Event Production Quests Rebalancing

[DeletedUser2870]

@Ashrem
Maybe cheating is too strong a word, but for me it still is using knowledge in advance.
I feel an event should be possible to finish WITHOUT having to refer to a list of quests ahead of time, dump tons of lvl 1 buildings in your city that have no other function than to be discarded again after their production is collected.
If one has a list of 100 sequential quests to be done in say 25 days, that means that one should be able to do 4 quests ON AVERAGE a day, even if one reckons in the fact a player needs to sleep.
Now I'm fine with not everyone being able to grab the final grand prize. In fact, I don't mind if some prizes only can be gained by buying extra event-currency. There is no reason why everyone should always be able to grab all prizes. But I am not fine with being unable to finish the sequential quest-line in pretty much MOST of the events within the set time without having to refer to ahead-of-time lists, without having to sit and wait to collect at exactly the time a production is finished. If one sets up a sequential line of quests with a set time, one needs to have a reasonable chance of actually finishing that line of quests in that time when done sequentially.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Now I'm fine with not everyone being able to grab the final grand prize. In fact, I don't mind if some prizes only can be gained by buying extra event-currency. There is no reason why everyone should always be able to grab all prizes.

The way I understand the need to rush through the list is not for the Grand Prizes, but for the Daily Prizes. I think some players are afraid that if they do not have all the points possible, as soon as possible, they will miss out on some cool daily prize, or multiples of that cool daily prize. Can you imagine the craziness if the wishing well or trade outpost were a day one daily prize?

 

[Ashrem]

I have zero issue with people who don't like it. No matter how the quests are designed, someone won't like it.

For me, if it's easy to get through the whole thing, then it's just boring. I think that large events are best designed when about 50% of players can get through them without more effort than they want to expend, while about a quarter have to struggle a little*, and about a quarter have to struggle a lot*. If everyone get through it without feeling pushed, then it's just standard play, and there's no real point.

* if they feel obliged to finish it.

 

[Socrates28]

...I could almost swear you haven't read a word I've typed, but if you honestly think the current system isn't broken, that I'm trying to force you to conform, all while claiming that other players don't have to play the same way you do, when they do have to if they want to have success in the events, that's cool. *scavenges around and pulls out pot* BUT I AM THE KETTLE.

I again find it curious that you accuse me of what you are doing. I have read every word you have typed in this thread (not all threads). I wonder if you have read mine. I maintain that if you want to play this game in a certain manner it is your God given right to do so. If that manner does not allow you to get to the goals you want to achieve, then change the manner in which you play within the parameters of the game.
These parameters are like our laws, they may be good laws or bad laws, they may need to be reinforced or repealed, but they are the law and until they are changed they govern our relationship with the state.
However, you maintain that the game is broken because that certain method of play which you follow does not get you what you want. The only logical thing to do is to change the way you play or find another game which suits that method.
I can only assume (Yes I know what that word means) that you are advocating for a change in those parameters. I take the opposite and opposing view as the failure of a particular method of play is not a sufficient reason to change something just to fit your taste.
With kindest personal regards,
POT

 

[DeletedUser2870]

I have zero issue with people who don't like it. No matter how the quests are designed, someone won't like it.

For me, if it's easy to get through the whole thing, then it's just boring. I think that large events are best designed when about 50% of players can get through them without more effort than they want to expend, while about a quarter have to struggle a little*, and about a quarter have to struggle a lot*. If everyone get through it without feeling pushed, then it's just standard play, and there's no real point.

* if they feel obliged to finish it.

I'm not too concerned with the daily prize rotation. Yes, I sometimes see a prize I'd very much like on day 1 or day 2, it is what it is. And I guess that some people do the quests as much for the daily prizes as for the final one. I know I save up my event-currency until I see a daily prize I deem worth going for. In my case, that means NOT any of the combo pop/culture ones, nor any building that generates coins for instance. And since I know I'm often unable to finish the sequential questline I also know I'm not going to get the full set. So of course my attention is more on the daily prizes. No use in focusing on something that is extremely unlikely and beat myself up over that or try and ruin my pleasure in the game over it.

And I don't mind having to struggle a bit or a lot. I'm fine with that as it is part of the game. And as I said, I don't mind overmuch not getting to the final prize either. What I do mind is the fact that I'm in MOST events unable to finish the sequential quests by doing them as presented without advance planning of productions. I feel a sequential line should be doable sequentially without that AND with a reasonable amount of sleep each day. One can either agree or disagree with me on that. One can say I should use the advance knowledge. I don't care. I feel that is like cheating and I honestly don't give a hoot about how others feel about my feeling on that topic.
I feel it's cheating and so I refuse to do so. And if that has as a consequence that I often don't get the full set, so be it. I'm sure as heck not going to set aside that principle for an in-game prize that is only good for a while. Doesn't mean I have to be happy about it.
But then again, I'm not too happy about the introduction of so many buildings that generate T3 goods either since it upsets the game-balance. And that already was screwed enough with the faulty 16:4:1 ratio without getting players to mass produce even more T3 goods for nothing. So at least it's a consolation to me that I'm not a big part of that.

 

[DeletedUser2870]

The way I understand the need to rush through the list is not for the Grand Prizes, but for the Daily Prizes. I think some players are afraid that if they do not have all the points possible, as soon as possible, they will miss out on some cool daily prize, or multiples of that cool daily prize. Can you imagine the craziness if the wishing well or trade outpost were a day one daily prize?

*grins*
I think Inno would be making a very smart move by putting such prizes on day 1 & 2. It will entice those people to spend diamonds/real money early on. A good source of extra revenue for Inno. Me, I'll just wait until it comes again. Or grab something else.

 

[DeletedUser20951]

I again find it curious that you accuse me of what you are doing.

Wait, did you comprehend my calling you and myself a hypocrite, or didn't you?

If that manner does not allow you to get to the goals you want to achieve, then change the manner in which you play within the parameters of the game.

*goes to point at the category this thread is posted in, then reads further*

I can only assume (Yes I know what that word means) that you are advocating for a change in those parameters. I take the opposite and opposing view as the failure of a particular method of play is not a sufficient reason to change something just to fit your taste.

It appears that you can contradict yourself just fine without my help. *nods sagely*

I feel it's cheating and so I refuse to do so.

For the most part (there have been exceptions), so do I, but have you also noticed that while the dissenters argue for supposed equity of balance, their main boast is how easy the current model is? Curious, that.

 

[DeletedUser20951]

We do not announce nor publish the Event quest-lines and their prizes ahead of time because they are intended to be discovered as the event progresses. This is intended.
We do understand that players have become accustomed to being fed the entire event ahead of time by fellow players. This is not intended.

Can I... Can I ethically use this as propaganda for my cause? If not, I'll still use it unethically. I would like to pose a genuine question, which I wait in eager anticipation upon my seat for. Let's say, for the sake of a bit of shared reality, that the quests are intended to last for roughly half of a long event, about ten days, yet those with the cheats (lists and whatnot) finish within a single day. There is nothing wrong with the setup, then? Everything is balanced and at peace in this circumstance? Nothing can be improved?

 

[Crowella]

Different things are "fun" for different people. So it will be hard for game designers to find a balance of things that are "fun" for a broad variety of people who play a game. (Or else they will focus their game on a less broad group of people who like a specific thing, but it seems to me that Elvenar tries to attract a somewhat broader range of folks than for example, people who only want to play something fairly passive like Farmville or only want a PvP wargame).

I'm just going to talk about what is fun for me. I joined Elvenar just as the Evolution of the Phoenix event was starting. Being a curious person, I googled the event (as I was googling many things Elvenar) and discovered the quest list. I then began to use it to plan ahead a little.

Along the way I "discovered" a number of strategies that have been discussed here. Such as having multiple lower-level tier 1 manufactories and low-level workshops. I was quite pleased with myself when I also "discovered" that the mix of workshops and manufactories didn't have to stay the same. Rather, I identified 12 spots in my tiny city that could be used for either manufactories or workshops and rotated through appropriate combinations (I never went down to less than 3 tier 1 manufactories or 3 workshops, but the six slots in between varied depending on the event.) I also sometimes began to start a production run for several quests down the line, like toolboxes, while completing shorter runs like beverages or simple tools only using one or two of my other workshops.

This was a lot of work ,and one day I collected a toolbox out of order and closed the game for a few hours out of frustration.

But overall it was fun, and having the list of quests in advance made it more fun for me because I was able to have the challenge of doing all that. Other people might hate doing that sort of thing (at times I hated it, like the toolbox incident!).

I hope that Inno will continue to design events so that people with a variety of playstyles and interests can do things the way that are most fun for them, including planners and more spontaneous take things as they come types.

Edited to add, as if this post were not already long enough: It occurred to me while I was answering another player's question about what the different chapters were, that building and tearing things down, having a city that is in flux, is a planned and intentional part of Elvenar the game. For example, we build and tear down portals and buildings for guest races in later chapters. In fact, such recycling is really a practical way to keep a playerbase engaged in a game where there is a hard limit on the amount of space in a city.

So the idea that people "throw up" and "tear down" buildings in response to events is not necessarily an exploit or a bug -- it's a planned behavior or a feature. Is it the most efficient way of progressing through the game as a whole? No. Clearly there are game aspects that favor having higher-level buildings that produce more per square at the cost of increased culture. But having a dynamic mix of higher and lower-level buildings, and an ever-changing combination of them, is perhaps more of a feature of Elvenar than a problem.

 

[Ashrem]

Let's say, for the sake of a bit of shared reality, that the quests are intended to last for roughly half of a long event, about ten days, yet those with the cheats (lists and whatnot) finish within a single day. There is nothing wrong with the setup, then? Everything is balanced and at peace in this circumstance? Nothing can be improved?

How about, let's say the quests are designed to make Inno money, and a person willing to drop $1500.00 in diamonds can finish in a single day (or, really, under an hour), and there are people who enjoy the the challenge of accomplishing for free what it takes someone else hundreds of dollars to accomplish. How unbalanced is this circumstance?

 

[DeletedUser2870]

@Crowella

So the idea that people "throw up" and "tear down" buildings in response to events is not necessarily an exploit or a bug -- it's a planned behavior or a feature. Is it the most efficient way of progressing through the game as a whole? No. Clearly there are game aspects that favor having higher-level buildings that produce more per square at the cost of increased culture. But having a dynamic mix of higher and lower-level buildings, and an ever-changing combination of them, is perhaps more of a feature of Elvenar than a problem.

Part of the game is putting up new buildings and tearing down older ones, granted.
But some cannot be torn down and some one will not tear down. I mean, please tell me if you think there is any sane person who will tear down all his level 27 boosted manufacturies? Sure, I tore down some of my upgraded ones over time. One T1 when I just did not have the space anymore and was short on pop as well and figured I produced enough with one less.
When the sentient goods were introduced I tore down one of my T1 boosted ones to make room for one that is boosed in the sentient goods. I did that again for the T2 and T3 boosted goods as well.
But there is a difference between doing something like that to reorganise the city and constantly placing a bunch of lvl 1 workshops and/or manufactories to prestart productions for an event

 

[Crowella]

But there is a difference between doing something like that to reorganise the city and constantly placing a bunch of lvl 1 workshops and/or manufactories to prestart productions for an event

Is there? Both are uses of game mechanics to accomplish something in the game. You might prefer not to do it and instead devote your entire city area to "properly upgraded" buildings. That is fine. It is one way to play. There are others. Each will have advantages and disadvantages.

 

[SoggyShorts]

I am not fine with being unable to finish the sequential quest-line in pretty much MOST of the events within the set time without having to refer to ahead-of-time lists, without having to sit and wait to collect at exactly the time a production is finished.

How much space do you leave dedicated for events?
How many WS/T1 do you normally have?
How many log-ins do you find acceptable?

I ask because although I more often reference how some of my cities complete an event in just a day or two, I have other cities that only start quests as they appear (for testing purposes) and have never failed to complete a sequential questline.

 

[DeletedUser19723]

Is there? Both are uses of game mechanics to accomplish something in the game. You might prefer not to do it and instead devote your entire city area to "properly upgraded" buildings. That is fine. It is one way to play. There are others. Each will have advantages and disadvantages.

Crowella, I hear what you are saying. I don't disagree. I think it always comes down to choice. What does a player want to achieve (get out of?) a game, and what are they willing or able to do to get there. Spend real money, or don't. Read quest lists, or don't. Build a multitude of L1 workshops /factories, or don't. There is no right way, as has been said in this thread.
Personally, I think the longer one has been playing games that have quests as a big focus, the more one changes how they think about these quests and their importance or lack thereof for enjoyment of the game. Years back (yeah, I'm old ) when I played games with quests, I was absolutely driven to do them all and get to that final grand prize, which wasn't always that grand. But, go, go, go - the challenge of it all. Now I think about what I want from a given event and what it's worth to me in time and money, and interest in the game.
Case in point, when the additional 20 sequential quests were made available I decided not to do them. I'd had enough. That was right for me. Choice.

 

[DeletedUser20709]

It's almost never possible to cater to everyone, all the time. . .

Nuff said.

 

[DeletedUser2870]

How much space do you leave dedicated for events?
How many WS/T1 do you normally have?
How many log-ins do you find acceptable?

I ask because although I more often reference how some of my cities complete an event in just a day or two, I have other cities that only start quests as they appear (for testing purposes) and have never failed to complete a sequential questline.

I normally have 10 Workshops. And my 6 regular T1 factories, +1 for the sentient goods. I've considered scrapping 1 of the T1s, but will wait to see what Inno has planned for the upcoming chapters since I kinda anticipate them forcing players to get the 3rd kind of factory for yet another kind of boost and this way I can reserve that space and pop requirement. Since I don't need the pop right now, there is no reason to scrap it yet.

Space dedicated to events depends partly on the guestrace buildings and how much reorganising I'm doing in my city, so there's no set amount for that, though I tend to leave space for 10 lvl 1 workshops or factories as needed and will be scrapped when I need the space for the other kind.
Logins vary greatly due to workschedule (yeah, I know, shockingly I have to work and in area's where no phones are allowed), so I may be able to log in as much as 6 times a day, or as little as 1 or 2 times. Or none. But I expect an average of 3-4x/day is the norm for most people.

Btw, the amount of space is completely irrelevant. I have enough. Login times are a different story. Having to produce X times the 15 minute WS production sucks, since I may only have time to quickly log in once every 4-6 hours. So having to do say 50 with 10 regular and 10 temp workshops takes between 12-18 hours. As I said, it sucks, but it still can be done. But having huge numbers of 1 and 2 day productions needed is another matter. Especially since the core factories lose that ability when upgraded to sentient lvl.
And yes, in my test cities I probably could get them done if I activated them again. That doesn't mean a lot since they are tests anyway, so it's way easier to scrap a lot.

And I'm sure you do the sequentials in a few days in some cities, but only because you use the lists. It's bloody impossible to do them in a few days without dedicating a lot of space and buildings. And it may well be that you finish the sequentials in order as they appear in some cities. But I can say you very likely spend WAY more time on the game than I do. But whether you can is completely irrelevant to other players.
I'm not saying you shouldn't or anyone else shouldn't use the lists. I don't give a damn whether you do or not. They are there. I say I feel it's like cheating so I do not use them. What anyone else does or doesn't is none of my business nor concern. Just like I don't give a -beep-censored-beep- what anyone feels about the fact I don't as I feel it's none of their -beep-censored-beep- business. I just made the remark that I feel it should be possible to do the sequential quests without preparing ahead for someone who is a casual player and not glued to the game all the time. Feel free to disagree on that. Or to agree.
I don't see why people here seem to think I feel it's unfair, or has to be changed. I'm not saying so. I just made a remark about MY play and MY experiences.

 

[SoggyShorts]

, the amount of space is completely irrelevant. I have enough. Login times are a different story. Having to produce X times the 15 minute WS production sucks, since I may only have time to quickly log in once every 4-6 hours. So having to do say 50 with 10 regular and 10 temp workshops takes between 12-18 hours.

This is a total contradiction. You say space doesn't matter, but then say that doing a quest for 50 productions with 20 factories sucks. Wouldn't it suck less with 50 factories?

But I can say you very likely spend WAY more time on the game than I do.

You'd be surprised. I generally log in once for about 5 minutes in the morning(10 on Tuesdays) and once in the evening for about an hour(while doing something else like watching TV) That's it. I spend WAY more time on the forums than the game.

But whether you can is completely irrelevant to other players.

I disagree. There must be some target ability level/time requirement, and for my test cities I use 2 logins, zero diamonds, minimum scouting and 2-4 expansions for events.
If those cities can do it, then most cities can do it, so it's not "irrelevant".

I just made the remark that I feel it should be possible to do the sequential quests without preparing ahead for someone who is a casual player and not glued to the game all the time. Feel free to disagree on that. Or to agree.

I actually agree, and my position is that I'm surprised you find this isn't already the case.

 

[DeletedUser2870]

@SoggyShorts
Ok, you got me there on the space, that was badly worded. Yes, space matters, but I keep the space about the same throughout the game, so it doesn't matter where I am in a chapter, unless I happen to be just at the start and have all the guestrace space available as well.
I find that the 10 spots for lvl 1workshops should be enough.

The time does suprise me. I try to log in when I can, but often only have a few minutes at a time, except on days off when I also happen to have nothing else planned .

But as for doing the quests sequentially, no I often do NOT manage to do all of them in the time given. Which may have something to do with when and how long I can log in.

But now that I'm nearing the end of the Constructs I'll probably be rearringing the city bigtime anyway (and take a huge drop in points) as I plan on selling off one main WS, just sold off an Armory, and probably will be selling 2 residences, maybe up to 4 since I plan on putting up the Construct AW's as well.
Or maybe sell off fewer residences but more event pop/culture hybrids. I'll have to puzzle a bit yet.

 

[DeletedUser20951]

How about, let's say the quests are designed to make Inno money, and a person willing to drop $1500.00 in diamonds can finish in a single day (or, really, under an hour), and there are people who enjoy the the challenge of accomplishing for free what it takes someone else hundreds of dollars to accomplish. How unbalanced is this circumstance?

Dude, it took way too long for this to click, but you have actually provided the best argument for rebalancing, from Inno's perspective and those who are supportive of the company (it's partly my reason, but it was a vague, free-floating idea until now). This is extremely unbalanced, and I can come up with nothing for why anybody should be able to complete all quests in a single day without paying to do so, other than to give the finger to the players who spend to accomplish it. I have no doubt that this lowers revenue, although I don't have even a slight estimate on how much, which could be debated endlessly with speculation.

 

[Crowella]

why anybody should be able to complete all quests in a single day without paying to do so, other than to give the finger to the players who spend to accomplish it. I have no doubt that this lowers revenue, although I don't have even a slight estimate on how much, which could be debated endlessly with speculation.

Why should any of us be able to do anything for free that someone else can pay for? Like eventually complete buildings and do research and gather supplies and participate in events? Answer: Because all of us non-paying players help make the experience better for the people who pay. If everyone in the game were a paying player, there would 1) not be enough players and 2) there would not be sufficient diversity in strategies to maintain balance.

Arguing that a non-paying player should not be able to apply strategies and work to achieve similar results (or at least satisfactory results) or else Inno loses money is an argument against their basic business model.

Full disclosure: I spent $5 during double diamond days recently, not so much because I feel like I need diamond as I've enjoyed playing Elvenar and want to return at least a little to the devs for their work.