mucksterme
Oh Wise One
perhaps you should focus on gaining a sense of humor
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Your Elvenar Team
perhaps you should focus on gaining a sense of humor
Risen Malchiah
Well-Known Member
@Brooster While this back and forth has been amusing, it is really distracting from the discussion at hand. That vast majority of us agree about this being a negative change. The personal attacks back and forth don't add anything of substance to the conversation.
@Mykan I do favor the "less work" aspect of this change, but not the size of the reduction. If the rewards in the chests were increased, or even tied to the MH level rather than a simple x10, it would better reflect what players have come to expect from this wonder. Or if the wonder increased the 3 chest cap, that could be interesting. I'm certain nobody actually enjoyed visiting 200 people per day, but for those who were willing to work for it, I don't feel they should be penalized by being reduced to the average player.
@Mykan I do favor the "less work" aspect of this change, but not the size of the reduction. If the rewards in the chests were increased, or even tied to the MH level rather than a simple x10, it would better reflect what players have come to expect from this wonder. Or if the wonder increased the 3 chest cap, that could be interesting. I'm certain nobody actually enjoyed visiting 200 people per day, but for those who were willing to work for it, I don't feel they should be penalized by being reduced to the average player.
DeletedUser7367
Guest
Apparently the moniker of 'Well-known Member' gives some the right to pontificate. Personal attacks? really? My verbiage has been directed toward Inno, if indeed someone feels 'attacked'....I simply defer to being defensive when other players care to 'call me out'.
qaccy
Well-Known Member
I've already commented in one of the other threads, so I'll paraphrase a bit here: People are blowing this change out of proportion, some incredibly so. Take a few steps back and look at how ultimately insignificant the change is in the grand scheme of things.
For example, the AW is not now 'useless' because of the change, and nobody got 'robbed' like at least one person keeps saying. Anyone who had it was able to use the previous goods bonus for a good while, and it even now still provides a goods bonus as well as the NH duration bonus it's always had. Levelling it up still increases both of these, as with all other AWs. I mean, IMO it was a lot closer to 'useless' in its original form, when the amount of goods provided per visit were in the single digits and only scaled with the AW's level, having no interaction with provinces completed to make the bonus relevant in the late-game.
I'm pretty troubled by the forum community, to be honest, and it's why I generally avoid posting here. There's way too much emphasis on anything that's 'bad' and most improvements tend to get glossed over or outright ignored. In one of the major updates to AWs that generally saw significant increases across the board to many AW bonuses, player attention still ended up settling on the things that got worse, like the Golden Abyss, even as almost all other AWs became much better and more worth building. And a lot of times, these things that get 'rebalanced' in a negative way are reacted to as if the game's now suddenly completely broken because of it, Inno's a bunch of greedy corporate monsters, or whatever other crazy thing people try to claim. I get pretty heated in my posts myself at times, but I always try to look at things objectively and when people are just providing complaints rather than feedback, that's what gets me riled up. Complaints really aren't a very good jumping-off point when it comes to working on something because people don't usually include a solution on how to make something better while keeping in mind that rolling something back is usually off the table.
For example, the AW is not now 'useless' because of the change, and nobody got 'robbed' like at least one person keeps saying. Anyone who had it was able to use the previous goods bonus for a good while, and it even now still provides a goods bonus as well as the NH duration bonus it's always had. Levelling it up still increases both of these, as with all other AWs. I mean, IMO it was a lot closer to 'useless' in its original form, when the amount of goods provided per visit were in the single digits and only scaled with the AW's level, having no interaction with provinces completed to make the bonus relevant in the late-game.
I'm pretty troubled by the forum community, to be honest, and it's why I generally avoid posting here. There's way too much emphasis on anything that's 'bad' and most improvements tend to get glossed over or outright ignored. In one of the major updates to AWs that generally saw significant increases across the board to many AW bonuses, player attention still ended up settling on the things that got worse, like the Golden Abyss, even as almost all other AWs became much better and more worth building. And a lot of times, these things that get 'rebalanced' in a negative way are reacted to as if the game's now suddenly completely broken because of it, Inno's a bunch of greedy corporate monsters, or whatever other crazy thing people try to claim. I get pretty heated in my posts myself at times, but I always try to look at things objectively and when people are just providing complaints rather than feedback, that's what gets me riled up. Complaints really aren't a very good jumping-off point when it comes to working on something because people don't usually include a solution on how to make something better while keeping in mind that rolling something back is usually off the table.
DeletedUser1996
Guest
If thats your take on it -good for you. I see it different and not only see it that way, but know for a fact for me and others as well... That this change is NOT helpful and is Thoughtless to many of us players.
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DeletedUser7367
Guest
Kudos Ruffe... the above comments of 'fine tuning' and balancing hit me as simple Inno-Verbosity..... That stale sales pitch of FAR less is better for you? WOW..... amazed that someone would 'gloss over' this calamity of abused TRUST between player-payers and the digital casino [INNO] that TAKES our money for pre-determined value. Sometimes logic and truth are overwhelming, Raffe....especially for those with ve$ted interest in the game.
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Mykan
Oh Wise One
I understand the sentiment but I would not be surprised if the average players actually got boosted by this change and they have picked a middle ground, granted somewhat towards the low end.
There is no doubt that many are upset by the change, my comment was to point out that not everyone is always impacted in the same way as your comment indicated. The ever elusive chase of "balance" causes games to change and some are good and others not so. @qaccy makes a good point in reminding us that this wonder gave a lot less goods until the "recent" buff.
Bluebell Woods
Member
I've little to add to this thread except to say that the needless changes to the CL have taken away the object of visiting my neighbours, and from now on I'll only be visiting those who visit me, and of course my fellowship friends. There is no benefit except coins and I have plenty of those. Oh, and please stop calling them upgrades when they are downgrades.
DeletedUser1996
Guest
And thats true! - and as I said " others as well" not everyone ! My comment did not indicate "Everyone "
Risen Malchiah
Well-Known Member
@Mykan We do sometimes forget that the active bunch on this forum are the active, and vocal, minority in a game where most players are far more casual.
And I agree @qaccy made some good points. We do tend to focus on negative changes, but that's somewhat understandable. Nobody likes the feeling that something is being taken away, more so than never having had it at all. There are valid and sensible ways to re-rebalance this wonder that would mitigate some of those feelings while still accomplishing what the devs had intended. Some ideas have been mentioned here and no doubt more have been mentioned on the beta forum.
And I agree @qaccy made some good points. We do tend to focus on negative changes, but that's somewhat understandable. Nobody likes the feeling that something is being taken away, more so than never having had it at all. There are valid and sensible ways to re-rebalance this wonder that would mitigate some of those feelings while still accomplishing what the devs had intended. Some ideas have been mentioned here and no doubt more have been mentioned on the beta forum.
mucksterme
Oh Wise One
Ashrem
Oh Wise One
Aimed at Inno, except these (from among the ones the moderators or yourself haven't deleted in the last few hours)
DeletedUser4366
Guest
Oh @Mykan - this is the first time that I'll ever have to not only disagree with you. I have a lv11 BS (Bell Spire). I now get 9999 goods for my three chests per day. That is a far cry from what I would have received daily. Here is my reality:
New Total: 9999
Old Total: -8760 >24 members of the my FS 365 goods per person
-3650 >visit just 10 peeps outside my FS
===================================
12400
Differential: 2401
I chose "10" as it's a nice round number.
Less goods will negatively impact my ability to trade with the world. In turn, it will mean less trades with my FS. It also directly impacts my ability to participate in higher levels of the tournaments or fellowship adventures which negatively impacts my FS. All of which contributes to a negative attitude about this change.
PS Although you are the great Mykan (your guides are awesome / everyone should read them)- and I know that you already know this but for some puzzling reason you implied that you did not (by mentioning the speed of which it takes to make a visit) - here is the fastest way to perform neighbourly help for those who don't know:
Time to complete a neighbourly visit: 7-15 seconds (or 6 mins max for your entire FS)
Step1: One hand on the keyboard, the other on the mouse.
Step 2: From whichever screen you like, click on the letter "F" on your keyboard
-------------the Fellowship page will open
Step 3: Choose your victim and click on them
-------------their towne will open
Step 4: While their towne is opening if that takes awhile, click on the letter "E" on your keyboard
-------------the "helping hand/neighbourly help" icon will appear immediately over their Main Hall/Culture/Builder (even if the graphic hasn't quite loaded)
Step 5: Choose the building and click on it to receive the help bonus
Rinse and repeat (use "W" to open the world view map for world visits)
DeletedUser188
Guest
@Brooster and @Ashrem
Would you please take your petty little squabble over who has the biggest opinion and start PM each other your thoughts
Don't get me wrong its very entertaining but your both starting to sound like a broken record
I blame the MODS on this forum for letting this dribble continue
NO other inno forum that I am a part of either in Elvenar or FoE would let this go on without at least 1 public warning
@Aider are you alone or do the forum mods just don't care about your own forum rules
Would you please take your petty little squabble over who has the biggest opinion and start PM each other your thoughts
Don't get me wrong its very entertaining but your both starting to sound like a broken record
I blame the MODS on this forum for letting this dribble continue
NO other inno forum that I am a part of either in Elvenar or FoE would let this go on without at least 1 public warning
@Aider are you alone or do the forum mods just don't care about your own forum rules
Ashrem
Oh Wise One
If it helps your sense of propriety, a number of posts have been removed. none of them were mine.
Mykan
Oh Wise One
I do not dispute the change in goods, obviously it is a kick in the guts. I am trying to point out there are some very positive aspects to the change. The balance aspect for inno to analyse data is also positive but it doesn't mean we can predict what the result of that analysis will be, simply they have a better instrument for fairer play across the player group.
As with other long term players I have weathered many an update, this one for me does not rate that high in comparison to some of the others. Note I am not saying there aren't issues, I am saying I consider some past updates to be of greater controversy/impact. I also had the benefit/misfortune of building and levelling my lighthouse/bell spire when it only gave single digit boosts. While I like huge quantity of goods, this version of it is still superior to the one I originally built and levelled. I now have to adapt my play again, I am certain it will not be the last time and it certainly isn't the first time.
DeletedUser6459
Guest
I have been a player for years and have religiously visited all the players in my region, before I was even a member of a fellowship or had the Crystal Lighthouse and later when the CL gave very little in the way of goods (before the last change). I was attracted to this game as it was different from others, by rewarding people for helping others, rather than the usual, competing against others to gain something. But helping each other does have to work both ways, even if it is occasional. Having the extra goods when the change came in encouraged me to continue visiting despite only being visited by up to 10 of my neighbors.Now I have to weigh up the benefits before spending an additional 2 hours or so to collect coins from all of my neighbors.
My main point is that Elvenar, continue to say that this change promotes the importance of visiting players around you and this is clearly not the case, it's the exact opposite as the chests can be found within 6 visits. If Elvenar feel the need to reduce the amount of goods awarded, then it is my opinion that they should reduce the amount awarded for each visit (maybe 50% of the previous amount) rather than bundle the full amount into 3 chests, which will still encourage neighborly help. Also for people who want to gain more goods etc, they are rewarded for the additional time/effort.
DeletedUser7276
Guest
This is also my first time posting here. I agree completely. I also noticed that they took away a lot of culture from several of the other AW's. I didn't get very far in the tournament due to these changes either. Put it back the way it was INNO!!!
edeba
Well-Known Member
DeletedUser1996
Guest
That seems pretty close --yes.