Adjust spire set goods output

[Kekune]

Speaking of voting, are we ready?

I've requested one, just waiting for Xelenia to respond.

 

[Ashrem]

It is a perceived imbalance tho, Yogi..... Unless you know what INNO is planning for the future, you don't know whether it is necessary.

We don't have to know. The only responsibility we have to the game is to share our perceptions. The developers will look at our perceptions and see if they agree. They're not going to make a change just because we ask for it (I hope). It's their responsibility to look at what we have said and requested, and identify if our information is accurate, and whether what we requested is an effective way of dealing with a confirmed issue.

 

[Xelenia]

Happy voting everyone!

Remember to behave

 

[Kekune]

Bump. Please vote.

 

[Darielle]

Good to see the vote up now. Great idea, Kekune.

 

[BrinDarby]

I would be in favor of replacing Moonstone Library with ohh Sunstone Library with different attributes. I only see catalysts, time boosters, shards and the occasional diamonds,teleport, gumtree chest... I have yet to see any set pieces available in Spire. I also would be in favor of offering more "set pieces" that could be substituted for a different resource production, that would need to be interchanged, but I do think the Con is valid on players/FSs that have already adjusted players/production due to the scrolls production. They might have paid diamonds or played longer in Spire than normal had they not wanted the MoonstoneLibrary set. I don't see punishing them the logical choice.
BrinD

 

[Pheryll]

I would be in favor of replacing Moonstone Library with ohh Sunstone Library with different attributes. I only see catalysts, time boosters, shards and the occasional diamonds,teleport, gumtree chest... I have yet to see any set pieces available in Spire. I also would be in favor of offering more "set pieces" that could be substituted for a different resource production, that would need to be interchanged, but I do think the Con is valid on players/FSs that have already adjusted players/production due to the scrolls production. They might have paid diamonds or played longer in Spire than normal had they not wanted the MoonstoneLibrary set. I don't see punishing them the logical choice.
BrinD

A set contains a limited number of buildings. Putting too many replacement buildings into the set can cause the set to favor a specific shape of building more than the rest. For example, if the 4x4 building replacements all had great attributes with their 4 links and the set featured at least 5 different 4x4 buildings, then one could construct with maximum links an arrangement with 12 4x4 buildings and only 4 buildings of different dimensions (like the 4x1 moonstone gate). That is, the links by themselves do not force a certain number or proportion of buildings, and adding more set buildings can cause certain set buildings to be disproportionately favored.

 

[Ashrem]

I do think the Con is valid on players/FSs that have already adjusted players/production due to the scrolls production. They might have paid diamonds or played longer in Spire than normal had they not wanted the MoonstoneLibrary set. I don't see punishing them the logical choice.

They don't lose any production, some of them just get different production. From the responses here and in game, it seems unlikely that more than a very small handful of people wouldn't be better off if they were producing Crystal or Silk instead of scrolls and scrolls don't vanish, 1/3 of players will still produce scrolls with the suggested changes. Shifting production between T2 factories for fellowships that find themselves a little short of scrolls after the change should be a matter of a week or two at most, and easily offset by the sudden influx of other goods which they can trade to help reduce the already existing glut, which won't vanish overnight.

Meanwhile, the current setup is already penalizing players who don't play the spire and have scrolls as their boosted good. Their cities have been devalued through no choice of their own, unlike people who have a lot of moonstone buildings, who chose that.

 

[BrinDarby]

@Ashrem ,
I have been here only 30 days, I am a very on-orthodox player... I value the creative approach.
Originally in AT I thought won builds or crafted builds went on when placed... the forum quickly
said no-no-no.... its when crafted/won that determines...
I made 2 prior bad "purchases" ohh well, I recovered ... but it make me super aware, of caviot emptor,
let the buyer beware.... and when/how I won/crafted things...
I can sympathize that some prizes are not what we all want them to be, me included .... but so far
all I see in spire is catalysts, boosters and the occasional diamond possible one.... ( what you get
from the community chests ) and personal chests are usually fragments or normal instants.

This in only my 2nd week trying spire and I'm 1/2 way thru I guess 1st tower....
I got past the 50 diamonds , I'm 1/2 way to the 75 diamonds..... so looks like 1/2 way up.
I have never seen any chance to win set pieces, so unless those are only in the Bonus boxes
( only got 1 didnt see choices, all I know it it was a mag resid. ) so where are these even avail ??
Just by reading thread by Mini-Max on Spire runs, I think in 1 week, I learned to cater thru
lvl1 and worst case senario, I pay 25 diamonds to win 50.... in my sleep... So why more ppl
don't @least do 1 lvl and bank 25 diamonds a week is beyond me.... last week when I realized
thats where to get fragmants for the MA, I was like whew... so thats where to get them.

As I'm noticing in the MA, the same things are comming around alot, I can only assume that
the dev team wants only certain stuff to be "winable/craftable" and thats ok, but variety is the
spice of life and makes playing alot more engrossing to play.
Why not either add more pieces that could change the production to the desired one, or just
have more sets rotate within the prizes for the Spire.

I'd really hate to spend the time I did on AirTraders, then set up my whole city around those
production additions, just for 2-3 months from now the attributes suddenly chg and I'm SOL.
Grandfather in exsisting Sets, and make the fix a new set or more pieces for the exsisting set
that could be collected and interchanged, because to me,.... this really sounds like...

I keep winning the same things, plz chg the attributes or set, cause I won too many so far.....lolololol
BrinD

 

[Deleted User - 1178646]

@Ashrem ,
I have been here only 30 days, I am a very on-orthodox player... I value the creative approach.
Originally in AT I thought won builds or crafted builds went on when placed... the forum quickly
said no-no-no.... its when crafted/won that determines...
I made 2 prior bad "purchases" ohh well, I recovered ... but it make me super aware, of caviot emptor,
let the buyer beware.... and when/how I won/crafted things...
I can sympathize that some prizes are not what we all want them to be, me included .... but so far
all I see in spire is catalysts, boosters and the occasional diamond possible one.... ( what you get
from the community chests ) and personal chests are usually fragments or normal instants.

This in only my 2nd week trying spire and I'm 1/2 way thru I guess 1st tower....
I got past the 50 diamonds , I'm 1/2 way to the 75 diamonds..... so looks like 1/2 way up.
I have never seen any chance to win set pieces, so unless those are only in the Bonus boxes
( only got 1 didnt see choices, all I know it it was a mag resid. ) so where are these even avail ??
Just by reading thread by Mini-Max on Spire runs, I think in 1 week, I learned to cater thru
lvl1 and worst case senario, I pay 25 diamonds to win 50.... in my sleep... So why more ppl
don't @least do 1 lvl and bank 25 diamonds a week is beyond me.... last week when I realized
thats where to get fragmants for the MA, I was like whew... so thats where to get them.

As I'm noticing in the MA, the same things are comming around alot, I can only assume that
the dev team wants only certain stuff to be "winable/craftable" and thats ok, but variety is the
spice of life and makes playing alot more engrossing to play.
Why not either add more pieces that could change the production to the desired one, or just
have more sets rotate within the prizes for the Spire.

I'd really hate to spend the time I did on AirTraders, then set up my whole city around those
production additions, just for 2-3 months from now the attributes suddenly chg and I'm SOL.
Grandfather in exsisting Sets, and make the fix a new set or more pieces for the exsisting set
that could be collected and interchanged, because to me,.... this really sounds like...

I keep winning the same things, plz chg the attributes or set, cause I won too many so far.....lolololol
BrinD

Imagine this, 30 day's ago you started with scrolls as boosted product.
Now 30 days later you have to quit the game, because nobody wants your scrolls, you need crystal and silk but since other players do not need / want your scrolls you can suck it up.

This is in short the current situation, I understand that you cannot grasp the current problem many players are facing.
The problem with this set is that you can get an unlimited amount of buildings and it only makes scrolls. this means crystal and silk players het there own scrolls in addition to the bonus production and they do no need / want yours. while you as a scroll boosted player a stuck with scrolls or scrolls.

In all other cases players get bonus +1, if the production is changed to bonus +1, each of crystal, scroll and silk bonus players gets a different type of good. crystal players keep scrolls, scroll players get silk and silk players get crystal.

This restores the balance in this game, so everyone can play this game again. and you are not depending on pure luck which bonus good you aquired when you started this game.

 

[Ashrem]

@Ashrem
Why not either add more pieces that could change the production to the desired one, or just
have more sets rotate within the prizes for the Spire.

The Spire is a cohesive unit. The top level is already an expensive endeavour for prizes which really aren't a decent return on effort and cost. Increasing the chance for level part-1 players to get high-value buildings either has to increase the chance for higher level players (parts 2 and 3) as well, or make those levels even less worth doing. I'm not a regular Spire player now, and I still have 12 libraries and 66 other spire buildings. They hardly have any exclusive value now, and will have less if they are easier to get. Adding more spire buildings on low levels is not the answer to anything even setting aside that their main purpose is to generate diamonds sales. Once you factor that in, they be insane to make the buildings easier to get.

@Ashrem
I keep winning the same things, plz chg the attributes or set, cause I won too many so far.....lolololol
BrinD

If you're trying to take a dig at me, you should be aware that as a Crystal Boosted player, the most likely change will not affect me at all. I will still be producing scrolls into the existing glut if they change to Boost+1.

 

[Kekune]

I made 2 prior bad "purchases" ohh well, I recovered ... but it make me super aware, of caviot emptor,
let the buyer beware.... and when/how I won/crafted things...
I can sympathize that some prizes are not what we all want them to be, me included

"Caveat emptor" doesn't apply to a situation where *other people* make the decisions. I could completely ignore the moonstone library, and I'd still be in trouble simply because everyone else uses them. My trader is swamped with people who ought to be offering crystal or silk for trade, but are instead offering cut rates on scrolls.

I'd really hate to spend the time I did on AirTraders, then set up my whole city around those
production additions, just for 2-3 months from now the attributes suddenly chg and I'm SOL.

The differences here are that (a) that set is already balanced - it DOES provide a variety of goods, so it won't break the game, (b) most people got roughly one of them, as opposed to an unlimited supply in the spire, and (c) you're gonna outgrow those specs and ditch the building anyway, unless you've got a lot of RR to upgrade it. For that, you better be in a 10- chest fellowship or willing to spend diamonds to craft RR spells.

Grand prizes are limited. Most people get one, and then most people get rid of them in a couple months. Whatever impact they have is short-term. The library set is like a hydra zombie. It never dies, and you win two more for every one you sell off.

 

[AtaguS]

I'd really hate to spend the time I did on AirTraders, then set up my whole city around those
production additions, just for 2-3 months from now the attributes suddenly chg and I'm SOL.

Consider also that event buildings and culture items we work hard to achieve to lose value as we progress. Yes, we now have thes RR spells so we can limp them along with us. But RR spells are not easy to come by in large numbers so even that requires a real commitment and investment to pull off. I'm just saying that replacing older buildings, even great ones, for newer - more efficient or currently needed output- items is a part of the game.

I'm positive there are players out there who have dedicated space in their cities to save every set building ever assembled over the years but far more have made a different choice as space and supply challenges mounted and do eventually let wonderful buidlings go. Even these players will be ok under this proposed change because the library will still offer goods...anyone finding themselves a wee but short on scrolls after will find a host of willing scrolls boosted players falling over themselves to trade.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

It has been so long since the last time I even looked at what the Moonstone Library gives that I forgot the links give spell fragments and not additional scrolls. My somehow misremembering and thinking the links gave extra scrolls changes what I have said before in this thread to the point I am now not in favor of changing the Library to boost+1. After looking over the set again, the things I would be in favor of changing would require a different suggestion thread, such as changing the link bonus in the Endless Scrolls from more scrolls to either Ink or Velvet when won in chapters 13+. Or replacing the links in the Library that give spell fragments with something else.

 

[Ashrem]

It has been so long since the last time I even looked at what the Moonstone Library gives that I forgot the links give spell fragments and not additional scrolls.

The links are trivial and irrelevant to the idea. The main production of a chapter 15 moonstone library is 8000 scrolls. All three link bonuses are only 450 fragments, so would have represented barely 5% of the output from each building. And this is only changing the Library, while ignoring the endless scrolls, which are already excessive.

If you think a 5% reduction in how many scrolls you thought were being produced changes the suggestions, then you weren't paying attention.

 

[BrinDarby]

Crazy, Ash, Kek, & Atagus,

"Why not either add more pieces that could change the production to the desired one, or just
have more sets rotate within the prizes for the Spire." - was 1 of my quotes...

After doing my homework, the set is 5 pieces, and while 2 pieces produce only scrolls... if there were
other pieces that did silk or crystal, creative ppl would link them all together and no T2 wouold be need'd.
Even if you do the +1, that won't solve the problem either , because the real problem here is not the glut
of scrolls...

Plain and simple, its the glut of the same set offered for too long in a weekly draw event.

There's just way too many of the same anything, in players's hands... simple fix tho,
rotate Spire prize sets.... but then the multiplayer stuff is the same 3 of every 4 rewards.
Don't ya think thats pretty redundant ? So neither my suggestion or yours ( the +1 ) will
solve this problem if players win 1 every week, or even just 2 a month. I'm sure the top
Spire FSs players are getting 2-4 pieces per week. ( after week, after week, after week )

as far as buyer beware, I was take'n a jab @ myself on that 1... lolol

I am far enuff to start looking harder, I do see the boxes with pieces as possible
prizes... I see where you're getting them. Not only do you rotate which pieces in
which sets are offered, there might only be 2 pieces of 1 set this/any week. So much
harder to have so many multiple complete sets unless you've been here 5 years.

I do tho sympathise now with the core problem, I hope you now see the solution
is preventing the glut of any 1 building/set over long periods of time, thru prizes
in a weekly event such as the Spire.
BrinD

 

[samidodamage]

@Enevhar Aldarion
My thinking is that this part of the suggestion addresses the excess scrolls given by Endless Scrolls:

This proposal applies to all moonstone library set pieces that produce tradeable goods

The tradeable goods that are currently produced are: scrolls, magic dust, moonstone, tree gum, and cosmic bismuth. In my mind, the sentient goods also being boost+1 will more evenly distribute those goods as well. I think changing Endless Scrolls to a specific sentient good instead of T2 boost+1 would eventually cause the same oversupply issue with whichever sentient good was chosen.
And just for the record, I am boosted in crystal in the city where I have a huge oversupply of scrolls, so implementing this change is not going to have any effect there at all.
Spell Fragments: I'm at 460+K SF in one city and 500+K SF in the other, so I agree something is needed to provide a better balance. I also prefer we deal with SF's in a specific suggestion. As seen in the original thread trying to tackle that problem, there are many, many variables that need to be considered when developing a solution for that issue. There is an updated version of a suggestion for how to handle the SF's that are won in Spire individual chests here that is a good starting point for a very complicated issue.

So much harder to have so many multiple complete sets unless you've been here 5 years.

The Spire and Spire set buildings were introduced less than a year ago. They already reduced the frequency of the set buildings once, and the impact on the game economy happened anyway in just a few months time.

 

[AtaguS]

I do tho sympathise now with the core problem, I hope you now see the solution
is preventing the glut of any 1 building/set over long periods of time, thru prizes
in a weekly event such as the Spire.

I don't disagree with you at all

 

[Deleted User - 1178646]

Crazy, Ash, Kek, & Atagus,

"Why not either add more pieces that could change the production to the desired one, or just
have more sets rotate within the prizes for the Spire." - was 1 of my quotes...

After doing my homework, the set is 5 pieces, and while 2 pieces produce only scrolls... if there were
other pieces that did silk or crystal, creative ppl would link them all together and no T2 wouold be need'd.
Even if you do the +1, that won't solve the problem either , because the real problem here is not the glut
of scrolls...

Plain and simple, its the glut of the same set offered for too long in a weekly draw event.

There's just way too many of the same anything, in players's hands... simple fix tho,
rotate Spire prize sets.... but then the multiplayer stuff is the same 3 of every 4 rewards.
Don't ya think thats pretty redundant ? So neither my suggestion or yours ( the +1 ) will
solve this problem if players win 1 every week, or even just 2 a month. I'm sure the top
Spire FSs players are getting 2-4 pieces per week. ( after week, after week, after week )

as far as buyer beware, I was take'n a jab @ myself on that 1... lolol

I am far enuff to start looking harder, I do see the boxes with pieces as possible
prizes... I see where you're getting them. Not only do you rotate which pieces in
which sets are offered, there might only be 2 pieces of 1 set this/any week. So much
harder to have so many multiple complete sets unless you've been here 5 years.

I do tho sympathise now with the core problem, I hope you now see the solution
is preventing the glut of any 1 building/set over long periods of time, thru prizes
in a weekly event such as the Spire.
BrinD

there are a few problems with your assumption.

• changing the sets often will result in an outcry of people unable to get the whole set in the allocated timeframe
• It cost a lot of money and coding clutter if you often add new sets in the spire from scratch, just for the sake of adding.
• if you swap the set for "other goods" it will result in fully self sustaining people, this removes those players from the market, creating an even bigger problem for new players as there is no one to trade with left. I personally own a T1 "superset" from 2 years ago that gives me all the planks, steel and marble I need and I never visit the market for T1 since. only a handfull people own such a "superset" this is why that set is not an issue, but this could create such a set at everyones place.
• The spire is a fairly new addition to the game and it already disrupts it, I did call this set a time bomb the second it came out, unfortunatly no one heeded my warning
• you can also build sets in not conventional ways to make them way more effective this is what I use on my small tiny town, it owns 0 T2 factories. and crafts like a madman, and storms the tower like a pro
• 

Each block consists of:

• 2 libraries
• 1 moonstone gate
• 2 mana plants
• 2 gum trees
• 4 endless scrolls.

This means out of each 48 squares 40 are dedicated to making scrolls+catalists, and 8 squares are fillers to make it all work.
And this is only several months of collecting, these buildings are also aquired in the random chests that appear in the spire, this makes there droprate much higher than you anticipated.

ps this account is a chapter 4 account.

 

[Deleted User - 1178646]

It has been so long since the last time I even looked at what the Moonstone Library gives that I forgot the links give spell fragments and not additional scrolls. My somehow misremembering and thinking the links gave extra scrolls changes what I have said before in this thread to the point I am now not in favor of changing the Library to boost+1. After looking over the set again, the things I would be in favor of changing would require a different suggestion thread, such as changing the link bonus in the Endless Scrolls from more scrolls to either Ink or Velvet when won in chapters 13+. Or replacing the links in the Library that give spell fragments with something else.

The spell fragments arent part of the issue, endless scrolls for example gets full production of scrolls with only 1 connection.

This combination of endless scrolls at the last chapter with "something" results in as much production as 2 level 31 T2 factories at 7!!! 3 hour productions a day, for most 5 or 6 is already max.
This means the value of that tiny 35 squares area has the value of at least this.

And this is using premium buildings to save space.
This is how disruptive this set potentially can be, and why that spellfragment thing doesnt matter at all.
The whole above set fits in the space of a single factory in this setup and does not require the chain around it to support it.