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Just wondering why we tolerate cheaters?!

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by ET-inf3rno, Jan 7, 2019.

  1. qaccy

    qaccy Well-Known Member

    Feb 3, 2016
    As I outlined, having more troops (or even way more troops) doesn't really allow you to do more. The amount of squads you have is irrelevant beyond the point where you have enough to accomplish what you want to accomplish, since you're limited to 5 squads per battle with size determined by the province you're in. My troop-producing wonders are at very modest levels but I'm still able to maintain enough troops to do all the fighting I'm interested in doing; having more would not really be that helpful to me. In addition, please remember my saying that bonuses do not matter for battles where you wouldn't be able to win anyway and are going to end up catering. An additional point is the reality that the gaps are much smaller than comparing maxed-out wonders to no wonders at all. How many serious tournament fighters are doing so with completely unboosted units?

    I wouldn't say I'm hard to impress, but I will say that I don't overinflate the value of AW bonuses. Take a closer look at something like the scrolls or magic dust tournaments, try fighting through them, and let me know how much you expect military bonuses would actually help there in overall tournament performance compared to what you achieve via catering.
    osideglen and JL7316 like this.
  2. JL7316

    JL7316 New Member

    Jun 12, 2017
    I'm far past the point of *ANY* AW helping me out in a fight. I have 12 level 31 armories with a maximum training size of 10,434. My max squad size is 3,390. All of my fighting AWs are in the mid range (level 8-12). Or what was mid-range pre-Amuni, anyway. Lol

    I get my a** handed to me in tournament, going through tens of thousands of troops to produce only 1,000-1,500 points. I'm facing 8 squads almost immediately in round 1, and I'm significantly outnumbered in squad size by round 3, so it's a toss-up how far I get. Forget about round 4, even on my boost weeks. I just do what I can for my FS by clearing trades so they can do more.

    I haven't been able to fight a province encounter in at least 8 months, maybe longer. The reason why? I have 597 provinces cleared. Here's what ONE encounter costs to cater in the 24th ring... 230K steel, 190K scrolls, 150K dust, and 3,100 orcs. I could fight instead, but I'm facing 25,000 Rigid Steinlings, 33,000 Ghastly Banshees, and 150,000 Feral Wild Archers. With a squad size of 3,390 vs. 49,748 for the enemies, not gonna happen, no matter if I had my Sanctuary maxed at level 30. :D

    That's why you rarely see Top 10 players posting high scores in Tournament. It's much easier for lower level players to post those big scores, especially if they haven't taken all the squad size upgrades in the tech tree. The only time you're going to see someone in the Top 10 post a big Tournament score is if they're pushing goods to cater all of their unlocked provinces. That's how someone got 9,252 points a couple weeks ago despite having a similar fighting handicap. ;)
    Andrew420 and osideglen like this.
  3. Mykan

    Mykan Well-Known Member

    Jul 14, 2016
    You may find that is specific to worlds. Top tournament scores from 2 worlds I play vary from 3k-6k typically and the bulk of the people getting those do it quite regularly. I don't have the time to check peoples towns for pushing but I am fairly confident most aren't although I know of at least 1 exception. This current tournament alone has people with 2k+ scores already and you need to be almost 1500+ to be in the top 20 after 2 rounds.

    You don't need pushing to get scores like that. It takes knowledge and preparation, especially to do it week in and week out. A lot of the people I know who post big scores do it on the backs of their military not their goods.

    Other than pushing goods which works from large to small towns, the other major push is KP from small to big towns providing a crazy amount of wonder levels. With the above comments from Soggy and Qaccy this can have an impact but the amount of that is debatable and not all of those people necessarily do tournaments all the time, I assume they just like maxed wonders.
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019
  4. mucksterme

    mucksterme Well-Known Member

    Jan 8, 2017

    AW shopping

    When I was in Sorcs I looked around for people who had the Maze or Abbey. If they were working on improving them I'd donate to get shards. Then, by the time I got to the Maze/Abbey research I had enough shards to build them. With help from the several AWs I had upgraded to a five level so I could break shards leveling them too.

    ^ this
    As I was reading all the "they are obviously cheating" comments I was remember my old Halo ( original edition) days. The friend who taught me the game was constantly being kicked off servers for botting. When actually he was just an amazing player. He practiced for hours and hours to perfect his game. But a lot of people who went up against him thought " no way someone can be that much better than me without cheating."
    SherG26, Andrew420, osideglen and 3 others like this.
  5. SoggyShorts

    SoggyShorts Well-Known Member

    Jun 9, 2016
    That makes no sense. If having more troops doesn't allow you to do more, why do you have a level 29 needles? Shouldn't you just get rid of it?
    Test it out for 1 week: only train troops for 12h a day instead of 24, and see if you get the same results.
    There are loads of battles that I have lost while killing 90% of the enemy units. If I had increased my unit health from +13.5% to +30% I may have won. If I also increased my damage from +18% to +40% I would have won for sure.
    "normal" might be having all military wonders around level 11 for a fairly hardcore legit player. Less than half power for sure.

    @Pheryll has a good way of looking at it: Max wonders decrease the difficulty by a couple of stars, and that does make a difference.
    osideglen and JL7316 like this.
  6. JL7316

    JL7316 New Member

    Jun 12, 2017
    Just to be clear, this isn't guessing. I have fully documented the cheating over the last year and have account names, statistics, and screen shots. The graph I posted of ranking points over the last year is unequivocal proof.

    To Mykan's point, maybe the Tournament results being skewed towards pushers are world specific, but I can absolutely vouch for the fact that the accounts posting the majority of the top Tournament scores on Sinya Arda are in fact pushers or push accounts. I'll be more than happy to list the top 50 from the final results for the current Tournament and identify each and every pusher and push account.
    osideglen and alainemk like this.
  7. mucksterme

    mucksterme Well-Known Member

    Jan 8, 2017
    So, the more active players in my FS were talking about picking a week and doing a big tourny push one week.
    It'll probably be the next steel tourny. Most of my people bribe their way through provinces and need time to stockpile goods.

    Right now I have four health boosters and a Archer damage booster and Wizard damage booster.
    Hopefully I'll get more in the meantime but I swear that crafting shop knows what I want and is stingy with it.
    But anyway
    I'll go into the tourny as loaded for combat as possible and will let you folks know the results.
    One goal I have set is to go through all the provinces, at least in the first round.
    I haven't gone past twenty in at least a year.

    I'm guessing the mods would frown on you doing that here.
    osideglen and shimmerfly like this.
  8. Enevhar Aldarion

    Enevhar Aldarion Well-Known Member

    Nov 29, 2016
    @mucksterme My fellowship is planning on doing that with the Planks tournament because it is supposedly the easiest one. With the amount of goods and troops I have stockpiled, I should clear somewhere at least 4k points. I also have a couple of those health-boosting buildings, but I have almost none of the military AWs, so I will probably negotiate more than I fight. I, and probably four or five others, will be getting between 4k and 5k points each, maybe even higher, so don't anyone report us for cheating! lol

    Oh, and a side note in general on the topic title. WE do not tolerate cheating, but WE cannot do anything about it. INNO tolerates the cheating, but they never seem to do anything about it, unless they do account bans that we know nothing about.
    JL7316, osideglen, alainemk and 2 others like this.
  9. Ashrem

    Ashrem Well-Known Member

    Nov 6, 2016
    I've gotten quite a few 1 KP donations from neighbors who I helped every day but were too small to have discovered me so they could return the help.

    But losing that would still be a small price to pay for some stability.
  10. wtfever

    wtfever Well-Known Member

    Jun 8, 2016
    When one of my neighbors in a smaller city puts 1KP in my Wonders I always stop the KP trade to make sure they get at least the lowest chest. Just a part of being a good neighbor. But if you're some rando map-surfing you can expect to be knocked off the rewards by my FS-mates.
  11. Deborah M

    Deborah M Well-Known Member

    Jan 29, 2018
    Thank you :) I have slacked off a bit but I think I'm still #9 on Elcysandir. My AW are 44,000 ranking points even though I have all of the AW. I can say that a player who used to comment on the pushing subject did make me aware of a few serious pushers but I just shake my head and play my game. I've never really focused on ranking for the sake of ranking. I do think I owe it to my FS to not slide a whole lot but other than that I'm not willing to spend more $$ just for something that really does not have any effect on my game.

    On the subject of IP addresses I have to object. My husband plays this some so....
  12. SoggyShorts

    SoggyShorts Well-Known Member

    Jun 9, 2016
    That's really not a problem, the wife and I always co-op and many games have IP restrictions with the ability to lift them when you ask support.:)
    osideglen and Andrew420 like this.
  13. mucksterme

    mucksterme Well-Known Member

    Jan 8, 2017
    But this is people talking IP ban not a block on extra accounts.
    If you and your wife were all of a sudden banned for cheating (because you share an address) it would be much harder to get back.
    osideglen likes this.
  14. Andrew420

    Andrew420 Well-Known Member

    Apr 19, 2015
    I doubt that would happen the Soggy one is to efficient to let something like that happen
    Like @SoggyShorts mentioned that if you do want to play from the same IP all you do is ask permission
    Players on FoE ask and are granted permission to play from same address all the time
    If you don't get permission then you will be subject to a ban
    What you won't be able to do is donate points to each others buildings
    Thats what we are talking about restricting players from donating KPs to their AWs from dummy accounts
    Not stopping honest players from playing the game together
    This hits the nail on the head and is the reason I have suspected all along why they allow (yes they know its going on) pushing
    SoggyShorts, osideglen and Tedious like this.
  15. Hedon

    Hedon Member

    Jul 15, 2016
    "The answer to all of your questions is MONEY" - Don Ohlmeyer

    Most pushers have to be buying diamonds as well, otherwise it'd been stopped ages ago (the point has been made a few times that you can give KP to non-FS non-neighbors but not buffs) and they (Inno) are gripping hard that if they stop pushing, they stop banking.
    osideglen and JL7316 like this.
  16. JL7316

    JL7316 New Member

    Jun 12, 2017
    Perhaps, but if they blocked the ability to push forward one account from many others, people who want the ranking points would spend MORE money... everything gets steadily more expensive as you go on, so selling a few level 1-2 magical residences for a push farm is nothing compared to someone upgrading 50 or more to level 13.

    Regardless, they're obviously not going to change anything. Sure, anyone with Day 2 SQL skills could easily write a query to find all of the push accounts on all of the worlds... but what would it accomplish? The damage is already done. I think it's their lack of integrity that I object to most.
    alainemk and osideglen like this.
  17. mikeledo

    mikeledo Member

    Mar 6, 2017
    When you agree to play, the blurb claims INNO tracks cookies. They also track keystrokes. They know every push city in every realm and I have discovered it is a waste of time to point them out. They won't do anything and yes they know they are there. I don't think it is a German privacy law issue as much as a money issue. The IT industry has a fairly decent turnover rate and it is possible future management might view cheating at their game, laughing in their face, differently. After INNO introduces its final chapter (not sure if there will be a final one) they can then be assured that the top abusers have spent all their diamonds and it would to INNO"s advantage to clear them off the boards so new folks can occupy the top spots, spurring some honest competition. Some folks might buy diamonds now, knowing it is an honest game. Does anyone know of any player who is in the number one spot (or 2 for that matter) that doesn't show signs of major pushing?
    JL7316 and osideglen like this.
  18. Deawyne

    Deawyne Well-Known Member

    Jun 28, 2016
    There are various ways a game can be designed to keep this from blatant abuse. A pay to win game, such as this, is only asking for exploits and making non-paying members disgruntled.
    osideglen likes this.
  19. Ashrem

    Ashrem Well-Known Member

    Nov 6, 2016
    I have discovered that it doesn't matter how pointless it seems, people will keep complaining about things about which they can't do anything. ;)
  20. Risen Malchiah

    Risen Malchiah Well-Known Member

    Apr 12, 2017
    I have more than 1 city on the same server but I'm proud to say that I don't push. And on the rare occasion I trade with myself, I make sure they're even trades to not raise any red flags.

    I simply like knowing my server well and have made friendships across multiple fellowships. I will msg players who did well in FA or tournaments to congratulate them and ask advice. Also, sometimes I keep in touch with players from my previous fellowships and having cities in the same world means I can occasionally visit them or help run our sister fellowship without having to leave my main fellowship.

    As others have noted, simply stopping KP donations for people who aren't in the same fellowship or discovered area would solve 90% of the pushing. Sure, someone could swap guilds to make donations but that would be a hassle to do consistently. Or they could fill up their fellowship with their own alts, but that also means they'd have to do more of the tournament themselves. :)