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    Your Elvenar Team

Amount of provinces needed not in line with progress through the game

DeletedUser2870

Guest
People have been going on for a while about the orc-requirement at ring 11 and hitting that ring too soon.

I've been looking at it from a different perspective, and that is the amount of provinces that is suggested (and needed as a minimum requirement) to move on to the next chapter.

And then something rather strange became clear:
If ring 11 is the first to require orcs to negotiate, then it makes sense that ring 11 is the one you're supposed to be hitting just before, or just in, the orc-chapter.
All well and good so far. And as it happens I now in my US world have scouted just about every province in ring 11, and am nearing the end of the fairy chapter, so one might say I am a bit too far. Fine.

However, take a look at the number of provinces required for the chests:
Completing ring 10 is already giving you more provinces than you need to open the chest at the start of the woodelf-chapter (the one AFTER the orc-chapter).
To me, this means the indication on the chests is just plain wrong! Or it should only be seen as how it was introduced: a minimum requirement. But in that case, is there really a need for a max? If the indication of the next chapter shoud be seen as max, it doesn't fit correctly. And in that case, why does it so strongly influence the battles?

And NO, I do not mean they should move the line of orc-requirement back to ring 10 or even lower, tyvm. I would suggest they increase the amount of needed provinces for the woodelves by quite a lot.
The orc chapter is extremely slow and the scouting times have increased to days by that time, people should have the chance to continue scouting without getting out of the zone.

Personally, I think that an average of 5 rings/ 3 chapters should be a good indication of the playable zone (Goldilocks Zone), IF they want to limit players that way, which I still think is a strange strategy.
That means that the orc-chapter, as chapter 8, should be safe to play until ring 12, perhaps 13. (And it happens to coincide with ring 11 as the orc-requirement too, though a case could be made to move it to 12).

For the woodelves, everything to about ring 14-15 should be safe.
And by 'safe' I mean facing a max of 1,8 : 1, perhaps 2:1 odds at the outer provinces, taking into account the maxed squadsize that one can reach in that chapter, since that pretty much is the max one can regularly beat (with a lot of effort and losses) using the new system.
And perhaps 2.5 : 1 in the next ring, making it so that enthousiastic players and more battle-oriented players have battles that still MAY be winnable for experienced players.
 

DeletedUser2870

Guest
@TSmack
I know, I know. Just can't help myself. Especially since I don't have a chance in any province-battles and find myself so far ahead of the GZ on my main world I'm not ever going to be inside that zone again and it just sucks
 

DeletedUser3696

Guest
I'm too far ahead and most likely still ahead of where the next chapter will be, but I can still win fights in favourable provinces like steel and crystal - only because paladins are beasts. But there are still some match-ups that I cannot win in my 'easy' provinces. Provinces like elixir I dare not even try since they have been the toughest.
I'm content to sit and wait, since with only 2 builders I still have about 5-6 expansions of empty space in my city (that is due to trying to push thru the orc chapter - some will know what I'm talking about!!).
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
I completely agree, as long as you would still get the same number of expansions of course.
Having to clear an extra 50 or so provinces to get into orcs would be fine by me, I just wouldn't want to get 5 more expansions for doing that.
I've already mapped out my plan for all of Fairies, and I don't even need 7 of the 8 I'll get from that chapter to do it--getting 5 more on top of that would remove all of the challenge from the city design for me.
 

DeletedUser2870

Guest
I'm not asking for any change in the amount of provinces needed for expansions.
What I want is the indication on the chests to match up with the orc requirement. Or actually, to have them match up a bit more with the pace at which one can expand without any undue amount of attention to the game and without using diamonds to shorten the scoutig times.
And yes the 5 rings / 3 chapters would probably increase the GZ for most players. But since that happens to coincide with the problems so many people face in the game that won't exactly hurt either.

So the required number of provinces could probably be upped for almost all chapters. But the ring 11 issue makes it very clear the current demand is out of sync
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
I'm not asking for any change in the amount of provinces needed for expansions.
Just to be clear,
I needed 130 provinces cleared to get into fairies, and that gave me 55 total expansions.
If under your suggestion I needed 160 to get into fairies, would I still have 55, or would I have more?
 

DeletedUser2870

Guest
You would have a few more, since the expansions come at 1 per 9 provinces.
Didn't think that would be a problem.
But then again, if they increased the zone where combat is actually possible to keep up with the higher demand on provinces needed as suggested there is no reason not to up that to 1 per 10 as well to make it a bit harder to get those.

Actually, didn't quite see the additional space as a problem myself. ;)
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
That'd work for me then =)

Imagine the uproar from those on the edge of getting out of orcs being told they need to clear 150 more provinces first though.....
 

DeletedUser2870

Guest
I wonder. Because I also wonder how many players are already near that amount when the finished the orc-chapter. It's a very tedious chapter with productiontimes for the special goods that are ridiculous, as is the low yield and the high need. So one needs a lot of space to get through, or will have to wait for a looooong time to produce everything needed.
If in the meantime one can still scout and fight in the provinces that is at least something, especially if the fights are do-able again/
And hey, about 100 provinces also means about 800 KP...something I'm sure nobody will say no to.
 

Mykan

Oh Wise One
Last time they put the minimum requirement in (or "upped" it from 0) it hurt players just as badly as the current issues are. You had people stuck for months chest locked. They either dumped their KP to peoples wonders or sacrificed their hourly KP approx 2000+ KP lost for those that took 3 months+. Pretty sure those people do not want a solution which hurts the same demographic again only to gain a (comparatively) measly 800 KP as compensation.

If you don't move the minimum for a chapter and only move the maximum you get a much larger variation of space for people in the same era, something they seem to not want, for whatever reason. There is also the matter that Soggy mentioned and Inno representatives have clearly stated is they believe that too much space limits the challenges/puzzles that are core to their understanding of the game. How you change Inno's understanding of that....no clue if it is even possible.

The other scary thought is perhaps the orc requirement will be moved in at some point in the future to align with the combat restriction. Or they will just add additional restrictions before and after orcs so there are multiple negotiating roadblocks.
 

DeletedUser3507

Guest
Just what I did exactly in 2 days I will be producing Orcs.
Completed provinces 223.:D

Further justification of my method, Thanks:cool:
Dead time 2 weeks.
 

DeletedUser2870

Guest
Last time they put the minimum requirement in (or "upped" it from 0) it hurt players just as badly as the current issues are. You had people stuck for months chest locked. They either dumped their KP to peoples wonders or sacrificed their hourly KP approx 2000+ KP lost for those that took 3 months+. Pretty sure those people do not want a solution which hurts the same demographic again only to gain a (comparatively) measly 800 KP as compensation.

Like I said, I wonder. I played only 1-2 hours a day and yet was able to go way beyond the number of provinces required by the chests.
In my fellowships I've had players who were much more active and they hit ring 11 while still in the dwarven chapter, making it an extremely long wait before they could get any further.
Needless to say, many of those just quit.
Now on my US-world I'm nearing the end of the fairy chapter and have almost completed scouting ring 11 again. Just waiting for the squadsize upgrades to be able to fight through. And yet I've been playing much less frequently the last few weeks.
So yes, I'm sure some people will be stuck. But quite some people are stuck now. And as gamer (and as a gameprovider) personally I'd rather be stuck/have players be stuck because I'm/they're not playing very frequently than because of being an active player. The last makes no sense at all, but that is what's happening now.

As for the KP: on my dutch world, all through the orc chapter I was stuck in the research tree. I upped 4 wonders for 3-4 levels each all by myself in just that chapter and was dumping kp's in wonders I wanted runes for. The chapter just sucks. But that has nothing to do with the number of provinces available but with the ridiculous time needed to produce the special goods combined by the even ridiculous low yield and high demand for the goods to unlock the tech.

(Edit: with the retroactively added tech that may become less of a problem since those techs do not require the special stuff to unlock. I guess I'll find out soon enough here again)

My suggestion was about 5 rings/3 chapters for the GZ. Even when I started a new world it was no problem at all to hit ring 5 before finishing chapter 3. Progress was mostly a problem because with the new system the fights were getting so hard it made more sense to just negotiate.

The other scary thought is perhaps the orc requirement will be moved in at some point in the future to align with the combat restriction. Or they will just add additional restrictions before and after orcs so there are multiple negotiating roadblocks.
I'm sure. Several people have suggested something like that will happen. But there's a very good chance of chasing yet more (active) players away if they keep putting up new roadblocks all the time.
 
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DeletedUser3696

Guest
The fun thing about the orc chapter is the fact it is the most challenging by far. Players are forced to make a lot of decisions about space usage and most have decided to sell buildings they will want/need later in the game. It's either that or wait much longer to gather the race resources to proceed on the tech tree.

I've seen some cities in the orc chapter with 1 rally point and like 12-15 farms and I feel for them as they will most likely take about 6 months with such a set-up.

Challenges like that are fun for me and provide different solutions for different styles of play. For a more patient person they could really upgrade their wonders or an approach somewhere in between.
 

DeletedUser2870

Guest
@TSmack

Oh, I agree it is a challenge. I'm not sure about the fun though. But that's partly because I REALLY dislike the look of the buildings. So perhaps I'm not going to upgrade a lot (saves space too).
On my dutch world I sold off some other buildings as well to get through, only to replace them later on again.
When I get to the point I can build the farms and rallypoints I'll probably start by selling off enough culture to maintain a level just around 100-125% in order to free up space.
On the other hand, by that time I should have 2 more squadsize upgrades from the fairies (working on 23 at this point, I skipped 22 for now since it's optional and I want to move towards unlocking the fairy wonders first, really want to build the Traders Guild) and one more from the orcs (24).
With those I SHOULD be able to fight the provinces in ring 11. They're nearly all scouted now, so it's a matter of fighting and negotiating through them. That means I have something like 40-45 provinces to conquer and that should give me 4, perhaps 5 expansions to work with as well as the space I now am using for the fairy-stuff, so I think that will be enough to set up enough of them I won't be stuck there for too long.
Last time I just thoroughly disliked that chapter. Don't think I'll enjoy it this time around.

(edit: but I'll admit I like reorganising my town and challenge myself to come to the optimum use of space and it's true that the orc-chapter is a challenge in that aspect)
 
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DeletedUser3696

Guest
@TSmack

Oh, I agree it is a challenge. I'm not sure about the fun though. But that's partly because I REALLY dislike the look of the buildings. So perhaps I'm not going to upgrade a lot (saves space too).
On my dutch world I sold off some other buildings as well to get through, only to replace them later on again.
When I get to the point I can build the farms and rallypoints I'll probably start by selling off enough culture to maintain a level just around 100-125% in order to free up space.
On the other hand, by that time I should have 2 more squadsize upgrades from the fairies (working on 23 at this point, I skipped 22 for now since it's optional and I want to move towards unlocking the fairy wonders first, really want to build the Traders Guild) and one more from the orcs (24).
With those I SHOULD be able to fight the provinces in ring 11. They're nearly all scouted now, so it's a matter of fighting and negotiating through them. That means I have something like 40-45 provinces to conquer and that should give me 4, perhaps 5 expansions to work with as well as the space I now am using for the fairy-stuff, so I think that will be enough to set up enough of them I won't be stuck there for too long.
Last time I just thoroughly disliked that chapter. Don't think I'll enjoy it this time around.

(edit: but I'll admit I like reorganising my town and challenge myself to come to the optimum use of space and it's true that the orc-chapter is a challenge in that aspect)
Most players who 'sped' thru the orc chapter used 16-18 expansions worth of space for their rally points and farms. Most had to sell off buildings to do this.
I ended up scrapping 2 armories and a lot of culture buildings to the point I had no free culture and went 2-3 weeks without using my builders at all. The benefit I guess is that I have space still for when I need to build the woodelf resource buildings (at least I hope I do!!).
 

Thistleknot

Well-Known Member
I must have either planned exceptionally well or just got lucky, because the orc chapter, while challenging, was not something that I got completely bogged down in. I did not need to sell off anything. I just used the space for my Fairy production plus a few more expansions that I got along the way. I think I used 15 expansions in a 5x3 pattern. I had 20 level-4 mushroom farms and 3 level-3 rally points. I moved through the research at a steady pace. I am sure there were some slow points at the beginning, especially while I upgraded the portal and the farms. I know this chapter was slower than the Fairy chapter, but I didn't have so many KP from stalling that I could upgrade multiple wonders.

After moving from the Dwarves to the Fairies and realizing that guest races are the way of the future, I have just kept a section of my city open for the new race.
 

DeletedUser2870

Guest
First time, I had to find out everything because I had been waiting at the end of the fairy-chapter for a while already.
Finally decided I just needed at least 3 rallypoints and something like 40-50 shroomfarms. At first I'd tried with about half but I quickly found out that would take forever.
So after doubling the farms to over 40 and putting in a 3d and later 4th rallypoint it was more or less ok. But the amount of space that takes is not very likely to be possible without some premium expansions, unless one cuts back on the factories.

So I still feel it's not a fun chapter.

Now I know exactly how to set it up and with the added tech that doesn't require the special stuff I think I'll manage without having to dump a lot of KP's in any wonders
 
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DeletedUser3696

Guest
First time, I had to find out everything because I had been waiting at the end of the fairy-chapter for a while already.
Finally decided I just needed at least 3 rallypoints and something like 40-50 shroomfarms. At first I'd tried with about half but I quickly found out that would take forever.
So after doubling the farms to over 40 and putting in a 3d and later 4th rallypoint it was more or less ok. But the amount of space that takes is not very likely to be possible without some premium expansions, unless one cuts back on the factories.

So I still feel it's not a fun chapter.

Now I know exactly how to set it up and with the added tech that doesn't require the special stuff I think I'll manage without having to dump a lot of KP's in any wonders
I have zero premium expansions and didn't have much problem accomodating 16-18 total expansions to orcs. Mind you I'm at 269 conquered provinces - not sure how many extra that gives me but I have a total of 81 5x5 spaces not including the one I've gotten in woodelves chapter.

It's definitely possible without spending $$
 
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