Diversity of Charachters! :D

[Selamta]

Hello!

I am fairly new to this game, but as a lover of Fantasy, and everything involving Elves and Dragons, I have really enjoyed Elvenar! I also greatly appreciate the Forum and the community that comes along with it.

One thing that I noticed as soon as I was asked to choose a profile picture in the game was that... all the options were caucasian/caucasian based (I think there was one black male option). That automatically hurt-- a lot. I chose a player that most closely resembled a person of color...

Then, as I advanced, 2 more options for profile pictures came up... and I was both simultaneously hopeful that there was be a Black/POC option, and horrified that a player would have to advance to "earn" such a profile picture.

I think there is a simple fix for this! There are great artists out there that I'm sure would be happy to come up with more options! I think this would also get more POC to Elvenar (there is also no diveristy in the advertising).

Are there other POC on this Forum? How do y'all feel? Have other people raised this question? How soon can we fix this?

Sincerely,

Selamta

 

[Gath Of Baal]

Dark Elves are considered in fantasy to be the "Evil Elves" (Oh how I wish I could make a Dark Elf city) and you are supposed to be the "Good Elves" in this game. Among the "Good Elves" there is a semi diverse starter avatar pick set to choose from with colors ranging from Blue, White and Tan.

The Human starter avatar set is less diverse with only 1 human male being black (but damn he looks cool with his glowing eyes). Yes there could be more diversity in the starting avatars and to inlock more diverse avatars takes either game progression or building certain Ancient Wonders.

In all the years of being on this forum i have never seen this topic mentioned before. The closest thing to it was 1 person complaining about the use of slaves in one of the later chapters. https://us.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/so-long.18276/post-127335

I respect you view point and do think more diversity is needed, but where does it stop at? Do we need more diversity with Dwarves. Orcs, Goblins, Dragons, Elementals, Etc. I just think this is a Fantasy based game designed around a few peoples (game developers) opinions, experiences and view points of what they think Fantasy races should look and act like.

I have always wanted a game tool to design your own avatar, many other browser based games have this simple feature and I have no clue why we do not have one in Elvenar. I actually think its never been proposed as a new game feature yet by anyone, so that could be something you could propose with a chance of it getting forwarded to the game developers for consideration.

Edit: Added link

 

[Kekune]

There was a very old thread on this topic, here. It does not appear to have resulted in any changes.

In addition to the avatars identified in that thread, there are a few newer ones, such as those from the Amuni chapter, that are non-white. I agree some better representation in the starting characters (at least the humans) would be good.

 

[DarkKitty]

QUOTE="Gath Of Baal, post: 196427, member: 2793"]
I respect you view point and do think more diversity is needed
[/QUOTE]

Agreed.

Dark Elves are considered in fantasy to be the "Evil Elves" (Oh how I wish I could make a Dark Elf city) and you are supposed to be the "Good Elves" in this game

I think challenging this idea of darker skin = "bad" would be a good place to start with adding more profile pics of elves and humans who are Black or of color. There has been fiction aimed at this and it would be really cool to give players more options to be represented early on and through out the chapters.

There was a very old thread on this topi

It might be worth revisiting.

I think there is a simple fix for this! There are great artists out there that I'm sure would be happy to come up with more options!

Have you considered bringing this up in the Ideas and Suggestions section? Here is the link to guidance on how to format the post for the best results. Good luck!

 

[Kekune]

I think challenging this idea of darker skin = "bad" would be a good place to start with adding more profile pics of elves and humans who are Black or of color.

Agreed.

 

[Iyapo1]

@Selamta If you do decide to go through the suggestion process, I would absolutely vote for this! Also you might want to check out the MAC elvenar Instagram contest and post a suggestion there, now might be a perfect time.

 

[Gath Of Baal]

There was a very old thread on this topic, here. It does not appear to have resulted in any changes.

Ah I totally missed this when i did a forum search. Weird thing is i responded to that thread also with the same solution I brought up in this thread

 

[Selamta]

First, thank you for your thoughts!

@Gath Of Baal --
Let's be real, this idea of Dark Elves being evil... more than likely, historically, people from Europe probably equated evil with black people. But we know better now, we've evolved as a society!
We can take the ideas and modernize them. For example, there can be a distinction bt/w evil black unnatural creatures with either caucasian or non-caucasian features and human-like elves with dark skin. I think my profile picture on this forum can be a good example. I certainly don't look at that picture and think that Elf is evil. On the other hand, there could be white-skinned elf with menacing features that point to the idea of them being evil.

In addition, Fantasy is about creativity! Throughout time, people have added their own take on age old ideas. We shouldn't be saying "where does it stop," but what can we add/change to make it our own? Where did the idea that Elves should be blue come from? Idk but it was a cool idea. It's people adding their own take.

Overall, games are more fun when there are more people, and Fantasy games-I think- more than any other type of game have built-in flexibility and freedom to let diversity flourish.

I appreciate the few people whose ideas started Elvenar, and I also appreciate their openness to new ideas.

 

[Selamta]

I have always wanted a game tool to design your own avatar, many other browser based games have this simple feature and I have no clue why we do not have one in Elvenar. I actually think its never been proposed as a new game feature yet by anyone, so that could be something you could propose with a chance of it getting forwarded to the game developers for consideration.

This is a great suggestion! Thanks

 

[Selamta]

@Selamta If you do decide to go through the suggestion process, I would absolutely vote for this! Also you might want to check out the MAC elvenar Instagram contest and post a suggestion there, now might be a perfect time.

@lyapo1 Thanks for this suggestion
I unfortunately am not familiar with how the forums work... where does voting happen? What is this IG contest?

 

[Lelanya]

Dark Elves are considered in fantasy to be the "Evil Elves" (Oh how I wish I could make a Dark Elf city) and you are supposed to be the "Good Elves" in this game. Among the "Good Elves" there is a semi diverse starter avatar pick set to choose from with colors ranging from Blue, White and Tan.

The Human starter avatar set is less diverse with only 1 human male being black (but damn he looks cool with his glowing eyes). Yes there could be more diversity in the starting avatars and to inlock more diverse avatars takes either game progression or building certain Ancient Wonders.

In all the years of being on this forum i have never seen this topic mentioned before. The closest thing to it was 1 person complaining about the use of slaves in one of the later chapters. https://us.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/so-long.18276/post-127335

I respect you view point and do think more diversity is needed, but where does it stop at? Do we need more diversity with Dwarves. Orcs, Goblins, Dragons, Elementals, Etc. I just think this is a Fantasy based game designed around a few peoples (game developers) opinions, experiences and view points of what they think Fantasy races should look and act like.

I have always wanted a game tool to design your own avatar, many other browser based games have this simple feature and I have no clue why we do not have one in Elvenar. I actually think its never been proposed as a new game feature yet by anyone, so that could be something you could propose with a chance of it getting forwarded to the game developers for consideration.

Edit: Added link

Yes we asked for this on the EN server years ago, back when Marindor was CM. He said it could not be done because of variables that could compromise players' anonymity, and also Inno wanted to maintain a standard regarding artwork.

Well the issue of standards was severely compromised with the Instagram uploads that contain product placement which is against Elvenar 's rules.

So our OP has a point, there ought to be a dark skinned lady avatar somewhere. My mentor might even come back to the game in that case

 

[Lelanya]

@lyapo1 Thanks for this suggestion
I unfortunately am not familiar with how the forums work... where does voting happen? What is this IG contest?

Look for the contest in the news feature, under the horn. This contest supposedly themes "diversity and inclusivity. Let me find you the other Forum's link.

https://en.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/how-do-i-get-this-weird-portrait.13312

 

[Iyapo1]

Lelanya is correct, in game if you click on the horn symbol you will see the makeup contest. Basically it is an avatar contest paid for by a third party.

 

[Selamta]

@Lelanya Thanks for your replies!
Can you explain what they mean by "variables that could compromise players' anonymity" ?
Also what is a CM and OP?
lol newbie

 

[WolfSinger]

@Selamta I love your profile pic - that is a beautiful and fierce looking elf.

Elvenar is based in Germany and the EU has some strong laws regarding internet privacy and INNO tends to err on the side of not risking anything that could possibly expose private information of a player. I believe based on those laws and the comment about anonymity that there was concern about images being uploaded as avatars pics that could be used in some way to possible ID who a player was.

However, there are other ways to allow some customization that wouldn't make that a risk - IMHO. Mainly, they could have the same avatars - but allow for diversity in skin tone - that way they still have control of the artwork standards, but give us a few more options in how our in-game avatar appears.

CM = Community Manager - one of the folks who moderate and manager the forums.

OP = Original Poster - the person who posted the question - in this particular case that would be you.

Welcome to the game and to the forums.

 

[Iyapo1]

@Selamta

This is a primarily player driven forum with volunteer moderators. For years, there was no path to the devs from this forum. Beta forum was the only forum with a path. Here, we were all just tossing around stuff with each other that no one with the power to implement ever even looked at. This has only been a possibility since March 2020. Our dedicated volunteer moderators worked really hard to get Inno staff to agree to even look at a suggestion from here. The requirements listed in the link: Ideas and Suggestions Forum Guide are the requirements the devs set up. Once an idea has been fully fleshed out to comply with all their restrictions and reached a vote level where it can be forwarded, the only thing they will look at is the original post. They won't look at any of the discussion. They also will not respond to us with any thoughts they may have on these ideas; it is strictly a one-way path of communication. On the rare occasion the mods hear anything back, they let us know, but so far that has been "not what you wanted to hear, but..." It's far from an ideal situation for us, but most of us are just thankful there's any path to get ideas seen at all.

This is by far the best explanation I have ever read about how to get a suggestion through the forum. I take no credit.

 

[Selamta]

@WolfSinger Thanks! I love my prof pic. And thank you for the explanation.

With help from you all, I created this sugestion post:

https://us.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/poc-inspired-avatars-options.25691/

Please give me feedback on it!

 

[Gath Of Baal]

Let's be real, this idea of Dark Elves being evil... more than likely, historically, people from Europe probably equated evil with black people. But we know better now, we've evolved as a society!

People in Europe for the longest time equated Black with good luck and fortune the best examples can be found within the myth of Black Cats

1) Black Cats are believed to be a foolproof source of success in the theater community. On opening night of a play, if a black cat wanders into your theater, you can be sure your play will run long and prosperously.

2) Black Cats During the times of sailors and oceanic exploration, black cats were thought to be assurance for a safe return. The fact that they also were believed to bring wealth was a bonus! In fact, they were thought to be so lucky that prices to purchase black cats were so high, unfortunately most seafarers couldn’t afford them.

3) Black Cats in England, it is believed that giving a bride a black cat on her wedding day will bring good luck to the marriage. Newlyweds that share their home with a black cat are thought to be blessed with a long, happy life.

4) Black Cats in Norse mythology bring us Freya, the goddess of love, fertility and beauty. She rides a chariot pulled by 2 black cats. Farmers wanting to win her favor would leave bowls of milk for her cats in their fields as offerings. The goddess would then bless their fields with a successful harvest.

5) Many countries in Europe believe that black cats actually ward off evil spirits, not the falsely advertised opposite effect.

6) Black Cats in France when found at a fork in the road, if followed will lead you to wealth

7) In Asia, Japanese superstitions say that single women who are looking for love, can benefit by adopting a black cat. This will in turn attract many good suitors to her.

8) also in Asia if a Black Cat crosses your path it is considered good luck to Greet the cat by saying Hello

The color Black did not take on a negative meaning untill the middle ages when it was associated with The Black Death and Witchcraft and only in those instances. I feel that we Americans have given it all its other negative stereotypes like Bad guys wear black etc.

We can take the ideas and modernize them. For example, there can be a distinction bt/w evil black unnatural creatures with either caucasian or non-caucasian features and human-like elves with dark skin. I think my profile picture on this forum can be a good example. I certainly don't look at that picture and think that Elf is evil. On the other hand, there could be white-skinned elf with menacing features that point to the idea of them being evil.

I honestly thought it was a Drow (Dark Elf) I like Dark Elves.. Great picture

In addition, Fantasy is about creativity! Throughout time, people have added their own take on age old ideas. We shouldn't be saying "where does it stop," but what can we add/change to make it our own? Where did the idea that Elves should be blue come from? Idk but it was a cool idea. It's people adding their own take.

It has to stop somewhere, at what point does it start getting "silly" "I am disabled and want a insert disability here avatar because i feel left out" or " I do not identify with Male or Female and i feel left out , I want a Insert Gender Here Avatar" there is so much more that can be added to the list of people and types wanting to be represented. All types of people would be justified in their wanting to be represented but at some point you have to step back and remember this is a Fantasy game where you can spend some time away from your real life.

Again this problem can be solved with a in game create your own avatar tool so no one type is left out and this way specific avatars do not need to be created to meet everyone's expectations of wanting to be represented.


Again i agree that more diversity is needed, i just do not think new avatars need to be made to suit everyone, when what is needed is a way to customize existing avatars

 

[DarkKitty]

It has to stop somewhere, at what point does it start getting "silly" "I am disabled and want a insert disability here avatar because i feel left out" or " I do not identify with Male or Female and i feel left out , I want a Insert Gender Here Avatar" there is so much more that can be added to the list of people and types wanting to be represented.

I actually wouldn't mind either of those as options but I think you're on to something here:

this problem can be solved with a in game create your own avatar tool so no one type is left out

If this happened, I would love for the devs to be mindful at the inception to aim for inclusivity. Thinking ahead, to the very suggestions you mentioned, is at the heart of it. How useful is the tool if it doesn't include more than two genders, etc? It could be as simple as unlimited mixing and matching of hair and clothing options. It would still require a lot of feedback and refinement but I LOVE customization and would be very down with a tool to do that with avatars.

 

[Lelanya]

Thanks @WolfSinger for answering.
Welcome Selamta, what a breath of fresh air you are