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    Your Elvenar Team

Dwarven Armorer

Henroo

Oh Wise One
Of course it's not the same thing. I'm asking people who propose this as a good idea for the game to justify why groups who think they can make 19 chests deserve more free stuff for doing so which will make it eaven easier for them to do the next time, and do nothing for the groups who can't do it no matter how hard they try becuase they don't all have 400+ explored provinces.
Does it take 400+ explored provinces per member for a FS to make 19 chests? And this is an honest question. I have never done the math on how many points per member it would take to do 19 chests and how many provinces each week that would take.
 

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
Does it take 400+ explored provinces per member for a FS to make 19 chests? And this is an honest question. I have never done the math on how many points per member it would take to do 19 chests and how many provinces each week that would take.
That's what's called a red herring in debate-speak. It might be 400, it might be 406, it might be 372. It's different for every player and for every tournament.

Why do groups who think they can make 19 chests deserve more free stuff for doing so, which will also make it even easier for them to do the next time?
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
Baseline for who?
For basically anyone beyond the 3rd chapter who is interested in it.

It used to be 2-3 FS per world, then for a looooong time it was 7-8, and now it's over 50 FS in every single world.
Elvenstats only shows the top 50 FS per world and 100% of them got over 40K.
the groups who can't do it no matter how hard they try becuase they don't all have 400+ explored provinces.
54 explored provinces is enough to have 6 of each type and do your share of 10 chests.
To enter chapter 4 requires a minimum of 50 explored provinces.

for 166,000 points (19 chests) your FS needs an average of 25 open provinces* of that week's type (225 total explored)
To enter chapter 10 requires a minimum of 220 explored provinces.

So those groups who don't have enough provinces open to get 10 chests or 19 chests have something they can work towards quite reasonably given proper motivation.
As for the prize compounding (success making success easier), that's exactly what the spire prizes do, and it's fine.
*Not counting the possibility of using FS perks where you could bank up to 25,000 points meaning a group where everyone does 20x6 could get there.
 
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Henroo

Oh Wise One
That's what's called a red herring in debate-speak. It might be 400, it might be 406, it might be 372. It's different for every player and for every tournament.
Bullshit! I asked an honest question about 400 provinces cleared. I freely admitted I had not done the math on this. And the only reason I mentioned 400 provinces cleared is because that is the figure **YOU** cited in your post. Don't say I am using a red herring when I use the exact figure you originally cited.
And it is not different at all for every player and every tournament. It is really a simple, fixed matter. A. How many points does a fellowship need to score to make 19 chests? B. Once you know the overall total, how many points per player is needed to get 19 chests? C. How many provinces per player is needed to get this total? Clearing all 6 rounds is worth 270 points per province.
 

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
Bullshit! I asked an honest question about 400 provinces cleared. I freely admitted I had not done the math on this. And the only reason I mentioned 400 provinces cleared is because that is the figure **YOU** cited in your post. Don't say I am using a red herring when I use the exact figure you originally cited.
And it is not different at all for every player and every tournament. It is really a simple, fixed matter. A. How many points does a fellowship need to score to make 19 chests? B. Once you know the overall total, how many points per player is needed to get 19 chests? C. How many provinces per player is needed to get this total? Clearing all 6 rounds is worth 270 points per province.
Nope. You focused on a single number and ignored the question I asked. So apparently the answer is 225

Now back to the question.

Why do groups who think they can make 19 chests deserve more free stuff for doing so, which will also make it even easier for them to do the next time?
 

The Fairy

Scroll-Keeper, Buddy Fan Club Member
Why do groups who think they can make 19 chests deserve more free stuff for doing so, which will also make it even easier for them to do the next time?
I can see your point and don't know if I am for or against this suggestion.
But for players who are not in a weekly 19 chests fs but dreaming about getting there then a better reward would make it easier to motivate the rest of their fs to go for 19 chests.
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
Why do groups who think they can make 19 chests deserve more free stuff for doing so, which will also make it even easier for them to do the next time?
Pretty biased wording of that question Ash... "deserve" "free stuff" "even easier"
kinda skewing things a bit...

Still, an answer:
Just like the spire prizes make doing the spire easier, the tournament can also offer a similar progression. A push week here or there that isn't quite so devastating due to the 1 DA refund could help.
Instead of being a kinda lame 13-14 chest FS we could go 10,10,10,19 or something.

For those FS who are already getting 19, who cares? they've topped out and need a new new challenge, and giving them 1 DA more or less isn't going to change anything meaningful.
 

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
For basically anyone beyond the 3rd chapter who is interested in it.

It used to be 2-3 FS per world, then for a looooong time it was 7-8, and now it's over 50 FS in every single world.
Elvenstats only shows the top 50 FS per world and 100% of them got over 40K.
40k is only ten chests, this idea is talking about a special prize for the two or three fellowships per world who get more than 160k.
 

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
Pretty biased wording of that question Ash...
Unlike everyone else who never uses biased wording when they ahve a bias on a question?

I'm asking people who want this to justify why it's good for the game. I don't think it is. I think it's good for a tiny fraction of players who already have most of the best stuff in the game. I think it will be a small incentive for the people who already have a chance of accomplishing the goal and zero incentive to any group that doesn't consistantly get around 15 chests per week every week.
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
40k is only ten chests, this idea is talking about a special prize for the two or three fellowships per world who get more than 160k.
Firstly, that was in response to your claim that so few players make even 10 chests.
Secondly, this idea is for the several hundred fellowships who could get there but don't at least in part due to lack of motivation, it is not for those very few who already make it (even the OP of this thread isn't in a 19 chest FS)

I'm asking people who want this to justify why it's good for the game
Answer: " I think it will be a small incentive for the people who already have a chance of accomplishing the goal"

That's it.

Flip the question on it's head: how would it make the game worse? The players in the 9 highest achieving FS get 1 extra DA? That's the downside? Who cares?
 

Henroo

Oh Wise One
Why do groups who think they can make 19 chests deserve more free stuff for doing so, which will also make it even easier for them to do the next time?
You seem to be under the impression that my fellowships get 19 chests. I assure you, they do not. I am not getting "free stuff" no matter what is decided here. I am just debating if it would be good or bad to increase the rewards in chest 19.

And you are correct that if the prize for chest 19 is bumped up then fellowships who already do all 19 on a regular basis will just get richer. However, increasing the prize in chest 19 would also give incentive for fellowships that do not currently get that far to push. Right now chest 19 is the exact same as chest 18. Other than pride, there is little reason for a fellowship to push on in order to get all 19 chests. But if the prize for chest 19 is increased, then it might become worthwhile for fellowships that usually average less than that to push.
 

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
Secondly, this idea is for the several hundred fellowships who could get there but don't at least in part due to lack of motivation, it is not for those very few who already make it (even the OP of this thread isn't in a 19 chest FS)
Why do they need the motivation? Groups do it now without that motivation.

Flip the question on it's head: how would it make the game worse? The players in the 9 highest achieving FS get 1 extra DA? That's the downside? Who cares?
The game is flush with a small number of players who get to the top of the spire every week and get 15 chests every week and do not inspire lower level players to stretch themselves to get there. It will be one more thing the "have" players get and the "have-not" players will mostly never get. It will add a straw to the frustration of players who aren't big enough or "good-enough" to be in the handful of fellowships who can manage it. A few will succeed and more will wander off in boredom at more perks for the giants in the game.

You seem to be under the impression that my fellowships get 19 chests. I assure you, they do not. I am not getting "free stuff" no matter what is decided here. I am just debating if it would be good or bad to increase the rewards in chest 19.

And you are correct that if the prize for chest 19 is bumped up then fellowships who already do all 19 on a regular basis will just get richer. However, increasing the prize in chest 19 would also give incentive for fellowships that do not currently get that far to push. Right now chest 19 is the exact same as chest 18. Other than pride, there is little reason for a fellowship to push on in order to get all 19 chests. But if the prize for chest 19 is increased, then it might become worthwhile for fellowships that usually average less than that to push.
Nope. I rarely use words by accident. If I meant to say "you," I would say you. I said "groups who think they can make 19 chests" because that's what I meant.

I don't care if groups who earn 19 chests get a dwarven armorer. My group will do so (infrequently) if it happens. I'm not going to get more points if it happens, because when I push I always push to the end of my provinces so I can't get any more points than I do now. I didn't need the promise of a dwarven armorer building to get there. I think it will be a tiny source of discontent for smaller players and I don't think it will do anything to make the game better on average. If the suggestion ever gets put into a form that has a chance of being polled, it will either pass or not, with no sweat of my brow. The "suggestion" was put here with a complete failure to follow the basics of the "important: read this before posting" post and I'm putting my two sense in as to why it isn't well considered. Everyone is free to disagree. I'll stop talking about it until there's a vote.
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
Why do they need the motivation? Groups do it now without that motivation.
Yeah, 9 groups do it. Just barely more than 1 per world. :rolleyes:
It will be one more thing the "have" players get and the "have-not" players will mostly never get. It will add a straw to the frustration of players who aren't big enough or "good-enough" to be in the handful of fellowships who can manage it.
Just like 10 chests and spire anyone with a desire can join such a group. There is no such thing as haves and have-nots in Elvenar, you're acting like Gold Spire & 10 chest FS are an exclusive club when the reality is that there aren't enough players who want it to fill the open spots.
E.G. My AM has had "recruiting" as her city name for over 2 years. Literally always looking for a player willing to join a gold10 FS.
 
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Astram

Forum Moderator
Elvenar Team
OK folks, let us all settle down and stop with the harsh words. Ideas are brought up here for debate and discussion and one of the guidelines is "Be flexible about your idea and open to criticism" as not everyone will have the same opinion. "You should phrase your replies in a constructive way. Treat others' ideas the way you would want yours to be treated." That being said there is no tolerance here for letting folks stomp all over others. Drop the level down a notch.

Astram
 

BrinDarby

Well-Known Member
how many FSs get 19 chests, very very few.....
while (2) UUUs = (1) DA ... I just dont see the need.
 

Yelu

New Member
I think the need for motivation does not need to be explained in detail. As you can see from the comments so far.
Motivation, not only for developing cities, but also for the most developed ones. Fellowships with large, medium and small cities, where everyone wants to continue playing. Balanced effort by all, exchange of experience and strategies, mutual assistance.
This needs no explanation. All you need is motivation.
 

CrazyWizard

Oh Wise One
I wish I had your stats for Dwarven Armorer drops! I went 6 weeks and didn't get one and I go to the top of Spire every week. I find that the DA drops are getting more rare.
Those stats assuming you go to the top every week and are for everyone on a large enough scale. the fact I dropped from 13 to 1 and back says enough
Stocks are volitile, and this is the main issue. people have a hard time coping with it, they use to much in good times and then are frustrated in bad times because you don't get it.

Of course it's not the same thing. I'm asking people who propose this as a good idea for the game to justify why groups who think they can make 19 chests deserve more free stuff for doing so which will make it eaven easier for them to do the next time, and do nothing for the groups who can't do it no matter how hard they try becuase they don't all have 400+ explored provinces.
Well said.
Tournaments should not be easier for people who already get 19 chests. they don't need an easier time.
19 chests are there for fun, and thats pretty much it. you get a few wonder points and some perk points and bragging rights. thats enough. (and yes I do have bragging rights about it so not some sour dude who fails)
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
Tournaments should not be easier for people who already get 19 chests. they don't need an easier time.
I don't care about them, this isn't for them, they already do it, and this feature wouldn't change that.
19 chests are there for fun, and thats pretty much it. you get a few wonder points and some perk points and bragging rights. thats enough. (and yes I do have bragging rights about it so not some sour dude who fails)
enough for you and 8 other fellowships, clearly not enough for thousands of other players.
 
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