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    Your Elvenar Team

Need help with basics

Strong verse only means those units have some sort of advantage over the other unit in terms of better offense, defensive or both. learning unit type verse unit type is the basics. Understanding those advantages is another layer of complexity, sometimes your unit is a glass cannon and knowing that and how to use that takes experience.

There are:
  • Squad size comparison
  • unit type
  • unit strength weaknesses
  • research technology - 1,2 or 3 star units
  • unit stats - lots of these and they all have an impact especially movement, range and initiative
  • Different units of the same type - which is specialised against what
  • Wonders and temporary boost buildings
  • ranged verse melee
All of this comes into play but trying to understand that too fast is like trying to run a marathon when your still learning how to stand up and walk.
So you have unit type, strength weaknesses, ranged vs melee and what is specialized against what- that's what the pentagon tells me, right? I followed that the forum guide thingy, and the gems page for those things. To the letter... chose a unit strong vs BOTH units the enemy had, that were both weak vs the type I chose.

I forget squad size but they were really close, and I think favored me - It was a second province, 0 star, battle.

What IS "intiative"?! I did a search on ALL FOUR pages of the guide thread and it never shows up in any of it. I don't know how to factor that in. And doesn't speed and range have to do with what is strong vs what?! I mean, a slow close unit would be owned by a fast long distance one- therefore strong vs slow close ones. Isn't that what the pentagon is telling us?! You know, "this unit with these stats is stronger than that unit with those stats, but weak vs these with their stats".

Cuz if it's not, how do you use it?! Cuz like if it's saying X is strong vs Y, but Y will always kill X before it can attack Y to be stronger- is it REALLY stronger?! And if not, how can you look at them and know that before you fight cuz it won't tell you that- just the strong/weak vs - which you seem to imply can be wrong... or ignored cuz of stats of the units that make them better or worse against others... despite or aside from strong/weak vs (which again, what does that even matter anymore if that's how it works?)
 

Kekune

Well-Known Member
When something is complicated, the basics don't always give you the answer. There are exceptions to every rule. It doesn't mean the rule is wrong, only that it takes practice and experience to know when to apply it.

There are a lot of "rules" that govern combat. The pentagon is a starting point, but until you've mastered all the rules there will always be fights that don't make sense because you didn't understand how ALL the rules overlapped.

Let's try an (awkward) analogy. People have been learning for a long time how to predict the weather. It was probably pretty cool when we figured out that pressure changes could tell us a storm was coming. But a barometer isn't particularly specific, as far as prediction goes. You might see that the pressure is changing, but then what? A thunderstorm? A hurricane? A tornado?

Knowing what's coming requires more than one type of information. The more you know about the local weather patterns, the season, and god knows what else, the better you'll be able to predict any given outcome. Today, there are complicated computer models that can predict path of a hurricane a week before it arrives. That's waaay more information than a barometer gives... but those models are still based on knowing the pressure of the storm. They rely on the basics, even though they've grown beyond them.

Using rules like "Cerberus is strong against mages" is relying on your barometer. They're useful rules, but they're not all the information. You can still get hit with a tornado out of the blue if you don't know how to watch for one. Until you predict - and lose - enough fights to develop your own mental "weather models" you'll still have those surprises.

And if you're fighting only on mobile using autofight, then you're losing out on watching the actual fight. That's useful information and not having it puts you at an inherent disadvantage. You can correct for most of it with practice, but it's a lot harder to understand when you're discussing it abstractly like this. Things like initiative and retaliation are much more real when you watch them unfold.
 

Fayeanne

Well-Known Member
Honestly, I'm wondering the same thing you are. That last image you posted (with all the Cerberuses) really looks like it should have been a victory.

"Initiative" is a stat on your units (the game shows it on the blue "i" info card). It determines turn order. So each round, units with higher initiative get to move before those with lower initiative.

If you are on a browser, you can load up a manual battle and then click the "Finish battle automatically" button (in the lower left) and watch the AI and see what it does. This may give you some clues as to why you are losing. For example, if it turns out that terrain is the issue, you will definitely see it by doing this.
 
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Mykan

Well-Known Member
Honestly, I'm wondering the same thing you are. That last image you posted (with all the Cerebuses) really looks like it should have been a victory.

"Initiative" is a stat on your units (the game shows it on the blue "i" info card). It determines turn order. So each round, units with higher initiative get to move before those with lower initiative.

If you are on a browser, you can load up a manual battle and then click the "Finish battle automatically" button (in the lower left) and watch the AI and see what it does. This may give you some clues as to why you are losing. For example, if it turns out that terrain is the issue, you will definitely see it by doing this.

Because cerberus aren't as strong against archers as one might think, they are more like a glass cannon. Which makes them more susceptible to terrain. If that was a flat map the cerbs should have won. Because they lost one could guess the enemy got at least 1 if not 2 rounds off before they closed in. Plus the abbot is making their attacks weaker. Sword dancers (or better yet drone riders, light range specialist) have defense against archers and are able to withstand the attack for longer. Still doesn't mean they would have won because again map can come into play. With that many light range either drone rider or heavy range are your better option, ranged units are less susceptible to terrain as they shoot over it and invariably are in range if the enemy is attacking them.

Initiative (adding complexity) also is critical in terms of knowing which units get targeted. In that cerb fight putting in one archer might have made the difference as high initiative units draw enemy fire, which is why archers and mages tend to die a lot when mixed with lower initiative troops. While I haven't done a manual fight for a long time, it is also possible the AI had the cerbs targeting the archers and ignoring the abbot because of initiative. Sometimes the AI just beats you with its lunacy, its why some people prefer to manual fight.
 
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Ashrem

Well-Known Member
I tried that in a tourney... using unit that are supposed to be strong vs and still lost, bad. Still can't figure out how to win these stupid things. LOL
And if light melee is "that bad"- how are they strong against ANYTHING AT ALL?! Why are they even there!? And why does the game (and the wiki) tell us they aren't, that they like are good vs some units if they just suck and don't actually do what the game and wiki tell us they are supposed to?! It's stuff like that that confuses me so bad.
Combat is not straight forward, and I don't think it should be, because if it were they might was well just spin a wheel.

The difficulty with light melee comes in capabilites. they are not only slower than many of their favourite oponents, but also lack their range. Anything with range can attack without risking strikeback (attack of opportunity for d&D fans). Even if they have the initiative, they can't hit on their first action, because they can't get across the field quickly enough. if you can counter that, then you have a chance with them. If you have some unleashed unit buildings, or a Dwarven Armour or a levelled Martial monastery, the extra hit points allow them to survive the fist volley and be crucially effective in the second round. If I don't have one of those boost buildings, I almost never use my light melee for anything, the exception being that if you have Cerberus troops, they are able to move far enough to be quite devastating even on the first round. The most recent tournament I fought almost exclusively with Cerberus troups and two unleashed Unit buildings deployed, which gave them 50% extra hit points, and allowed them to survive to inflict grievous damage on the enemy.
 

Fayeanne

Well-Known Member
Because cerberus aren't as strong against archers as one might think, they are more like a glass cannon.
True enough, though I've thrown 5 Cerberuses at a mixed group of archers/mages before in auto-fight and had them come out on top. The main problem I tend to have with the dogs is they tend to do even more poorly against Heavy Ranged than pretty much everything else.

While I haven't done a manual fight for a long time, it is also possible the AI had the cerbs targeting the archers and ignoring the abbot because of initiative.
I hadn't considered that. You're right, the AI will go after higher initiative units first. I'm still thinking the terrain must have been really bad in that particular fight, though.
 

Ashrem

Well-Known Member
The main problem I tend to have with the dogs is they tend to do even more poorly against Heavy Ranged than pretty much everything else.
When I have to use a troop that is week against something, I try never to auto-fight unless there is only one of the enemy in question. Then it becomes a balancing act of whether I'm better off applying a debuff to as many enemies as I can, vs focusing my attack on a single enemy until it is either dead, or weak enough that the next time it attacks me my strike-back will finish it.
 
Because cerberus aren't as strong against archers as one might think, they are more like a glass cannon.
So when it says "best against light ranged and mages" it literally lies to us?! And the pentagon dealie ALSO shows they're strong vs both types. :/
THIS is why it's confusing. The Gems site literally said to use them. The pentagon says they are strong vs. This thread suggested them. The game info says they're best vs those two unit types.
Literally EVERYTHING I'VE READ suggests they are strong vs, best vs, and should be used... How the heck do I make sense "oh but they just lose anyway"?!
 
True enough, though I've thrown 5 Cerberuses at a mixed group of archers/mages before in auto-fight and had them come out on top. The main problem I tend to have with the dogs is they tend to do even more poorly against Heavy Ranged than pretty much everything else.



I hadn't considered that. You're right, the AI will go after higher initiative units first. I'm still thinking the terrain must have been really bad in that particular fight, though.
So are you saying the initiative is attack order, or who goes first? Is it both somehow? They choose who to attack priority based on that number somehow?

And... WHY ON EARTH does the game and pentagon say use Cerbs vs light range and mages when CLEARLY they get owned?!

Again... EVERYTHING says "mind the pentagon" and "mind the info the game tells you" - but BOTH OF THOSE you're saying here are ENTIRELY WRONG. Mages & Light Range are WEAK vs Cerbs but totally OWN THEM.

IDK how to even make sense of the combat system if it disregards it's OWN information and guides.
 
Combat is not straight forward, and I don't think it should be, because if it were they might was well just spin a wheel.
Honestly, IMHO, it IS a mess right now. If all the "strong vs/weak vs" and "best against" info the game and devs tells us is thrown out hte window for other things... then the combat system is built on something OTHER THAN what they tell us... and sometimes has random "you just lose" chance added (terrain, apparently just screws you despite having the best setup possible and when you should totally win). So it IS "just spin a wheel" right now...
 
If you are on a browser, you can load up a manual battle and then click the "Finish battle automatically" button (in the lower left) and watch the AI and see what it does. This may give you some clues as to why you are losing. For example, if it turns out that terrain is the issue, you will definitely see it by doing this.
I did that once, by accident... and it's super confusing. It moves troops up, then back... this way, then back that way... it's like they have to MOVE every turn and so it just moves them somewhere. And archers, IMHO, are god-like in that- cuz they mow all sorts of stuff down of mine... but mine didn't seem to do the same. They wanted to get SUPER CLOSE to attack. I don't know how to make sense of what it does, cuz it makes MY units act diff than their units, even if they're the same kind (per the pentagon dealie - like "range/melee/mage").
 
No, it just doesn't say what you think it says. The bet place to use them is against archers and mages, because they have an inherent bonus against those enemies. That doesn't mean that they are great, but it does mean if you are going to use them, that's the best place to use them.

Combat result is a mix of inputs, and the pentacle arrangement is a simplistic guide.

Initiative decides who goes first. The rudimentary rules the troops follow is approximately:

1) who can I reach
2) if I can reach more than one, which one will damage me first. (reducing the damage I will take on the next attack)
3) if I can't reach any, which move will put me closest to being in reach.
-) there appears to be a component of selecting injured enemies first (all else being equal), probably because the chance of preventing their next attack all together is greater.

Again, these are simplified. the code will include other factors, but that will tell you the enemy's most likely attack pattern.

Ok, wait... I am gonna need you to break that down and explain HOW that makes sense.
Pentagon says they are strong vs both types. The game "info" when you click the "i" for the Cerb LITERALLY SAYS "Best against" and lists those two units.

How is that telling me they are NOT good against those?! (Cuz, again, everything the game says, this page, Mykan's guide, and the Gems page says- ALL says to use them in that situation, which was a total crushing defeat. Where did I go wrong reading and following ALL of that?!)

And if "best place to use them" means they get destroyed... what DO you use them for?! Are they totally pointless units if the BEST CASE scenario is a losing battle?!
I know they lost, obviously... but I don't know WHY... and I can't figure out what to do if the advice from game info, these forums, Mykan & his guide, and gems is ALL telling me to do what I did. IDK how to fix that, how to make sense of that. I can't LEARN what to do if I can't understand WHY it's not working.
 
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If you rely on the game to do everything for you, then choosing according to the strong vs week pentacle gives you a small advantage over pure random. If you want more than a small advantage, you have to pursue advanced strategies. Getting a Martial Monastery (human=Sanctuary) down and spend a few months getting it to a high level will give you a significant boost in winnability. Crafting every martial boost building you can in the magic Academy and using them will help even more.
I am not relying on it to do _everything_ but it SHOULD at least be expected to follow its own rules. Strong vs should beat "weak vs" units. That's kinda the definition of "strong vs" and "weak vs". When it makes you LOSE despite THEY having the weak vs units, it's telling you that YOU can't win even with stronger units- and something's really wrong there.

And "advanced strategies" shouldn't come into play for the MOST BASIC combat rules to be applied. They should be for advanced things, mixed stuff, and the complicated HARDER fights... not the very bare minimum basics. Cuz that's kinda unfair. You can't LEARN by dropping into college level math without first having the basic math understood and working the way it's supposed to. This is like saying basic addition/subtraction & mulitiplication/division is set up, but ignored cuz you need to use calculus stuff to win. Well, that later stuff should be BUILT ON that basic stuff working- else there's no foundation. Right now, I don't see how the pentagon strong/weak stuff even matters or makes ANY effect at all- as Fayeanne said above- that battle SHOULD HAVE WORKED. How did they lose?! How did five units of Cerbs, strong vs BOTH of the unit types they oppose ("best against" them even), and only FOUR units... LOSE?! How did that happen!? How did the fundamentals NOT apply?! I can't do the advanced strategies until I make sense of how the BASIC system applies FIRST.

I am working on getting those wonders. The problem there is that the RUNES are hard to get. I have like 2 wonders in one of my cities, and like 3 in my other- aside from "instants/summons" ones. But the runes are super hard to get- and ppl tell me, doing better in the tourney will win those... but you need to be able to do the combat to get there.

So I am in a place where I can't do combat cuz I don't have runes to get the wonders to make combat viable? Yet, I have to do combat to get the runes... to make combat work... IDK how that is like gonna be fixed. LOL
 
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Ashrem

Well-Known Member
So when it says "best against light ranged and mages" it literally lies to us?!
No, it just doesn't say what you think it says. The bet place to use them is against archers and mages, because they have an inherent bonus against those enemies. That doesn't mean that they are great, but it does mean if you are going to use them, that's the best place to use them.

Combat result is a mix of inputs, and the pentacle arrangement is a simplistic guide.

Initiative decides who goes first. The rudimentary rules the troops follow is approximately:

1) who can I reach
2) if I can reach more than one, which one will damage me first. (reducing the damage I will take on the next attack)
3) if I can't reach any, which move will put me closest to being in reach.
-) there appears to be a component of selecting injured enemies first (all else being equal), probably because the chance of preventing their next attack all together is greater.

Again, these are simplified. the code will include other factors, but that will tell you the enemy's most likely attack pattern.

Honestly, IMHO, it IS a mess right now. If all the "strong vs/weak vs" and "best against" info the game and devs tells us is thrown out hte window for other things... then the combat system is built on something OTHER THAN what they tell us... and sometimes has random "you just lose" chance added (terrain, apparently just screws you despite having the best setup possible and when you should totally win). So it IS "just spin a wheel" right now...
If you rely on the game to do everything for you, then choosing according to the strong vs week pentacle gives you a small advantage over pure random. If you want more than a small advantage, you have to pursue advanced strategies. Getting a Martial Monastery (human=Sanctuary) down and spend a few months getting it to a high level will give you a significant boost in winnability. Crafting every martial boost building you can in the magic Academy and using them will help even more.
I did that once, by accident... and it's super confusing. It moves troops up, then back... this way, then back that way... it's like they have to MOVE every turn and so it just moves them somewhere. And archers, IMHO, are god-like in that- cuz they mow all sorts of stuff down of mine... but mine didn't seem to do the same. They wanted to get SUPER CLOSE to attack. I don't know how to make sense of what it does, cuz it makes MY units act diff than their units, even if they're the same kind (per the pentagon dealie - like "range/melee/mage").
The game aI is simplistic and pretty stupid. The only good thing about it is that it is just as stupid for your oponents as it is for you. That means if you learn to fight manually, you get a huge advanatge over the stupid ai.
Ok, wait... I am gonna need you to break that down and explain HOW that makes sense.
Pentagon says they are strong vs both types. The game "info" when you click the "i" for the Cerb LITERALLY SAYS "Best against" and lists those two units.

How is that telling me they are NOT good against those?!

And if "best place to use them" means they get destroyed... what DO you use them for?! Are they totally pointless units if the BEST CASE scenario is a losing battle?!
Because in English, the words "Good" and "best" are not directly related. At it's simplest, in world where every single fighter is blind, the best fighter might not be very good at all, but they are still the best. Also see: Glyphosate (RoundUp) is best used outside. It's still a carcinogenic, but it's less dangerous than using it inside.

Cerberus are "best used" against mages and archers, because they are even worse against the other troops. Until they get their extra stars, they are not very good at anything, except getting across the field quickly, but if you are going to use them, use them against:
1) only mages
2) mages with one or two archers
3) nothing else if there is more than one other thing and the enemy isn't at least 50% mages

To simplify that even further, unless the mages outnumber everything else on the enemy's side, don't use Cerberus.

I am working on getting those wonders. The problem there is that the RUNES are hard to get. I have like 2 wonders in one of my cities, and like 3 in my other- aside from "instants/summons" ones. But the runes are super hard to get- and ppl tell me, doing better in the tourney will win those... but you need to be able to do the combat to get there.

So I am in a place where I can't do combat cuz I don't have runes to get the wonders to make combat viable? Yet, I have to do combat to get the runes... to make combat work... IDK how that is like gonna be fixed. LOL
Look for active neighburs and FS members who have a Monastery/Sanctuary and ask them if they'd like to do a KP trade with you so you can be their top contributor and get some runes. That will get you further than your own FS exchange threads, which are dependent on the whims of other players.

--------- Aside:
Shortly I'm going to combine my last half-dozen posts to pare-down the length of this exchange, so some of my recent messages will vanish.
 
Look for active neighburs and FS members who have a Monastery/Sanctuary and ask them if they'd like to do a KP trade with you so you can be their top contributor and get some runes. That will get you further than your own FS exchange threads, which are dependent on the whims of other players.

--------- Aside:
Shortly I'm going to combine my last half-dozen posts to pare-down the length of this exchange, so some of my recent messages will vanish.
We do KP swaps in my main game's FS all the time. I do that often. :) I get a chest from them once in a while... mostly instants, spells, or the crest thingys you get doing the provinces on the map. IDK I get many runes from them.
 

Ashrem

Well-Known Member
We do KP swaps in my main game's FS all the time. I do that often. :) I get a chest from them once in a while... mostly instants, spells, or the crest thingys you get doing the provinces on the map. IDK I get many runes from them.
That's why I suggest focusing on one person's AW. If you can get the top spot on a single AW instead of 4th or 5th or 6th place in several, you get more rune shards. You might or might not get as many KP instants. if you can focus that in the right AW (Monastery/Sanctuary) then you can have some control and get more rune shards per week of the kind you need.
 
Because in English, the words "Good" and "best" are not directly related. At it's simplest, in world where every single fighter is blind, the best fighter might not be very good at all, but they are still the best. Also see: Glyphosate (RoundUp) is best used outside. It's still a carcinogenic, but it's less dangerous than using it inside.

Cerberus are "best used" against mages and archers, because they are even worse against the other troops. Until they get their extra stars, they are not very good at anything, except getting across the field quickly, but if you are going to use them, use them against:
1) only mages
2) mages with one or two archers
3) nothing else if there is more than one other thing and the enemy isn't at least 50% mages

To simplify that even further, unless the mages outnumber everything else on the enemy's side, don't use Cerberus.
So "best used against" doesn't mean they are good against? DESPITE the pentagon saying they're strong vs?! o.0

Also, for "stars"... mine were TWO star, only ONE unit of the enemy was. The rest were ONE star. So I DID have the advantage there, too.

But again, Mykan noted these should be used, the Gems page did, etc. I just don't know WHY... and why they lost if they shouldn't have.
 

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Ashrem

Well-Known Member
So "best used against" doesn't mean they are good against? DESPITE the pentagon saying they're strong vs?! o.0

Also, for "stars"... mine were TWO star, only ONE unit of the enemy was. The rest were ONE star. So I DID have the advantage there, too.

But again, Mykan noted these should be used, the Gems page did, etc. I just don't know WHY... and why they lost if they shouldn't have.
I don't know @Mykan's thinking, but I would never use Cerberus against 3 archers and a mage. As I said recently. I think unless a minimum of half the enemy are mages, Cerberus have no business on the field. I would use regular human/elven light melee or maybe Orc Strategist for that encounter.
 
I don't know @Mykan's thinking, but I would never use Cerberus against 3 archers and a mage. As I said recently. I think unless a minimum of half the enemy are mages, Cerberus have no business on the field. I would use regular human/elven light melee or maybe Orc Strategist for that encounter.
So you don't do this fight until you have Orc Strategist? I don't have those yet- a few techs away in the orc city, and the other is only in dwarves.

So is this really a matter of me just being waaaaaay too early to think about combat at all!?
 

Ashrem

Well-Known Member
So you don't do this fight until you have Orc Strategist? I don't have those yet- a few techs away in the orc city, and the other is only in dwarves.

So is this really a matter of me just being waaaaaay too early to think about combat at all!?
You should do fine in that combat using sword dancers or barbarians (depending if Elven or Human )


On a side note, if it is your Felyndral city you're working on, I would be happy to do a KP swap with you. My Martial Moonastery is at level 23 (requiring nearly 1200 KP for another level), so to guarantee the top chest, we'd probably have to trade about 300 to 400 points, but you'd get those back in the AW of your choice, and at the end you'd get 4 MM shards and 75KP worth of ancient wonder instants.