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    Your Elvenar Team

Make optional research not require guest race goods

michmarc

Well-Known Member
Summary: Optional research (city expansions and squad size research) should not require guest race goods to complete.

Details: The upcoming tournament changes suggest that bypassing optional squad size researches will no longer be a penalty in tournaments and they already aren't a penalty in the spire. They clearly help both province fights and the powers of several Ancient Wonders. Players that have routinely skipped optional SS upgrades may now want to go back and research them.

However, seven of those upgrades require guest race goods:
  • #22 (Faeries): 80 Ambrosia
  • #25 (Orcs): 200 Shrooms of Wisdom
  • #26 (Orcs): 1250 Loot
  • #32 (Sorcerers and Dragons): 60 Alchemy Necromancers
  • #39 (Halflings): 1100 Savvy Soup
  • #42 (Elementals): 1100 Essence
  • #47 (Amuni): 140k Grave Goods, 30k Traps
Optional city expansion may also require guest race goods.

For players past those chapters, this means rebuilding the portals and the production buildings. (It has been pointed out that Portal Profits only give goods for the current chapter so they cannot be used to avoid production.) This is a long and costly process.

I suggest that the research cost for these research be changed to only require goods relevant to all chapters to make it reasonable if a player wants to research that tech after the chapter has ended.

Benefits / Pros: Players that skip that research can go back and get it without having to build an expensive and time/space costly set of production buildings.

Downsides / Cons: Research is cheaper? This could be compensated by shuffling costs around so that guest race goods are increased on other (required) research in the chapter.

Miscellaneous: I believe this was done recently for chapter 16 researches -- it should be done for all.
 

Pheryll

Well-Known Member
For players past those chapters, this means rebuilding the portals and the production buildings. (It has been pointed out that Portal Profits only give goods for the current chapter so they cannot be used to avoid production.) This is a long and costly process.
The total guest race goods needed for the optional squad size researches each chapter does not exceed the level 4 portal maximum capacity. Many players have skipped the optional squad size technologies and have built up enough guest race goods that they can automatically fulfill all these technologies.

I am not sure that there are any pros to the idea, as it almost sounds like you want the technology given to you for free for not investing the amounts of materials the technology requires. People see the requirements for the technology as they pass through the chapters, and not saving up enough in case the tournament system changes puts them into a predicament that they could have easily avoided.
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
The total guest race goods needed for the optional squad size researches each chapter does not exceed the level 4 portal maximum capacity. Many players have skipped the optional squad size technologies and have built up enough guest race goods that they can automatically fulfill all these technologies.

I am not sure that there are any pros to the idea, as it almost sounds like you want the technology given to you for free for not investing the amounts of materials the technology requires. People see the requirements for the technology as they pass through the chapters, and not saving up enough in case the tournament system changes puts them into a predicament that they could have easily avoided.
Many ain't all, it turs out I did for all except for 1 that I seemed to have forgotten, should I redo the entire race now because of a a gamechange?
I will if I need to (if I still play at that time) but I can also understand that some who are less experienced and were advised to skip them by players like you and me, did not think of preparing it and just skipped it, should they now revisit like 6-7 chapters?

I think it would be a good idea to at least temporarily remove those goods from those researches to give everyone at least the opportunity to skip them, or to allow a temporary rule that untill xxxx you can ask support to finish those researches for you if you skipped those and research the next chapter before it came to live.
 

Pheryll

Well-Known Member
Many ain't all, it turs out I did for all except for 1 that I seemed to have forgotten, should I redo the entire race now because of a a gamechange?
The difference between not taking any squad size and taking them all has less meaning now for tournaments. It only impacts AW troop production and troop instants. As @michmarc has mentioned, the developers have already removed guest race goods from the city expansions of chapter 16. If they wish to apply this to the squad size for tournaments, they probably already have a plan to do so. If they have instead decided against it, then this suggestion would likely be seen as just a complaint.
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Well-Known Member
The first one is the only real issue if they change the goods needed. The orc ones can be changed to needing orcs. The sorcerer one can be changed to needing mana. The halfling one can be changed to needing mana or seeds. And the rest can be changed to needing sentient goods, mana, or seeds.
 
I would actually benefit from this (or the version proposed above by Enevhar Aldarion) assuming the tourney changes are going to happen the way described. However, I don't feel too much urgency in going back and doing all optional SS research as quickly as possible. If I end up needing to make some traps and grave goods when in between chapters, so be it. That being said, I will probably cast a self-serving 'yes' vote to this if it comes to vote lol
 

Henroo

Well-Known Member
The total guest race goods needed for the optional squad size researches each chapter does not exceed the level 4 portal maximum capacity. Many players have skipped the optional squad size technologies and have built up enough guest race goods that they can automatically fulfill all these technologies.

I am not sure that there are any pros to the idea, as it almost sounds like you want the technology given to you for free for not investing the amounts of materials the technology requires. People see the requirements for the technology as they pass through the chapters, and not saving up enough in case the tournament system changes puts them into a predicament that they could have easily avoided.
I am not Michmarc, but I think I understand what he was saying. His point seems to be that many of us have skipped optional squad size increases in order to keep tournament costs down. Now there is a change in the works which makes this previously sound strategy obsolete. And it now might become worthwhile to go back and research optional squad size increases you had intentionally skipped. The potential issue is: what if that tech requires resources you can no longer make? For example, if you skipped one in Dwarves that needs granite. And now you are in a later chapter and can no longer make granite. There is no way to pick up this tech without rebuilding a Dwarven portal and rebuilding granite mines. I don't think he is asking for something for free, but I do think he is pointing out a valid potential future issue. What I think would be the best solution would be to update older techs you skipped to whatever the current guest races goods are that you are currently on. So for example if you skipped a squad size in Dwarves and are now in Fairies, then the costs for that tech are no longer paid in granite/copper. It is now paid in Ambrosia/Night Essence. So on and so forth for other chapters, depending on where you are at.
 

michmarc

Well-Known Member
Exactly.

Substituting future guest goods is an interesting idea @Henroo that I hadn't thought of before, although figuring out what the right amounts and types of each would be could be a lot of developer work. (Especially if the current chapter has more or fewer goods.)

Note that the majority of optional updates already do not require guest goods. For example, SS17 is in the heart of the Dwarves chapter (after you've built the mines) yet it only requires coins, crystal, and gems. It's only those seven (and some potential optional city expansions which I can't see because I didn't skip them) that use guest goods.
 

Ashrem

Well-Known Member
I support the idea. Players made a decision at a time when there was a meaningful choice for that decision. Now the Rules are being changed well into the game and players who did not take optional Squad Sizes no longer receive any benefit for penalty they once accepted.

The whole concept of "optional" techs is pretty much ridiculous if there is no benefit to declining the option. Players penalized by a change to the game should be able to get back on an even footing without further penalty in the form of having to needlessly redo past guest races.
 

Risen Malchiah

Well-Known Member
I made sure to save up enough settlement resource in each chapter with the hopes that one day the squad size upgrades might actually be useful. But I fully realize the majority of players probably did not. I don't have a problem with changing these even though I have the resources to unlock them and any change would likely cost me more. If it benefits more people, I'm ok with it.

I'm still holding out hope that squad size would still be useful in tournaments. It seems to me that the upcoming beta changes are really misguided. A better formula might be tourneys based on the mandatory squad sizes only, thus making optional squad sizes a bonus that actually helps players. But that's of course a discussion for another thread.
 

Pheryll

Well-Known Member
I support the idea. Players made a decision at a time when there was a meaningful choice for that decision. Now the Rules are being changed well into the game and players who did not take optional Squad Sizes no longer receive any benefit for penalty they once accepted.

The whole concept of "optional" techs is pretty much ridiculous if there is no benefit to declining the option. Players penalized by a change to the game should be able to get back on an even footing without further penalty in the form of having to needlessly redo past guest races.
I am not sure that this is a penalty more than it being a bonus offered. If you do not take the optional squad size techs, your training speed is in no way impaired, nor is your tournament investment more costly. By taking these technologies, you receive more troops from your ancient wonders and your troop instants are capable of providing more troops.

There are many accounts that took the optional squad size techs before the tournament was balanced on your squad size, and they did take a penalty for it. Their catering costs were increased, the amount of troops they had to expend for the same performance increased, and they had no way of unresearching the technology once the new system arrived. And unlike those that skipped the technology, they had to pay for it, in many cases with guest race goods.

Characterizing these squad size techs as "optional" was what the player base did. The Elvenar team did not initially characterize them this way. (I understand there are videos where the team is asked about optional squad size techs and replies with the same jargon). In the video for this new tournament system, they explicitly said that they were countering the skipping of squad size technologies which was being used to improve tournament performance. They were also countering the large number of tournament provinces taken (they gave unreasonably high numbers like 100), so that players would be limited in how far they could easily achieve.

As far as how easy it is to obtain these optional squad size technologies, all except the Amuni one require no higher than a level 2 portal. Many people actually have enough guest race goods left over to fulfill quite a few of them, even if they were not intentionally saving up. For the fairy one, it is possible that a person may have saved up, and had plenty at the end of the chapter, but later spent the guest race goods on roads. But for the most part, it does not look like it is that hard to fulfill the technology requirement, with the exception of the Amuni squad size which does require a level 4 portal.
 

Ashrem

Well-Known Member
I am not sure that this is a penalty more than it being a bonus offered
Every explored province is more expensive for someone with smaller squad sizes.

Characterizing these squad size techs as "optional" was what the player base did.
Do you have a reference for that? The first use of optional technology was by forum mods in release notes on both Live and Beta in 2016 when they announced switching one optional squad size tech for another.
 
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Pheryll

Well-Known Member
Every explored province is more expensive for someone with smaller squad sizes.
The catering is not more expensive, and the general advice given to tournament players was to skip the technologies, because they could get better results by catering or fighting the provinces while using the smaller squad size advantage in tournaments. Skipping was the smarter thing to do. And many times the early advise insisted that players also reserve enough guest race goods to research these technologies should the tournament situation change.

Do you have a reference for that? The first use of optional technology was by forum mods in release notes on both Live and Beta in 2016 when they announced switching one optional squad size tech for another.
I assume you are referring to this statement from the 1.14 version (September 2016):
Quest 'Wormlings Lands' is no longer a storyline but rather a normal declinable quest, as it requires an optional technology to be researched to complete

The term optional was used by the community well before this:
You have to pursue all the branches eventually, except little offshoots for city expansions which are optional. Jan 2016

I am not sure how much weight should be placed on patch 1.14. The decision not to have storyline quests advise you to pursue techs that didn't help you progress in the chapter, may not be related to the notion that skipping squad size techs gave you a tournament advantage should you pursue this option.
 

Ashrem

Well-Known Member
I assume you are referring to this statement from the 1.14 version (September 2016)
you assume incorrectly. I was referring to 1.12, which specifically refers to switching two sqad size techs between optional and required on multiple different servers by multiple different mods in an official communication.

One or two people using the word optional does not reach the bar of the community characterizing them as such being the reason the developers started doing so. And even had that been the reason, the fact remains they have been officially referring to them as optional for at least four years on all the English speaking servers.
Their catering costs were increased, the amount of troops they had to expend for the same performance increased,
The catering is not more expensive,
which is it? Or does it change depending on what point you wish to make?

I'm under the impression that both catering and figuring are based on the cost of supporting, widget is factored to include your squad size.
You're saying that people who wish to fight the provinces are irrelevant, because the difficulty of fighting isn't a cost to us for the rest of the game?
 
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ajqtrz

Well-Known Member
The problem is fairly narrow and probably effects even fewer than you might expect. As has been noted, some players may have enough of the needed resources still in their inventory and thus are able to do the missed SS researches without any hassle. Other players may not have skipped many and the ones they did may not be important enough to them to go back. So it's a question of do those players who skipped the SS researches based upon the structure of the game before the tournament changes and want to go back. Do they deserve some kind of adjustment in how they can go back and get those researches done, and if so, what kind of "accommodations" can be made that are fair to everyone.

I think they do. A game that changes the rules in "mid-stream" is not "fair" to the players. It's like in any game, if you make a change you have to do it before the game begins. So what's the solution?

As pointed out, it's the chapter resources needed to do the research that are needed. The simplest solution would be, I think, to just go back and any player who has skipped a SS research should just be given the chapter goods needed for the SS research provided they are already in the next chapter. It's my believe that had the game not penalized them for doing the research when it came up, that they would have done it. Thus, they would have "paid" for it then. The extra cost of going back and paying for it now by building whatever they need to make the resources, is more costly to them than the original so it's only fair that the devs "eat" that cost. The easiest way to do that is to have a particular date at which, if you skipped the SS research in previous chapters, you are given enough of those visiting race resources to build the SS should you desire to do so. It's a one and done solution.

The cons are that, of course, those of us who did not skip the SS had to pay for it by generating the needed resources. We lose nothing if the guest race resources are given to the players for the SS researches they skipped. So it really isn't all that unfair, I think.

And of course, by not doing the SS researches the players who didn't did gain in lower cost tournaments. Thus, they did benefit. This could be seen as a "payment" they received for skipping the SS researches, and, in a way, it is. But does what they benefited justify making them pay more now to go back? I think not. They had no idea that the devs would change things so they are, in my opinion, just lucky. Luck is part of the game.

In the end no real change need be made except to just go back and give the guest race resources for any skipped SS research except for the current chapter.

That's my take, anyway, and it can be done pretty easily without a lot of coding or changes to the actual game.

AJ
 

Ashrem

Well-Known Member
it can be done pretty easily without a lot of coding or changes to the actual game.
It's a lot of manual futzing though, even if it is only a few people, with no real guarantee of results, across a couple of dozen servers.
  • Do they do it automatically for all of them, in which case it is being manually adjusted for a bunch of people who aren't playing?
  • Do they ignore those people and deal with them if they return?
  • Are they going to send each of those people a message, indicating they've done it? If not, (or even if they do and it doesn't get looked at) what if someone who isn't on the forums gets a manual adjustment and then spends them on extra roads without realizing they got it?
  • What about people in the middle of the chapter, but past that tech? Just let them do it? Offer an adjustment that they may not take because they don't know it has stopped making a difference in tournaments but is still penalizing them in exploration so it makes the rest of the chapter easier until six months from now when they find out about the changes and are right back where they started?
Making the techs use goods that anyone can generate, even if the cost is fairly high, is a single database adjustment for all servers that never has to be touched again.
 

Ed1960

Well-Known Member
Just a point to make it clear I looked back and can complete1of3 of the Optional SSU that I skipped on 1 city and 0of4 on another? so yeah I agree fully
 

Xelenia

Senior Forum Moderator
Elvenar Team
As an outsider here, someone who will not take part in the voting process but someone who has grown accustomed to the developers thinking...I am not exactly sure how you are planning on convincing the developers to change a research requirement. Some of these requirements have been in place for months, if not years, and you had the choice to accomplish them. For individuals who chose to skip optional research because they chose to listen to "more experienced" players made a choice with their decisions.

Lately, I am noticing a lot of ideas being presented here because many of you are wanting to personalize the game to your playing style. I will hate for the developers to begin mentally brushing aside ideas coming at their desks (from THIS server) disguised as personal, or to put it simply, make individuals gameplay easier for them so they can begin to enjoy their personalized game that is made so millions can play it.

I am now reaching a point where I am deciding on completely putting a stop to ideas that serve no purpose, enhance the game in any shape or form, other than to make selective groups or individuals gameplay easy because they are not happy with the choices presented to them and simply wants a personalized the game to play. I realize I have opened a passageway here, but when I start to see that people are wasting time with trivial matters, I have to begin reconsidering my approach even if that means extra work on me. I would hate to become as strict as the moderators on the beta server, but you all have to play your part here as well.

This is a game to play. Why did you not strategize in the event the developers choose to pull another rabbit out of their hat, and strategically prepare yourself for when that optional research becomes mandatory or necessary?
 
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Darielle

Well-Known Member
Many players have skipped the optional squad size technologies and have built up enough guest race goods that they can automatically fulfill all these technologies.
I doubt that most players left early chapters with enough goods to go back and complete the techs that we were told would hurt us if we completed them. Elvenar/Inno never corrected that view, because until now, it was true. I understand the Original poster's dilemma completely, and think it is unfair to those who have skipped techs to have to build every portal again (even if they do have enough portal profits to complete it without further ado.) If Inno wants to now change the rules on everything that they have created, they ought to make provisions for those players who played by THEIR rules in the past, foregoing techs because that's how the game was designed. It is not the problem of the players, and they should not have to suffer for it.
 

Darielle

Well-Known Member
This is a game to play. Why did you not strategize in the event the developers choose to pull another rabbit out of their hat, and strategically prepare yourself for when that optional research becomes mandatory or necessary?
So, we're supposed to be mind readers and anticipate everything that Inno may dream up in the future? That's how you see it? I'm stunned, quite honestly, by that view.