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Fellowship drama

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Ashrem, Jul 9, 2017.

  1. Ashrem

    Ashrem Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2016
    I believe Soggy is using "program" in the sense of "The process we use" as opposed to an application.
     
  2. SoggyShorts

    SoggyShorts Well-Known Member

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    Right, "program" was misleading, it's just a google doc- it's been adapted by something @Katwijk and @Mykan shared I think.
    Looks like this:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HQJYg3FJWD_a3Z2ilDxYoZbRB64A7PCVl7F3y6VcEG8/edit?usp=sharing

    IMO it's the best system since everyone can donate as little or as much as they want, and it levels up wonders all the way instead of a bunch of wonders a little at a time. Even after a tournament ends you have a place to dump 75 KP if you need to. It is also by far the most work though.

    If someone could actually make a program that does this I would buy it.
     
  3. Deawyne

    Deawyne Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2016
    I was in Mykan's FS when he started the wonders "program," and even though I participated and supported people that enjoyed it, I personally find it very time intensive to use. I already track visits, boosts, scores.

    Though the targeted person's AW gets upgraded "fast," that means many weeks before the last person in the rotation gets theirs upgraded "fast," so I really don't find the benefit. AW 5KP threads are a "wash" anyway, and once you get some of the top KP to get the rewards, I don't really see the point. Sure, one person at a time gets "fast" KP. But not really, not when they've had to wait probably at least as long as someone doing continuous 5KP swaps.

    5KP swaps don't take me anytime to record. I do enough as is. :)
     
    wyldaeval and Ashrem like this.
  4. taggathias

    taggathias Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2016
    Especially since I suck at spreadsheets. ;)

    Honestly, there is no "wrong system." I find the KP swap chain annoying and hard to keep track of, others say the same thing about the spreadsheet system. Doesn't mean one of us is right or wrong, it just means we have different preferences.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017 at 9:24 PM
    wyldaeval likes this.
  5. Ashrem

    Ashrem Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2016
    Not sure what method you use, but ours has been mostly bulletproof and easy.

    New fellowship email every month (usually started by the archmage, but really anyone who spends the time to put a closed message in the old one and start a new one)
    Each emails consists of approximately (put 5 into [person]'s [Wonder]. [name of my wonder] please.
    (so: I put five into Linda's Library. Watchtower, please)

    You reply to the chain, wait a moment to make sure there was no overlap in someone else replying at the same time, then put the five in. Nothing to keep track of, since whoever last put five in gets the next five and they are at the top of the email

    Our two variations:
    1. most weeks we organize a separate thread for our Tournament KP. person one says they are in and lists their AW. Each person participating only has to watch who was below them to put all their Tourney KP in. When the thread closes, the first person puts theirs into the Last one on the list.
    2. sometimes two or three people will make side deals if they are all tech locked for a few days so they can immediately dump 10 or more in the morning.
     
    Deawyne likes this.
  6. Deawyne

    Deawyne Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2016
    You find a spreadsheet easier to maintain than the last person saying they need 5KP in one building, in an email chain? :)

    I didn't call it "wrong," I said I wasn't willing to maintain and track a spreadsheet list.
     
  7. SoggyShorts

    SoggyShorts Well-Known Member

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    There is no "rotation" in our program, in the normal sense of the word. You get out what you put in (plus the 10% rewards)
    The next wonder that comes up will belong to the player with the highest balance (KP donated minus received)
    Since November we have averaged one upgrade every 32 hours- I can't see a 5 KP swap thread being faster than that.

    Spreadsheet
    + Wonders get levelled all the way, rather than having KP spread out
    + Unlimited Donations, so even if techlocked at tournament end, multiple players can donate dozens of KP all at once.
    + No one outside our FS has ever managed to snipe a reward spot on our wonders.
    + The rewards (approx 10% depending on wonder) are distributed fairly as they all go to the players wonder, not the donators.
    + Players that don't have a wonder yet can also contribute, as their donations are recorded, and will be returned once they build one.

    - Tracking is a buttload of work
    - If some noob starts their upgrade before you record the donations, it really screws things up
    - If a player quits or leaves the FS with a negative balance (more KP received than donated) the FS has to eat that loss.


    KP Swap
    +Super easy to track
    +Virtually foolproof

    -Limited in how much you can donate at once. (this can be mitigated by having a 5 KP, 10 KP and 20 KP thread, or side deals)
    -Still possible for outsiders to snipe rewards
    -Rewards are kind of a crapshoot, making it almost the same as just donating to your own wonder.
    -KP is spread across multiple wonders (having 20 wonders at level 1.8 in a FS is the same as 20 at level 1.0)

    As you can see, each system has pros and cons. I wouldn't be surprised if the amount of work is the #1 factor in deciding which way to go though.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2017 at 1:46 AM
    taggathias likes this.
  8. Risen Malchiah

    Risen Malchiah Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2017
    In a KP swap thread where people donate randomly, isn't it still mostly a wash unless the players benefit from the rewards for being top donator? It may be more of a headache to manage, but it seems that it would be the most efficient if members listed their wonders in a spreadsheet and then people sign up to level that wonder, guaranteeing the donator a reward placement.
     
    SoggyShorts likes this.
  9. SoggyShorts

    SoggyShorts Well-Known Member

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    Exactly, unless you do some careful planning or get lucky, you won't get rewards, which makes it kinda the same as donating to your own wonder.
    On Beta I've been in FS with KP swaps, and I just delete the thread. It's simpler just to donate to myself, and then when it's 10-20 KP from being full I let the FS know that they can come snipe rewards.
     
  10. Deawyne

    Deawyne Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2016
    Ya, tracking who's doing what, like you say, is a lot of work. But, the "little guy" that doesn't contribute as much as the "big guy" is gonna wait a good, long time. I used the word "rotation," but I know it's not rotating, it's based on KP. 36 hours sounds fantastic. I just wonder how long the person contributing the least KP has to wait for their "3 day to fill an AW"

    It's true that 5kp chains are plodding along and has drawbacks. But I wouldn't do it any other way because as soon as a game becomes more work than fun, I have a cutoff of how I spend my time.
     
    wyldaeval likes this.
  11. SoggyShorts

    SoggyShorts Well-Known Member

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    That is what happens in a swap thread, not our spreadsheet. In a swap thread your wonder gets filled once you have donated the same amount as your own wonder needs, so small guys are slower than big guys (which is appropriate anyways as players should get out what they put in)

    We actually use the "pile-on" column in the link above to pick the next wonder.
    "Pile on" is your balance minus the size of your wonder.
    For example
    Player 1 has a balance of 112 and a level 1 GA needing 109 KP
    Their pile on is 3
    Player 2 has a balance of 220 and a level 11 GA needing 450 KP
    Their pile on is -230

    Player 1 would get their wonder upgraded first, even though P2 has contributed more to the pool. The reason we do this is that the little wonder will only take a day, and it's better for the FS as a whole to have a level 2 and 11 GA than a level 1 and 11.5 GA, so actually smaller players get levelled sooner than big players.
     
  12. Deawyne

    Deawyne Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2016
    How would small guys be slower with a KP swap? They gain KP every hour just like the big guys. Big guys might earn extra KP from extra provinces, but that's limited too. I help out lower ranks with lots of extra goods during tournaments so they can do as many or more provinces than me, and earn more KP than me. I've found that members in our FS that are far far lower rank than me upgrade their AWs just as fast, or faster than me because they tend to be tech locked more.
     
  13. SoggyShorts

    SoggyShorts Well-Known Member

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    That's strange. I wouldn't expect anyone to get techlocked at all until chapter 8+
    Wait.... do we have different definitions of "small guys"?
    To me "small guys" are anyone in chapter 1-6, maybe chapter 7.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2017 at 2:07 AM
  14. TedGrau

    TedGrau Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2017
    Tech-locks can happen at many stages. I was tech-locked for a few days in very early chapters because I did not have enough tier 2 goods to move forward. The requirement goes from research this building to have 1000 goods in just 2 days.

    I was also tech-locked, or as some say province locked, at the end of chapter 5 because my military lagged. That was about 1 week and I gave all my wonders a shiny new level. Recently I was tech-locked for a day because I shot off 2 provinces for the event instead of on my planned schedule and again for a day and half because I recalculated my copper needs and decided to upgrade all 5 foundries to L3 to avoid a 1 week tech-lock at the end of the chapter.

    It is really easy to become tech-locked when you gain an average of 37 KP per day.
     
    Deawyne likes this.
  15. SoggyShorts

    SoggyShorts Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I guess many players don't plan things out very far in advance, and many more probably don't focus enough on guest race space to avoid techlock either.
     
    wyldaeval likes this.
  16. Ashrem

    Ashrem Well-Known Member

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    Nov 6, 2016
    A few even just decide to pause and level wonders without being tech locked. The insanity!
     
  17. Deawyne

    Deawyne Active Member

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    Jun 28, 2016
    First, a Chapter 1 player should not be investing in KP for anything but building their city. They don't even have an AW to join an AW program. If the program is required by everyone in your FS, it's because you don't allow Chapter 1 players to join. (not you personally, but any AM) Players don't even get their 1st AW tech unlocked until mid-2nd chapter, and even then it requires runes to fill them to build them.

    Now consider that in chapter 2, a player may get golden abyss and want to upgrade it right away. They could do that alone, with every KP they get from only the hourly earning, in just 4.5 days. Why would they want to join a KP thread when they should be building their cities?

    I've had a huge variety of players get tech locked and it was an absolute mystery to me how anyone could get tech locked prior to dwarves chapter, but they do (for reasons already stated by Ted). Also, my FS helps new players with 10K of each T1 good with 1:4 trades, so even though they have the goods not to get tech locked, there's nothing we can do about tools except give them visits and have them boost their culture buildings. I don't allow non-boosted cities in our FS because they are continuously tech locked.

    Now, some FS don't accept members below 10K score, which is chapter 3. Below 20K score is about chapter 4. Not sure how any player could be called anything but "little guy" until they're in about fairy chapter.

    If everyone was a "planner" and read every forum thread, they might be prepared for what's in store for the dwarf and beyond guest race chapters. But the typical scenario I see is people get tech locked in dwarves chapter. I never have, and I have 2 cities beyond dwarf chapter. I have given advice and tips, written up things, posted links to other Elvenar tips websites til I'm blue in the face, but players do what they wanna do and build the way they wanna build.

    I once had a player ask me if completing dwarf chapter in 2 months was faster than usual. I said that I don't base how long it takes them to get through a chapter "fast" so much as how long they were tech locked. And I still stand by that. I'm a planner, I don't want to be tech locked. But the only time I've ever donated KP to my own, or someone else's AW is when I am tech locked.

    I do not expect players to join a KP program because I think it's far more beneficial to them personally to build their cities. Let's talk about the abyss. Yes it gives extra coins and population. But if they'd upgrade their houses, build all relevant culture and tear down their old culture, have their culture boosted, and all the rest of what it takes to get 150 or more % culture boost, they'd get more coins and supplies to do the things they want. They'd gain score by upgrading that housing and factories, rather than the meager amounts (in the beginning) of an AW (and even then, I consider ranking points for many AWs rather meager compared to other buildings one could build.

    It's all philosophical and how one builds their FS, and how important they think AWs are. The main AW I consider worth upgrading is the Mountain Halls, which isn't obtained until later anyway, to get the goods boosts.
     
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  18. SoggyShorts

    SoggyShorts Well-Known Member

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    Right, so everything you posted explains why "small guys" would get their wonders levelled slower, regardless of which (if any) wonder program is in place.
     
  19. Deawyne

    Deawyne Active Member

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    Jun 28, 2016
    How? A person doing their own abyss takes 4.5 days. If they are waiting for their "turn" based on how much KP they've donated, it's gonna be awhile.
     
  20. wyldaeval

    wyldaeval Active Member

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    Aug 24, 2016
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    Female
    Location:
    Mississippi/Washington
    So true!!! Being the AM and tracking so many other things, the last thing I want is something else to track! When more than 1 dozen spreadsheets and math are involved, I'd expect to get paid because it just became work. Anyway, math makes my head hurt. :confused:

    I find it interesting that some "planners" (myself included) find the loosely structured 5 kp chain easier to deal with, and some that don't appear to plan everything out as much seem to prefer the more structured ...what to call it...."member chain kp dump" that's tracked. I could be wrong, but that's how it looks to me....

    ...but getting back on topic, I think we can all agree to dislike drama in our FS, should we be unfortunate enough to have it rear it's ugly head. ;)
     

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