Cross Trades are nightmares for people!

[DeletedUser6890]

I haven't spent a bunch of time on the repercussions, but I don't think any actual adjustment to the game math is as easy as anyone thinks. I do think that the ability to filter out cross-tier trades (as well as all 0 and 1 star trades) is useful, valuable, and not something that can be manipulated to give an advantage.

On something as small as the way the stars rank out and the multiplication of adjusted goods? Yes, it is. Literally just change the multiplier. The same place that says "T1->T2 = x4" can be set to 2 instead of 4. That's the problem - that it's scaling in 4s instead of 2. This appears to be an independent formula that in no real way impacts the rest of the game. I can't see anywhere it would possibly tie into. Change the x4 to x2. That's why I said make the numbers 4:2:1 instead of 5:2:1 or 5:3:1. Tada.

 

[Ashrem]

On something as small as the way the stars rank out and the multiplication of adjusted goods? Yes, it is. Literally just change the multiplier. The same place that says "T1->T2 = x4" can be set to 2 instead of 4. That's the problem - that it's scaling in 4s instead of 2. This appears to be an independent formula that in no real way impacts the rest of the game. I can't see anywhere it would possibly tie into. Change the x4 to x2. That's why I said make the numbers 4:2:1 instead of 5:2:1 or 5:3:1. Tada.

Sorry if I was less than clear. The question isn't whether it is easy to change the number. The question is whether changing the numbers has deeper repercussions in terms of calculations that catch cheating or some other aspect of the game. Formulae for deciding how many goods you need to negotiate a province or upgrade a Main hall might be using the same underlying math. You might find that provinces need twice as many T2 or T3 goods after adjusting the "fairness" math. Just because it is trivial to make the change in the trader, doesn't mean that making the change in the trader will be trivial to the game.

 

[DeletedUser6890]

Sorry if I was less than clear. The question isn't whether it is easy to change the number. The question is whether changing the numbers has deeper repercussions in terms of calculations that catch cheating or some other aspect of the game. Formulae for deciding how many goods you need to negotiate a province or upgrade a Main hall might be using the same underlying math. You might find that provinces need twice as many T2 or T3 goods after adjusting the "fairness" math. Just because it is trivial to make the change in the trader, doesn't mean that making the change in the trader will be trivial to the game.

Incredibly unlikely and dangerously sloppy and lazy programming if that's the case. There's absolutely no reason that provincial cost ramping should or would have any correlation to the trader's calculations. You're working on a huge "if" to justify not making a change. Again, if the entire premise of the wholesaler can be changed in how it factors, there's next to no reason to argue this even if it does somehow impact other calculations. Even still, that'd make it more likely to LOWER the costs on base-level goods while elevating the actual use of late-tier goods. Because let's face it, gems etc are barely good for anything. I'm currently building gems faster than I build friggin' planks. If it actually made my gems naturally worth a crap and lower the need to freak out over starter-goods, I'd say that's a good change too.

 

[Ashrem]

Incredibly unlikely and dangerously sloppy and lazy programming if that's the case. There's absolutely no reason that provincial cost ramping should or would have any correlation to the trader's calculations. You're working on a huge "if" to justify not making a change. Again, if the entire premise of the wholesaler can be changed in how it factors, there's next to no reason to argue this even if it does somehow impact other calculations. Even still, that'd make it more likely to LOWER the costs on base-level goods while elevating the actual use of late-tier goods. Because let's face it, gems etc are barely good for anything. I'm currently building gems faster than I build friggin' planks. If it actually made my gems naturally worth a crap and lower the need to freak out over starter-goods, I'd say that's a good change too.

Reduction of variables is a standard in many programming jobs, and is in no way lazy or sloppy. It allows consistent deployment of changes across a wide array of sub-code. the fact that you want the trader results to be a minor add-on that doesn't connect to anything else doesn't actually mean that is the best way to do things. I also haven't said it's a fact, merely that it's a possibility. We know that the goods required to negotiate a province are calculated based on your progress in the research tree. Why shouldn't that math involve the base cost of a fair trade in terms of the number of supplies required to manufacture each of those goods?

You are assuming that the display of whether a trade is fair or not is a discrete "thing" that is its own justification. I'm prepared to consider the possibility that the fair trade calculation is integral to the game-play and the decision to display it in the trader is an after-thought.

 

[DeletedUser6890]

Reduction of variables is a standard in many programming jobs, and is in no way lazy or sloppy. It allows consistent deployment of changes across a wide array of sub-code. the fact that you want the trader results to be a minor add-on that doesn't connect to anything else doesn't actually mean that is the best way to do things.

There's a certain point in development that attaching too many things to one base equation is, in fact, lazy. Reducing reliant variables is one thing, but making unnecessary dependency on the same variables is dangerous. It's like saying it's smart to hook up your thremostat control to your light switch because it's cost effective and made for less wiring. There's reductionism and then there's just lack of forethought on what may need to be adapted later on. In a game clearly intended to be modified and changed later on, do you really think it is a good development display to try to attach that many things to such a potentially wildly flexing number when there's zero reason for them to be contingent on each other? No devil's advocate here, no semantics. Instead of vindicating, just think before you reply without taking the immediate knee-jerk defense, because this entire discussion evolved off of the suggestion that the devs attached an arbitrary needless amount of dependency off of a violently flawed calculation. If you're looking to reduce that statement to "I'm not really saying that", then the rest of this conversation is moot and doesn't need to be replied to.

Which leaves it at "There's still next to zero reason it hasn't been applied", with the best argument being "they didn't think ahead", and already subdued with "They've made more dire changes in the past (Wholesaler)." So again - by virtue of reduction, no reason to fall into this as a circular argument.

 

[Ashrem]

Again, you are assuming that they decided "hey, let's develop a formula and display in the trader whether a trade is fair or not."

I'm saying, it's at least as likely (and maybe more so) that they said. "Hey, we have this formula for calculating the value of goods across tiers that we're using to set the cost of negotiating provinces and for telling whether people are cheating by pushing goods to other accounts. We could use that to help players decide whether or not the trades are fair so new players don't take ridiculous trades without knowing better."

Neither of us knows which of those is closer to what actually happend. I think mine is more likely.

 

[DeletedUser5100]

... as an overnight patch. 4:2:1 seems right up the alley needed without completely choking off any ability to make personal decisions in the game.

I think so

 

[DeletedUser3122]

I don't think cross tier should be eliminated entirely, especially because I give the 4:1 trades for new members. But I do wish we could select what we want to see in the trader because honestly, I've seen wall after wall of cross tier and it's irritating. Those are not helping another player, they are helping the player that posted them maintain a higher rank, asking their neighbors or FS to keep their tier 1 goods but they, themselves don't do it. Personally, it seems like a style of FS management I would not enjoy.

 

[DeletedUser3122]

"Hey, we have this formula for calculating the value of goods across tiers that we're using to set the cost of negotiating provinces and for telling whether people are cheating by pushing goods to other accounts. We could use that to help players decide whether or not the trades are fair so new players don't take ridiculous trades without knowing better."

I think someone isn't very good at math. It became totally evident when they changed the price of diamonds

 

[DeletedUser6890]

I don't think cross tier should be eliminated entirely, especially because I give the 4:1 trades for new members. But I do wish we could select what we want to see in the trader because honestly, I've seen wall after wall of cross tier and it's irritating. Those are not helping another player, they are helping the player that posted them maintain a higher rank, asking their neighbors or FS to keep their tier 1 goods but they, themselves don't do it. Personally, it seems like a style of FS management I would not enjoy.

Honestly if we're talking about being able to control what we see, I'd love to at least be able to filter by star rating. While yes, this conversation does show that the system is fundamentally flawed for star ranking, what's worse is seeing all of my neighbors completely spam out my trading with 0 or 1 star trades. What's considered fair is already skewed, then you get the people who are trying to capitalize on the woes of the changed wholesaler by bombarding the line-up with marble for the low, low price of my soul and kidney.

 

[Ashrem]

Yep. In a fully robust system, I'd like to be able to set formulas myself, like only show me trades that are >=x:y in tier or >=a:b cross 1 tier or >=c:d for cross 2 tier.

 

[DeletedUser7406]

Being new to this game, I don't have the fullest grasp on the cross trading dilemma...I do know that I am currently trying to use my boosted crystal as trading material for steel and planks to better be able to upgrade my other factories - I believe I should be able to produce all the items at a reasonable level, but using my more valuable items like crystal to trade for steel isn't much different of a concept than what exists in the real world economy.

That said, I always make such trades in the "bargain" category to be as fair as possible. For instance, I am currently out of steel (and can't produce it very well at the moment), and I am asking for 550 steel in return for my 200 crystal. I don't see that as a problem - I get something I want/need, someone else gets something they want/need at a very fair price.

As I said, being new, I'm sure my perspective is far too simple...

 

[SoggyShorts]

I am asking for 550 steel in return for my 200 crystal.

That's not a terrible deal , and it should get picked up in a reasonable amount of time. There has been a lot of calculation and debate on how much time/space is required to produce each resource, and many agree that the "fair" ratio would be 400 steel for your 200 crystal.
Still, if players in your area or fellowship are mass producing steel and/or feeling generous you should be able to get away with 550.

 

[DeletedUser7406]

I don't expect large returns. My thought on boosted goods is they allow people to specialize and thereby should promote trading/cross trading, and as long as people keep the mindset of not trying to take advantage of others and keep solid 3 star trades as the goal when trading across tiers it should promote more fun in the game for everyone.

I think I'll move my price to 100 crystal for 200 steel. It's rare to see much more than 1-2 pages of trades where I am (Arendyll), so maybe I should make my trades in smaller increments? It might be that people either don't have large amounts of steel or they just don't need 200 crystal.

 

[DeletedUser6368]

I agree, "YES"

 

[DeletedUser3122]

I am asking for 550 steel in return for my 200 crystal. I don't see that as a problem - I get something I want/need, someone else gets something they want/need at a very fair price.

I can't speak for anyone else, only myself. Keep in mind, it will vary depending on someone's rank and how many goods they produce, if they feel it's a problem or not. That said, if I see a trade, like your example, from a newer player, I will pick it up purely to help them, because it does not help me (keep in mind, I'm currently rank 278). Plus I take it off the market to help other new players that might be struggling and not understand what cross-tier is all about.

It also depends which direction you're trading. If someone is offering 1000 tier 1 and requesting 250 tier 2, people are more likely to pick up those trades. These type scenarios are not usually problems for anyone.

When cross-tier trading becomes an irritant for some players, is when a person is asking 10,000 steel and offering 2500 crystal (for example). The reason they typically, but not always, do this is because they want to use land for tier 2 and 3 goods (higher ranking, valued, and producing buildings) and less land for tier 1, so they rely on other players to use their land for tier 1 to help out the higher ranked members. Personally, it feels to me like it's using other members.

 

[DeletedUser7406]

When cross-tier trading becomes an irritant for some players, is when a person is asking 10,000 steel and offering 2500 crystal (for example). The reason they typically, but not always, do this is because they want to use land for tier 2 and 3 goods (higher ranking, valued, and producing buildings) and less land for tier 1, so they rely on other players to use their land for tier 1 to help out the higher ranked members. Personally, it feels to me like it's using other members.

For me, I would like to be able to produce all goods at a level that is sustainable for the whole spectrum of gameplay (upgrading my manufactories, catering - because I still can't seem to win many fights, etc)...but that isn't really feasible. I have crystal coming out my ears as it's my boosted tier 2 goods, but steel and planks not so much ...and it seems steel and planks are what I really need.

I cut down the number of crystal manufactories to 4 to make room for a couple of extra steel and plank shops. But the materials needed to upgrade I still can't produce in any meaningful (not large, just decent) amount.

Using crystal, which I don't seem to have too much need for yet, to get extra base materials seems like the purpose of the boost system - promoting interaction and cooperation between players so the game isn't primarily a 'single player' game. But then it comes down to: Can players all see it the same way - using trades in a fair and friendly manner to help others as the in turn are helped?

I am actually guilty now of having that cross trade wall...instead of 500 crystal for 1000 steel/500 crystal for 1000 planks, I turned it into multiple 100 crystal for 200 steel/plank trade - not to create a wall of cross trades, but to make the trades more appealing for newer players like myself who don't have large amounts of tier 1 goods on hand but want to get a little ahead on the stuff I can produce as boosted but maybe they can't.

 

[DeletedUser2963]

@Finian

Not sure if you have seen this yet but here is a game guide
https://us.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/mykans-guide-to-elvenar.3966/

It gives really good info on the boosted system in the third section, town design.

 

[DeletedUser7406]

Iyapo,
Well, I'm in trouble. Part of the game for me is the aesthetic appeal of the city; hence my desire to have a variety of manufactories and not focus on just a production mentality for only 1 or 2 goods.

The aesthetic appeal is one of the reasons I think the travelling merchants with the Rise of Phoenix promotion are desirable - little pieces of character you can add to your town. They may not produce much, but they make up for that - for me anyway - in being just a little unique in appearance.

 

[DeletedUser2963]

@Finian The prettiest cities I have visited in the game are not boosted only.
Me, I have a borglike highly industrialized boosted only manufacturing monstrosity.