Dreaming about an expiring negotiation boost building

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Military also has diminishing returns even though they are done differently.
1 DA gives 50% more
Now your HP is 150
Adding a second DA gives 50 more for 200
That is only a 33% increase over 150
Adding a third DA gives 50 more for 250
That is only a 25% increase over 200
etc.

But since the bonuses are added together first before taking the percent of the original, two DAs gives you 100% more of the base 100, which makes it 200 total. Inno never multiplies one at a time, they always add the bonuses together first to get the correct amount. They do not do math the same way you do. They use parentheses in their formulas, where you are not in your examples. I know Inno always saying the base amount is 100% has always confused other posters and players before too, so people see that 150% and think the wrong amount for that.

 

[Alram]

Is it you all's intention to math my idea into oblivion?

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Is it you all's intention to math my idea into oblivion?

Not me. I just talk the math on the side. lol

 

[samidodamage]

Is it you all's intention to math my idea into oblivion?

Lol!
It does seem to do that on the forums, doesn't it? I do think the math is important to flesh the idea out in a way it can be presented to the devs so they will take it seriously, though. The problem is so many eyes just glaze over when the math debates start. My summary of all that math (that I don't always follow well, either!) in my own head is: There may need to be some controls put in place to prevent being able to get negotiation costs to zero if in fact there is no way to get combat costs to zero.
I'd really appreciate it if the math brains would let us know when they've worked out if it is possible to get combat costs to zero or not...
^^That's what I think the value of the math debate boils down to; I could be wrong...
I agree with @Enevhar Aldarion, a new AW would not be of much help to most players since it would come too late in the game. My thinking (with absolutely no concrete data to back this up!) is that the majority of players use a mix of fighting and negotiating with very few being all negotiate or all combat. The introduction of the expiring combat bldgs made auto-fighting more viable for those players who are only interested in learning enough basics of the combat system to be able to use it to off-set negotiating costs. I think that Inno may see that as the method to reduce negotiating costs . I don't agree. There are many ways I can reduce my combat costs without resorting to negotiating; the same is not true in reverse.
With the addition of limited/decaying resources to the negotiating costs, I think they've skewed the benefits away from negotiating to fighting even more. I'd support an expiring bldg for reducing negotiating costs with controls built in if they are needed.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

I'd really appreciate it if the math brains would let us know when they've worked out if it is possible to get combat costs to zero or not...

That would never happen in the Spire because of the multiple waves and the more random mix of enemy troops, and would never happen on the world map because the enemy can still have up to 8 squads there. In the tournament, maybe, but your squads would have to be so strong that they kill any enemy squad before they have a chance to attack, and your 5 squads would all have to be able to go before any of the enemy's did. But then, you would also be required to play on the browser and only use manual fighting and I don't do that. lol

 

[Kawhi is a Raptor]

My thinking (with absolutely no concrete data to back this up!) is that the majority of players use a mix of fighting and negotiating with very few being all negotiate or all combat. The introduction of the expiring combat bldgs made auto-fighting more viable for those players who are only interested in learning enough basics of the combat system to be able to use it to off-set negotiating costs.

my mental flowchart basically goes:


              no --> autofight
do i have to manual fight? <
              yes --> negotiate


i am also super lazy

 

[Alram]

Not me. I just talk the math on the side. lol

I see your Dylan and I raise you Stones.

 

[samidodamage]

That would never happen in the

I guess what I was trying to say was:
Is it mathematically possible to get combat costs to zero with expiring military boost bldgs? Because that's what I think they're debating regarding expiring military boost bldgs. If it's mathematically possible to put down enough negotiating boost bldgs to reach a point where the costs for climbing the Spire or catering the tourney are zero of every resource, that won't fly regardless of what we come up with. Combat has enough variables that there's no way you could do the entire Spire or tourney without losing troops.
As far as *never* happening at all? Probably doesn't if you auto-fight. I manually fight in the Spire and I have managed zero loss 3 wave fights for all 3 waves. Everything has to fall precisely into place including enemy mix (including there being no Mist Walkers on any of the waves) and terrain, so it happens very rarely. I have managed zero losses for an entire map province, but I also have all blue, very easy fights there and it's still very rare. When it does happen, pretty sure my family thinks I've finally lost it completely...

 

[Alram]

Are there any craftable expiring buildings that benefit negotiators?

 

[Alram]

Are there really zero 'negotiaton only' buildings available in the MA and the Spire?

 

[samidodamage]

Are there any craftable expiring buildings that benefit negotiators?

Expiring bldgs, no. Festival Merchant (supplies/goods/mana/seeds) & Mana Sawmill (supplies/goods/mana) don't expire and give negotiable resources (lowest chapters supplies; higher chapters mana or seeds) depending on chapter when it is crafted. The supplies are only for Ch1-4, so higher chapters they would not help with combat at all and could be considered 'negotiation only'. Of the Library set bldgs, only the Moonstone Gate gives supplies and those are Ch1-8, the rest give negotiable resources (and CC's & spell fragments that could be used to craft the bldgs giving negotiable resources, but can also be used for military bldgs).

Are there really zero 'negotiaton only' buildings available in the MA and the Spire?

As far as Spire, I can't think of any now that the Library set is no longer there.

 

[Alram]

Do fighters also benefit from festival merchants and mana sawmills or is that just a negotiation thing?

 

[samidodamage]

Do fighters also benefit from festival merchants and mana sawmills

Fighters only benefit from supplies (to make more troops), so after Ch4, no benefit to fighters.

 

[ajqtrz]

I like the idea of a 5 day building to reduce negotiating/catering costs. Perhaps you could, as they do with the fighting buildings, target the type of things they effect. Like 25% coin reduction, or 25% supplies and 25% T1 goods. You don't have to make them effect everything just as three of the military ones don't effect every military type. Or, perhaps, just the three basic goods: T1, T2 and T3? That way their effect would be on par with the military by not overwhelming.

Just a thought.

AJ

 

[Alram]

Fighters only benefit from supplies (to make more troops), so after Ch4, no benefit to fighters.

Oh! Thank you! I thought everyone needed mana and seeds

 

[Iyapo1]

You don't have to make them effect everything just as three of the military ones don't effect every military type.

Both the DA and the UUU effect every unit type. It can be argued that the bonus is wasted on certain troop types, but they all get the bonus.

 

[Iyapo1]

Do fighters also benefit from festival merchants and mana sawmills or is that just a negotiation thing?

They need goods for the tech tree too. So yes everyone benifits from things like the festival merchants and mana sawmills unless they are taking an advancement break. If they are paused all goods become positively useless. There is no catering equivalent to the DA, UUU, MMM, and ELR buildings.


Edit: was not including the orcs nests because I am pretty sure everybody always needs those.

 

[Socrates28]

Well instead of an AW, how about a event evolving building which would have the reduction of negotiating costs, or perhaps a 4th negotiation try, when fed Pet Food? The first way would save goods and the second diamonds. Or perhaps both with a percentage reduction in costs as it is leveled up and the fourth try when fed PF good for a 5 days at a time, i.e. one Spire/Tournament cycle like the fighting buildings.
That could be instituted at any time and be available for every chapter of the game.
Yes I have been thinking about this for a while.

 

[Deleted User - 1178646]

But your proposal is that it doesn't stack from it's base value

That would never happen in the Spire because of the multiple waves and the more random mix of enemy troops, and would never happen on the world map because the enemy can still have up to 8 squads there. In the tournament, maybe, but your squads would have to be so strong that they kill any enemy squad before they have a chance to attack, and your 5 squads would all have to be able to go before any of the enemy's did. But then, you would also be required to play on the browser and only use manual fighting and I don't do that. lol

Thanks to mistwalker and map layouts it's impossible to get combat costs to zero you might get it low with 15 DA's and 15 LR boosters but you cannot get it to zero.

There are to many situations where you can't strike first on all 5 enemies.

Oh! Thank you! I thought everyone needed mana and seeds

We do need mana and seeds but not for combat.

Well instead of an AW, how about a event evolving building which would have the reduction of negotiating costs, or perhaps a 4th negotiation try, when fed Pet Food? The first way would save goods and the second diamonds. Or perhaps both with a percentage reduction in costs as it is leveled up and the fourth try when fed PF good for a 5 days at a time, i.e. one Spire/Tournament cycle like the fighting buildings.
That could be instituted at any time and be available for every chapter of the game.
Yes I have been thinking about this for a while.

The problem with pets is you can get multiples.
Lets say it gives a 20% reduction. then someone might get 1 and buy 4 more to get zero negotiation costs and do 90+ provincies every week.
It might set you back 200 dollar or so, but from that point on you rule supreme.

You no longer need combat buildings and timeboosters to create troops, in fact timebooster would be used in a battle who controls the most unlocked provinces.
aka back to the former tournament form where fighters had this battle of who had the most provinces but then even more powerfull.

 

[ajqtrz]

Both the DA and the UUU effect every unit type. It can be argued that the bonus is wasted on certain troop types, but they all get the bonus.

The DA is a building you win. Perhaps then, a GBB (Good Boost Building) you can win in the Spire?

And because the UUU affects al the troop types (and thus improves their effectiveness in fighting since they last longer and thus can take out more enemy troops), a "GBB" you could craft affecting all goods required (like the UUU) and two other types specific to two types of goods: perhaps boosted and sentient, would work.

In any case, making it easier on those who negotiate and cater in the same way the game does for those who fight, seems a good thing to pursue.

AJ