us.

Think I am speaking out of left field? Well, just go look at what happened when they tried to remove the quests. The game died. This was the fastest they have rolled anything back that I have ever seen. They put the quests back. They reinstated them. They knew exactly how we all use them and they installed them again for us.

Every once in a while we have this ugly discussion where some people like to call it an "exploit" to use the looping quests. This is just pure player shaming. If you don't want to do the quests, then by all means don't. But it isn't exploiting anything to use the game AS IT IS DESIGNED. Now, if you want to talk about the dev's original "intentions" then you have a game that few of us wanted to play. We found a way to make a game that wasn't particularly enjoyable enjoyable. Moreover, it doesn't matter how it was originally intended but by now, two years later, they most certainly are a normal part of game play. Once they reinstated the questing system after they had taken it away, it became an intention.

Again, if you don't want to do the quests, then don't. But please don't come up with the horrible player shaming term "exploiter". No one is exploiting anything. They are declining quests that have a big giant DECLINE button. We have guides that teach players how to use the quests. We discuss it openly ALL THE TIME. There is nothing nefarious or morally questionable going on. It is tedious and many players don't want to bother with the tedium and I completely understand if you don't want to. But some people do want to use the quests and it is perfectly ok to do so.

Think you want to have the quests changed so you can only do so many in a day...they tried that. It didn't work. The game didn't work. The customers left.

This was a thread only to discuss whether or not to get rid of that stupid message. If you have some other way you want the game to be designed, then suggest it. But don't think you are the first person to think there must be a better way. We HAVE suggested all sorts of things that would make questing obsolete and NONE of them have ever been implemented. Instead, they came up with the magicless academy and the diamond workshops. THAT is the devs answer to this problem.

Consider this, now that the devs have the diamond workshops that they are selling and making money off of, why would they want to implement a new system that would make those workshops obsolete?

Also, I agree with Ashrem that a poll that sounds skewed is never good. Though in the case of the original post, I think it was meant as tongue in cheek. Sadly, I think the poll may have had a lot of negative comments simply because people were pushing back from what they felt was an attempt to skew them to one side or the other, not understanding that it was meant as being tongue in cheek. It is so hard to get subtlety across in print.

But I do fear that many people are voting no on this issue not because they are against the question asked, but because they want some mythical other solution that doesn't exist. Please only vote on the question proposed. Do you want a checkbox that allows you or anyone else to be able to not see that message again? Either you think that such a little checkbox is a bad idea or a good idea. And if you like that message, with this proposal you could keep seeing that message if you want. All you are being asked is whether or not that checkbox should exist.

 

[Devman]

This isn't how to play our game.

Sorry, but I never received the memo containing instructions on how to play your game your way .

it predisposed me to have a negative attitude toward the original poster

Seems to be the consensus . But it is not a logical reason for not making a sensible decision , no matter what the question is .

One thing is for certain , some of you take this "game" way more seriously than I do . Which I think is the root of the general disagreement in playing protocol . I'm just here to have fun . You should try it .

 

[DeletedUser5800]

I never received the memo containing instructions on how to play your game your way .

The OUR in my statement was meant as the developers and I clearly said,

I thought at least

obviously some people do not think the way I do and maybe I'm totally wrong but if I am than this,

That was never the way this game was intended to work.

,
is pretty confusing.

Also, I realized pretty quickly that this was an old wound that got opened somewhat unintentionally... but once it was opened there wasn't much to be done about it except let it bleed out until it closes again or some new info. is gained or changes miraculously happen.

That said, I have enjoyed the debate and personally gained new insights along the way which will forever affect my gameplay as well as opinions about it from here on. So I guess thanks for that.

 

[SoggyShorts]

@Bobbykitty
It's not player shaming unless you take it personally. Like Devman said, the tools are there, it'd be strange not to use them. Just like in any game, sometimes there comes a skill, ability, building, whatever, and it's simply better than doing it any other way. There is no shame in using the best way to get supplies, but wanting it to become even better could very well turn it into the only way that's feasible.

One aspect of the game is overpowered. (loopy quests)
There is a need for it because other aspects are underpowered. (workshops, neighborly visits)
To improve the game I would like to see the underpowered aspects get a buff rather than the already too powerful becoming even more so.

If they implemented a "do not warn" option, or even a "decline forever" I would absolutely feel pressured into tearing down all of my max level workshops and replacing them with level 1s. At that point since the time to cycle is gone there is no reason at all upgrade workshops.

 

[Devman]

The OUR in my statement was meant as the developers and I clearly said,

I'm sorry if I took that out of context , My apologizes .

I have enjoyed the debate

As have I

 

[DeletedUser43]

To improve the game I would like to see the underpowered aspects get a buff rather than the already too powerful becoming even more so.

Nothing would get more powerful. All that would happen is that a truly annoying message could go away. You are in denial if you think that a whole new game is a possibility as long as no one supports this idea. You are choosing between a system that doesn't exist and making the one we have better. This game changes all the time. Even if this does change, it doesn't mean that a new system can't be put in place too.

And if a new system is put in place, there will still be quests and they will still have this annoying message that none of us ever need to see again as long as we live.

You know, for two years people have been suggesting this simple idea and for two years other people have decided that they know that the game can be better and tried to block this idea. For two years people have been stuck seeing this message a thousand times over because people have thought they knew a better way for this game to run and yet it never gets changed. All that happens is that we are stuck with this message. It gets annoying as can be. So we are all stuck with this stupid message while others sit on their horse and reign down judgment. And if you think that isn't a judgment to say that people are "exploiting" the game, then I don't think you understand the term exploit. I don't care who you are accusing of exploiting something that is negative thing to say and I get pretty sick of people attacking players of this game.

 

[DeletedUser2757]

I would probably use an "opt out" check box to avoid seeing the Dire Warning of Doom at the prospect of declining the looping quests, but I really enjoy the pop up for each snowflake that says "Awesome!" I read it in Cartman from South Park's voice every time, and get a giggle.

 

[DeletedUser43]

Maybe they can have a pop up that allows you to hear the snowflake message twice?

Anything said in Cartman's voice gets a giggle out of me!!

 

[SoggyShorts]

I get pretty sick of people attacking players of this game.

In video games, an exploit is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers.

cities were no longer able to function independently of quest skipping. That was never the way this game was intended to work.

I'm sorry if the word exploit hurts your feelings. We can use "flaw", "work-around" or "snuggle-puff" if that works better for you.
Again, it is the system that is flawed, not the players. Have I asked anyone to stop cycling the quests? Of course not.

I don't care that people have been trying to fix it for 2 years, I say let's try harder, not give up.

 

[DeletedUser43]

I'm sorry if the word exploit hurts your feelings.

I am done talking about this.

 

[DeletedUser5800]

"exploiting"

I'm beginning to think you don't like the word exploit. LOL
I believe I opened that box so I'll address it. I didn't mean it as insultingly as you made it sound (maybe a little insulting but mostly just defining to the act) and I seriously did not know so many people found it reliant, as I have never had to do it. I just put PoP on the workshops and run 3 hr cycles all day about once a week, skip a days factory productions every once in a blue moon if I get in a real bind, have an endless excavation, about 30 gold hands a day and have done fine with 10 workshops. I didn't even know there was a shortage issue until this thread... at least not one that couldn't be countered with just a tiny bit of patience or better planning, but I am one of those weird people that likes to make a month from now plan and play towards it. I like having to plan carefully and keep all my buildings in balance with each other and always be finding another street square that is unnecessary to build one more shrub to get my culture off zero. I sell things off that are inefficient and arrange things in odd ways that are. The real game to me is all the math I do in-between the game itself and if I do it correctly I just flow right along with no problem and maybe that has skewed my perspective. Or maybe I'm just not big enough or far enough along for things to get that bad and freak out and start doing it, I was researching it when I stumbled into the old threads that shaped my current perspective just as this thread popped up so it was on my mind as I begin to slow.
I used the word 'exploit' because to me based on my experience, which I now know is apparently far from universal or even continuous, it seemed like kind of a cop out from doing the work (math/balancing/waiting) that makes this game worth playing to me and I felt was the heart of it.
It does now occur to me that some people probably just like making a city they think looks cool and playing with it and don't want to spend 10 hrs with graph paper, spreadsheets and a calculator just to wait on time to catch up with the arc they planned and that those two dif. styles and perspectives would drastically differ on something as simple as this little issue. To one it's just part of the game(the it's stupid not to do it attitude), to the other it is an affront to the game(exploiting!) ...when in truth it's somewhere in between and we just make it what we make it in our minds based on our style and this thread and the vote reflects that pretty well. So if anyone was truly insulted I withdrawal that slight intention and simply would say that in this tug of war between styles and perspectives we are both relevant and that little annoying message is just the center point between us. I don't know if it's removal would actually shift power to one side or the other nor if it would hurt or help if it did.
All I really know is that I personally prefer the math/planning/waiting so I voted against the chance to shift the center further away from that method and towards easier to avoid ever fixing the thorn to that method. It was personal and I don't regret it, but I do empathize with the opposite stance, kind of, at least better than before.