How is this not "pushing"?

[Gath Of Baal]

Part of the problem with a player making multiple accounts solely for the purpose of self donating to their main accounts ancient wonders, is that nowhere in the actual game itself are the "game rules" listed. You must use the forums to find these things out and to be able to see any type of game rules. Only a small portion of the player base use the forums.
On the game login in screen there is a clickable terms of service and nowhere in this terms of service does it mention the game rules other then the use of bots, mods and taking advantage of in game bugs.
I have talked to several people in the various fellowships I have been in, that had multiple accounts solely to improve upon their main accounts ancient wonders, that where oblivious to the fact there was even a rule against doing this. But upon learning that what they were doing was wrong, they stopped doing it.
So I think the game rules need to be listed in the game itself somewhere and just not on the forums, this might stop some of the multiple account self donaters

 

[SoggyShorts]

I played a game where people figured out how to automate the game, and the one guy made a business out of it and made enough money from selling game automation to send his kids to expensive private schools.

Nice. It wasn't really cheating, but I made a company on Runescape back in the day.
I traded

• coins+ores for bars with players wanting to level their smelting
• bars+coins for cannon balls for players wanting to level blacksmithing
• cannon balls for coins to players wanting to level archery
• coins for ores to players wanting to level mining.

I had around 100 "employees" at the peak
Made millions. At one point I was probably in the top 30 richest players. Sold some Party hats etc for RL$. (that was the cheating part) Made a few hundred bucks before they changed the whole trading system.

And mom said video games rot your brain.....

 

[SoggyShorts]

I have talked to several people ..... that had multiple accounts solely to improve upon their main accounts ancient wonders, that where oblivious to the fact there was even a rule against doing this.

Really? I mean.... really? I can't imagine not at least feeling like you are "getting away" with something. Sure you might not know if there is a specific rule prohibiting your actions, but on some level you have got to be aware that what you are doing isn't right.

I knew that there are 2 types of players. One that brings an exploit to the attention of the devs so they can fix it, and one that will keep quiet and hope to use it for as long as possible. I never even thought of a third type that thinks it makes total sense and there's nothing wrong with it.

 

[DeletedUser3297]

Banning a player for "pushing" will affect the bottom line for InnoGames. Most players who operate accounts in this manner are doing whatever they can to rise to the top. This also means spending a lot of money, tens of thousands of dollars could potentially be lost by banning players who have multiple accounts for this reason. Therefore, to keep whatever revenue they have left after all the bad updates and the terrible bugs that still affect the game, there is no reason to ban a player for spending money AND pushing resources. For anyone who has contacted support about a breach of rules concerning pushing, watch how fast they do nothing about it...

 

[qaccy]

Banning a player for "pushing" will affect the bottom line for InnoGames. Most players who operate accounts in this manner are doing whatever they can to rise to the top. This also means spending a lot of money, tens of thousands of dollars could potentially be lost by banning players who have multiple accounts for this reason. Therefore, to keep whatever revenue they have left after all the bad updates and the terrible bugs that still affect the game, there is no reason to ban a player for spending money AND pushing resources. For anyone who has contacted support about a breach of rules concerning pushing, watch how fast they do nothing about it...

Not really sure what 'bad updates' you're talking about. The game's changed since when it first came out, that's about all that can be definitively said. Whether those changes are good or bad is subjective. For my part, I'm still enjoying the game and think that balance is in a much better place than it was originally. Not perfect, and yes, there are still bugs from time to time but the game as a whole is still loads of fun for me.

Anyway, Inno isn't quite as money-hungry as you think to permit breaking the rules, at least not on a company-wide level. I've known whales over on Forge of Empires who've been banned from the game for their behavior and activities in-game. I would imagine that applies here as well, as it's still the same company even if the actual team members are different. Thing is, as I said earlier, you're not really going to hear about it because why would someone who was obviously doing something wrong complain about being banned? Especially true in this game, where the social features are decidedly lacking even this far into the game's life. No global chat in particular is a big deal when it comes to proliferating information or 'drama' as some would call it, so even as people are being banned it ends up slipping through the cracks. But now I'm rambling...

 

[DeletedUser3297]

Whether those changes are good or bad is subjective. For my part, I'm still enjoying the game and think that balance is in a much better place than it was originally. Not perfect, and yes, there are still bugs from time to time but the game as a whole is still loads of fun for me.

Yes, the updates have had a positive affect for me, however there are many players who quit or vowed never to spend money again until they "fixed" the battlesystem that was "broken" Overall what they have done has made it a better game for me, but not everyone, including some big spenders feel the same way.

Anyway, Inno isn't quite as money-hungry as you think to permit breaking the rules, at least not on a company-wide level. I've known whales over on Forge of Empires who've been banned from the game for their behavior and activities in-game. I would imagine that applies here as well, as it's still the same company even if the actual team members are different.

The thing about any corporation is you "can't rob Peter to pay Paul"

Elvenar has to stand on it's own as a game. Inno is not going to pull income from FoE to support Elvenar. It may be the same company, but a differnt support team, different development team. You can't be a sustainable game if you are being supported by another game. If Elvenar is not making a profit, then Elvenar will cease to exist..

 

[DeletedUser9131]

Banning a player for "pushing" will affect the bottom line for InnoGames. Most players who operate accounts in this manner are doing whatever they can to rise to the top. This also means spending a lot of money, tens of thousands of dollars could potentially be lost by banning players who have multiple accounts for this reason. Therefore, to keep whatever revenue they have left after all the bad updates and the terrible bugs that still affect the game, there is no reason to ban a player for spending money AND pushing resources. For anyone who has contacted support about a breach of rules concerning pushing, watch how fast they do nothing about it...

Also, to add onto this.

Why does it matter if the player isn't affecting you, or anyone else(in reference to soggy) I'm just a newb washed up on the beach, but I don't see the exact issue.

They're probably trying to get to the top of the leaderboard, doing this, or just paying thousands really isn't a difference to me, you could argue just paying thousands to get to the top is cheating, but it really doesn't make a difference, a paying player is going to rise to the top one way or another.

I hate/love whales in every game.

Love em because they fund the game because they want to hit the top so badly, this allows hundreds if not thousands of the players to not spend money, and the game continues to go on because of this.

Hate em because it's a lot of money that they're spending on a game to reach the top, which has nothing to do with skill, but who has the biggest wallet, but they see it as being 'better' somehow.

PS: This was just a paragraph agreeing with you.

 

[DeletedUser3640]

If the spenders and pushers are the same people, I guess that justifies Inno's position to themselves.

Right. As if "unfair" advatage over others from spending money isn't enough. "Let them screw the rules, they have money" - Inno. I call bs on that.

I am not sure how that affects your account as it doesn't take away from you or stop you from exploring, upgrading, etc.

It does affect me though. I'm kinda competitive player, and I care about tournament leaderboards (plus higher positions give ranking points as well, which is a nice bonus to have). Right now few "pushers" are constantly topping tournaments, and that upsets me no matter how silly that might sound. And yep, they are money-spenders as well.

now what is unbalanced? we can argue about that.

Can't we just ask for definiton from game mods/community managers, w.e. they're called now? They have to provide definition/explanation, or else it's up to us to define that, meaning that I can say that unbalanced for me means "hundreds of thousands of KP"... and the sad part is... I'll be correct in this regard.

I never even thought of a third type that thinks it makes total sense and there's nothing wrong with it.

We're slowly but surely figuring out that these players are actually the smartest ones. If Game mods don't give a damn about game rules (except for like probably racism, foul language etc.), why should players?

Most players who operate accounts in this manner are doing whatever they can to rise to the top. This also means spending a lot of money

Yep. I believe that ranking system actually facilitates such behavior (screwing the rules, that is).

P.S. Super tempted to start pushing my main account, lol. I want my city filled with 10+ leveled AWs as well

 

[Gath Of Baal]

Really? I mean.... really? I can't imagine not at least feeling like you are "getting away" with something. Sure you might not know if there is a specific rule prohibiting your actions, but on some level you have got to be aware that what you are doing isn't right.

I agree with you... But to remove all doubt the rules still should be posted in the game.

I knew that there are 2 types of players. One that brings an exploit to the attention of the devs so they can fix it, and one that will keep quiet and hope to use it for as long as possible. I never even thought of a third type that thinks it makes total sense and there's nothing wrong with it.

I would even add 1 more type.. The one who knows about it but doesn't report it but doesn't use it either, because they do not give a crap.

 

[DeletedUser9166]

Please Inno, you really need to address the problem of pushing already. You forced yourself into this situation and now you will have to be a lot more specific about what is allowed and what isn't, or start deleveling some wonders / banning people.

There are many players now on all servers (the subtype who also care about ranking / city building skills / spending more time here to advance faster), many of them paying customers, who think that playing by the rules, playing fair, going by the "obvious" interpretation of pushing, has given them an unbeatable disadvantage.

Some of them are funding the game so that cheaters can overtake them and mock them. So why keep "playing" then, you are risking losing this player base.

 

[Bruce The Fierce]

I think we need to get a better definition of pushing to help Inno Games come up with a way to fight it (assuming they want to fight it). For me a simple test that Inno could implement would be to compare the amount of KP account A gives other accounts VS the amount of KP it receives from other accounts. If someone gives 1000 KP but also gets 1000 KP, they are in a KP swapping group. If the someone gives 1000 KP and gets none back, they are pushing. Assuming that data on KP transfers is kept in the database (and it should be) this would be a fairly straight forward DB query.

 

[DeletedUser7370]

I think we need to get a better definition of pushing to help Inno Games come up with a way to fight it (assuming they want to fight it). For me a simple test that Inno could implement would be to compare the amount of KP account A gives other accounts VS the amount of KP it receives from other accounts. If someone gives 1000 KP but also gets 1000 KP, they are in a KP swapping group. If the someone gives 1000 KP and gets none back, they are pushing. Assuming that data on KP transfers is kept in the database (and it should be) this would be a fairly straight forward DB query.

There is a small problem with that. I have received a lot of KP on some of my wonders from fellowship members. In one case a member of my former fellowship provide almost all of a level, and I never asked for any KP. I would tend to only give a few back when it is a random thing. Again I have an FS member that has made a sizeable donation to one of my wonders without me asking and without asking that I give back, and my current FS has a formal wonder KP swap program.

 

[Pheryll]

If the someone gives 1000 KP and gets none back, they are pushing. Assuming that data on KP transfers is kept in the database (and it should be) this would be a fairly straight forward DB query.

Why should the giver be targeted as opposed to the receiver? Many people give a lot of KP away when they are tech locked. If others are not reciprocating, how is it their fault? And if all you do is take out a feeder, then another feeder can simply replace it.

 

[DeletedUser3640]

There is a small problem with that. I have received a lot of KP on some of my wonders from fellowship members. In one case a member of my former fellowship provide almost all of a level, and I never asked for any KP. I would tend to only give a few back when it is a random thing. Again I have an FS member that has made a sizeable donation to one of my wonders without me asking and without asking that I give back, and my current FS has a formal wonder KP swap program.

There must be a starting point though. 1000 KPs threshold is a good example, but I'd increase it to 1500. 1000 KPs are basically worth 40 days of playing, ofc less if you buy goods and participate in the tournaments, but still that's at least a month worth of KP donated to one account. If someone saves you a month of playtime - he/she pushing your account. There are multiple ways to stop such pushing: tell that person to stop, because, you know, that might violate the rules, or give him/her some KPs back, or repay in goods (if you're a neighbor - with FS member that's just too cheesy, because it's much harder to control who can be your neighbor), or disconnect your AW from a road for some time (small price to pay to act in accordance with rules, hopefully you agree, lol).

Of course, this might be a solution to ban existing cheaters. Won't work for ones that will get familiar with such approach...they'll just create even more secondary accounts to donate 500 or, taking into account impudence of existing cheaters, 999 KPs.

All I can think of is to limit amount of KPs per day that can be donated to one account. This won't affect KP swap chains, because there are usually more than 2 players doing it, and if there are just two of you - you're going to get first chest anyway...so just dump rest KPs in your own AWs. This won't solve a problem, but will make lives of a-holes much, much harder - they'll have to create more accounts, they'll be much easier to identify (because these people want their ranking points fast, they won't wait weeks to dump KPs....they'll donate maximum amount whenever it's possible).... As for cheaters pushing tournaments with extra goods...just eliminate 0-1 star and cross-tier trades, that's it. Sure, they'll still have their "unfair" access to the goods (all 9), but hey, at least they won't be able to receive ten times more than they should.

 

[Pheryll]

Part of the problem with a player making multiple accounts solely for the purpose of self donating to their main accounts ancient wonders, is that nowhere in the actual game itself are the "game rules" listed. You must use the forums to find these things out and to be able to see any type of game rules.

So is the forum registration viewed as a more restricting contract? That is, if you have not signed the forum agreement needed to register, you can push all you want, but if you are a forum member you have effectively waived that right.

 

[Gath Of Baal]

So is the forum registration viewed as a more restricting contract? That is, if you have not signed the forum agreement needed to register, you can push all you want, but if you are a forum member you have effectively waived that right

No, that is not what I was saying.. I am in no way defending "pushing". The point I was trying to get across is that the game rules are only posted in these forums and not the game itself. Most people do not use the forums so how are they supposed to know that they are doing wrong in the first place if it is not posted in the game itself for every player to read.. If they post the game rules in game, then there is no doubt between right and wrong since it is clearly visible to every player.
Kinda like you enter a store with no shoes or shirt on and the store manager asks you to leave since its against store policy to be in the store with out shoes and shirt.. But no where on the store entrance is anything posted about no shoes no shirt no service.. You ask the manager about it and they tell you that the sign is hanging in the window of another one of their stores 25 miles down the road

 

[SoggyShorts]

Why does it matter if the player isn't affecting you, or anyone else

Like I said above:

Spoiler: it effects everyone

It absolutely effects all of us when players cheat. Not just the rankings which I don't care a whole lot about, but the game balance.
If this method of cheating goes unpunished, then more and more players will do it. Then how do the devs balance the difficulty in the game to keep it challenging? They make it harder, and that forces yet more players to make multi accounts just to progress "normally".
Just because this game doesn't have PvP doesn't mean that the actions of other players don't effect you.

It seems like at least someone at support doesn't approve, now we wait and see.


As to all of the above "how much is cheating?" I'm sure they can figure out an algorithm with a warning system.
My FS has a wonders program where we focus all of our extra KP into 2 wonders at a time. A quick look around though will show that all of the players participate heavily in tournaments, progress their cities, do daily visits, and get a turn at having their wonders up (based on KP donated)

A quick look at the player that prompted me to contact support and make this thread will show an entire FS of cities that have 100% identical layouts, and make virtually no progress, and donate 10-20 KP each per day into the same main account.

As to whether INNO will ban a big spender, in this case at least it 's irrelevant as the player is a free player. (level 2 MA/BH, no mag res/ws)


Please do not share private conversations from within support. - Synesthesia

 

[qaccy]

Yes, the updates have had a positive affect for me, however there are many players who quit or vowed never to spend money again until they "fixed" the battlesystem that was "broken" Overall what they have done has made it a better game for me, but not everyone, including some big spenders feel the same way.



The thing about any corporation is you "can't rob Peter to pay Paul"

Elvenar has to stand on it's own as a game. Inno is not going to pull income from FoE to support Elvenar. It may be the same company, but a differnt support team, different development team. You can't be a sustainable game if you are being supported by another game. If Elvenar is not making a profit, then Elvenar will cease to exist..

I was merely drawing a parallel. Neither of us have actual data, but I was stating that in FoE, Inno's more than willing to ban 'big spenders' if they break the rules, something you claimed they won't do. I merely took that knowledge and logically applied it to this game as well. As I said, they may be different teams, but it's still the same company. A grocery store isn't going to stock fresh produce but rotten meat just because they're different departments, are they?

 

[Thistleknot]

I played a game where people figured out how to automate the game, and the one guy made a business out of it and made enough money from selling game automation to send his kids to expensive private schools.

Some people will pay money for any cheat they can get. I don't understand the mentality. I want to enjoy the game, not find some automated device to play for me. And while the ranking system does add a competitive edge to this game, I don't see why it's that important to run multiple accounts just to try to be number one. Especially the extreme examples of people have 6 or more accounts. I barely have time to play one city. I could never manage six.

Also there is an inherent imbalance in the ranking system. If you spend money on the game, you are more likely to be able to get a higher score than someone that does not spend money on the game. Between buying expansions for more room and buildings that give you tons of population and/or culture, someone can build buildings that are worth lots of ranking points, such as the people that have 20 of each manufactory. There is no way I can complete evenly against that, but I understand it and it doesn't bother me. I not willing to spend that kind of money.

 

[DeletedUser7686]

I played a game where people figured out how to automate the game, and the one guy made a business out of it and made enough money from selling game automation to send his kids to expensive pirate schools.

Fixed that for you.