(New) Combat System from Seasoned Gamers Perspective

[DeletedUser861]

Note: This is my first Elvenar Forums post. I hope that the community is receptive to my at times blunt observations and ideas without any hard core trolling. My motives are pure; I simply would love to see Combat/Battle Meta changes as I am very passionate about combat.

I began to play Elvenar at launch. I got most of my buildings to level 15 many months ago and like many players, out of complete boredom quit playing. Recently out of curiosity I returned. I don't know what to think about this Ancient Wonders dealie, however Runeshards & a majority of the buildings associate with Runes are "Meh", okay at best; the Tournaments are a VERY costly & are non-rewarding IMHO.

I enjoy Elvenar; the collecting of resources and the creation of unique colorful buildings is addictive - not to mention all the fun non-stop clicking of my mouse & the support from my amazing Fellowship as well as over all Community - However then there is combat - no matter how you dice it Combat in Elvenar is the most Un-Dynamic boring crappola I have every experienced within a game...any type or style of game. This is one very good reason why so many left the game after just a couple/few months after game launch - not to mention the "One shot" early on imbalances within combat until you leveled up enough KP within the combat portion of the K-Tree and the reason still many players dread combat. Combat/Battling just simply put is not fun! Not interactive enough. Not thought provoking or dynamic enough.

The Hexagon grid system is just soooooo boring and uneventful.

I just got done watching the "Elvenar Battle Updates" Yahoo Vid. I am so confused...

Instead of making combat more of an interesting challenge, Devs are making it easier - WHAT???? *pulls out hair* Why give alignment? I mean alignment (good or bad) can work if there is an existing somewhat complex combat strategy system that compliments alignment but to add it just to make it easier for players who choose to not apply themselves? I guess its okay for early on when troops are weaker and players have limited type of units - but...okay..then. *pulls out another handful of hair*

Are Devs taking away the existing buff that for example Sorcs facilitate "Broken Valor" or "Wound Enemies" That Golems facilitate? - you know the Attack Debuff and/or Armor Break/Sunder that should be used on ANY Hostile Unit at the appropriate time *insert brain here* not just on "Good" units? I certainly hope not. It appeared from the video that those Buffs/Debuffs still exist in the new Patch Content, however how effective will they be against an alignment that is "bad"? Do buffs/debuffs affect alignment?

Players need more control and options not an "easier" system. We need a *CHOICE* (to exercise our mental faculties if so desired) of at the very minimum - a few skills per unit. We need buffs specific to each unit/class - We need mitigating values or skills such as "Block", "Dodge" and/or "Parry".


And why not give players the ability to choose weapons or even better yet to develop or craft or skill up a weapon or weapons of choice? Devs could even add or implement basic stats choices such as Intel or Strengh, Agility etc. giving us the choice to choose a certain amount of stat points (or even skill points) as we deem necessary per unit per tool-kit. We need the option to choose which unit takes a turn and when; apply a buff? Why yes! Mitigate and attack, certainly! Use a particular skill on a hostile, of course!

I want my Wizard/Sorc to FROSTBOLT - FREEZE Suckah (insert evil maniacal laugh) - Nuke-Nuke buhbye! GONE Seeyahlater! - not the typical boring apply an attack break or defense break/sunder armor and then simple boring *blam blam blam* --- After all this is a RTS (of sorts) correct?...I guess without much thought into player "Strategy". *sigh*

Why not even add attack speed (speed of attack)or weapon speed or speed of travel like a Sorc/Mages "Blink" or an Assassin Class "Stealth"? Would be fun....

Think about how fun it would be to have a Sorc for example have 3 skills to choose from; skills such as Freezing an enemy or Blinking across the map or a Frost or Fire Nuke with a damage bonus when Frozen or perhaps an AOE (Area of Effect) - meaning many targets are hit at once Skill such as Frost Nova - freezing all targets hit for one turn?

Or adding to our first (often obsolete deep in the knowledge tree units) units such as Sword Dancer the ability to go into Hiding/Stealth or Sneak up from behind for facilitating a Back-stab skill that is a given Crit thus double damage?

Imagine taking possible in-coming damage from a hostile target but instead of the usual scenario playing out we possess the choice to facilitate skills & or abilities to Mitigate that damage through various methods such as Block or Blink or Stealth OR choosing instead to apply a Debuff (to hostile units) or Buff (to self or another friendly target) then choosing to exert damage... perhaps a Sorc could use a skill that turns a hostile unit into a harmless fluffy kitten or fuzzy lamb...

*sis boom baaahhh* = The sound of a Sheep exploding!

Of course skills/abilities such as these would need GCDs (Global CoolDowns) & Personal Skill/Ability Cool Downs or they could potentially become OP as well as the opposing Hostile players from the AI perspective would also need to possess similar skill/sets-tool/kits.

Another idea in the future that I know has been touched on is Real Live PvP or Player Verses Player combat/arena.

Give the players a variety of unique and carefully developed options that make combat both enjoyable and rewarding; some of us actually enjoy a healthy vibrant combat system that rewards facilitating the correct choice at the correct time.

Create for us true Game (Combat) Meta that is Progressive in Nature, Enjoyable & Rewarding.

PS how sad that I have almost a Zillion troops! okay a bit of an exaggeration however this bites how Devs are implementing this new and (improved?!?!?) combat system and what??? I am a bit confused - are we losing our existing troops? if sooooo - I'm not a happy camper..conqueror...builder...chic.

 

[SoggyShorts]

This is...ambitious? You're talking about a completely different game. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't mind playing a combination city-builder/diablo game, but I think it's a little much to expect from INNO games.

 

[DeletedUser861]

#Soggyshorts - I hear yah and I get it.

Here is the thing: I've come back to Elvenar because something about this game is enjoyable to me however I want to quit playing again and within just two weeks game time because of combat. As badly as I hate going to the dentist and having my teeth pulled out S.L.O.....W.L.Y is how badly I feel inside when I know I have to grind out KP (I have this whole new tree to finish & now play catch up) through combat if I desire to truly progress at a decent rate anyway *sigh -big breath*. It practically takes me being tied to two wild stallions dragging me through while enduring great discomfort TO actually participate in Combat in this game AND I know many others feel the same way and have even left the game.

This is nothing like Diablo and can never be; I agree. This is a turn style combat table system. Within that system what I described is most definitely within the realm of possibility. Devs all ready have skills and buffs/debuffs implemented - we just have very little choice in the matter of rotation or enough choice in utility or for example the smallest change: allowing us to choose when a unit moves as in the order. Giving us a few skills will not make the combat more challenging necessarily but CAN make the combat a lot more fun!

As far as INNO - Though I have been in the gaming industry for some time (including some education), I know very little about programming in regards to the abilities or limitations of INNO's dev team. I myself am no programmer but have a basic understanding (more on the user end than anything) of combat systems and combat or player (Tool-kits etc) balance.

I would think that if the INNO dev team has some skill they can try to implement changes that keep their player base excited about the one area of the game that most dread and dislike the most - Combat, thus retaining & maintaining happy & content players. If INNO does not possess the skill, I am confident a lot of it can be acquired through talented game devs/programmers that do posses this talent or through other applicable sources.

Perhaps it would take a complete "Overhaul", perhaps not; perhaps they could implement just some of these ideas; from my perspective the little I have requested is not that much especially if implemented slowly so balance is not an issue.

 

[DeletedUser3312]

laughter, you are asking for way too much from Inno. They have made fighting almost impossible now and continue screwing it up. Instead of giving us more power, they took it away and gave it to our opponents. Fighting now is simply suicide for your troops.

 

[DeletedUser861]

#Jewess - I appreciate your input and insight - you know again I know nothing about this particular organization & have been gone a long time from Elvenar.

It didn't take me long to create this post; I gave it my best shot hoping that perhaps Devs or their Forums Rep would see it - perhaps others might care.

What is odd to me as this type or style of game is indeed a "Strategy" or "RTS" game but without the Combat Strategy which is the hallmark of all RTS games; its pretty much just a "Collect resources & build pretty things" game & it appears to me after chatting with various players - that this is what most folks want - I think many would be happy if Devs just eliminated combat altogether - I also believe having exposure to both this community & communities of similar nature & style (fun browser games) that many players have no idea how much Fun dynamic, engaging and rewarding combat can be, which to me is very sad.

 

[dikke ikke]

yep, fighting is/was for me the fun part, for provinces or in tournaments, negotiating or catering was only for the unwinnable fights. I will see how it goes with the new fighting system, there will probably be a new learning curve, but I guess I can live with that. I am not too far ahead as some players, so I hope it will be ok

 

[DeletedUser3468]

I'm totally lost where the changes in fighting are concerned. I had started out my Human city with the intention of not using negotiation once I had my barracks up. I was able to do that for a fair amount of time but as I advanced, had to compromise or constantly have my troops wiped out because of sending 45 out against 120 or more at a time. I really looked forward to the first axman upgrade only to find it basically worthless because even with that upgrade and the troop numbers upgrade, I was still going up against much stronger and larger enemy troops. I'll give the new system a try but have no idea how it's going to work for me.

I have to agree with the others here, Laughter Song, that your suggestions are very interesting and would undoubtedly make fighting more fun but think it's way beyond the scope of Inno, at least for this game. Times like this, I miss having the available funds for playing mmorpg's. (I either played tanks or thieves... for whatever that's worth... )

 

[SoggyShorts]

".....RTS" game but without the Combat Strategy....

Just so you know, RTS stands for Real Time Strategy, games like starcraft or age of empires are RTS. In an RTS game if you walk away from your computer for a couple hours(minutes) when you come back you will have lost the game.
Turn-based combat is the exact opposite of RTS.

 

[DeletedUser861]

#Sheianna Thanks for your imput. I too usually play a Tank or Assassin class. =D I recently both alpha'd and Beta'd then went to Live for a few weeks within the game Riders of Icarus; for a free game it's a lot of fun! (I typically am not impressed with most F2P Korean MMORPGS) It was the Assassin class that hooked me as the tool-kit and mobility are a blast to play and somewhat of a challenge to master; perhaps give it a look or try it out Ive included a link.
PS I LOVE Horses!!!

#SoggyShorts - Yes I am well aware, however - Most games that implement Building & Combat also implement Real Time Strategy as well (in the area of Live PvP combat) as well as AI combat. StarCraft which I have played - (Ive played all Blizzard games; some in much greater degree than others as well as DoTA & HOTs & some LoL but most definitely not a master at MOBA type games *sigh* I try.) These games facilitate active or "action" combat (Mapping too) and are not Turn Style in nature, however facilitate great mobility and aspects of RPG. Summoners War is a great example but with a much lower ratio of Building implemented into it nor is their "true" progression in building but instead in collecting, evolving & building team comps (with units) and progressing both through AI (dungeon style & AI Arena) content as well as Real Time PvP & recently added "Raid" - 3 player dungeon combat.

Most "Civilization" type games do possess many aspects of RTS and are often classified as such for example in the Steam search engine. This is why I added "of sorts" to that particular statement. Browser games have within them their own limitations as well.

I'm certain you will agree - Though the lines that differentiate games have become blurred as games and gaming types & styles evolve; The biggest difference in determining Classification (in regards to strategy types) is (the) "Real Time" (VS Player).

A Quote from an Elvenar advertisement: "Elvenar is a wonderful Free-to-Play Online Browser-based Real-Time Strategy and MMO video game that offers brilliant City building aesthetics as a plus with the core game-play."
http://www.moregameslike.com/elvenar/

 

[DeletedUser861]

NOTE: I wanted to add this information to this particular thread so those who find themselves here might find any of this useful: This was post/reply to a player.

#(______)
I am so sorry - How frustrating - I have SOOOO been there. I want you to know it will get better and that currently at my level (approximately level 15 Main Hall and most buildings) I NEVER Lose a combat battle and rarely lose a unit.
... of course that may change as I level, however I will always try to maintain and equal ratio/level VS AI opposing units.

You will NOT Need to Negotiate after some investment into the game IF you give yourself some time to 1) grow the size of your troops & Armory/Barracks upgrades & 2) learn some tactics. The only time to use "Negotiate" is when 1) the cost of the resources is far less than the cost of replicating units 2) you have plenty of resources to spend.

This is what I did many months ago to prepare myself to succeed in combat: I took the time to put all my KP into every available area regarding Combat; every unit upgrade, every size upgrade Prior to engaging in combat. I also upgraded my Barracks to the highest level and 3 Armories - I created and upgraded only 2 Armories initially until approximately level 6 (Wisdom of Wonders) within the KP tree line.

Trust me - In the Long run, It is SO worth every KP spent!!! .... Because once you have the tactical combat advantage you can earn KP Quickly!

Some Combat Advice: #1) Use this guide (link = "A list of...") REPEATEDLY until you are very familiar with the AI opposing units tactics and Even More Importantly - Your Own Units abilities and Tactics until it becomes second nature: A list of all Elvenar Units & their abilities, debuffs & buffs.

I understand it can be time consuming, however it will become second nature to you and combat will become more enjoyable as you master your ability.

2) Some very basic Strategy advice: Your Units should be similar in size and level when engaging the AI combat in order to succeed. I am currently upgrading my barracks and it should be complete sometime tomorrow/Monday morning - when I have it complete I will let you know what the average level and size of my troops are per "Squad Size" because quite honestly as stated in the initial paragraph; at my level (on my Main Elvin account) I never lose and rarely even lose a unit; worst case scenario I lose a few Treants because I use them as "Tanks" to draw in the AI units and absorb the damage from most to all opposing units.

From what I have experience most of the AI Units will primarily attack the Treant initially and then repeatedly if when using light archers or other light units IF they are kept out of range and away from at least opposing melee classes. I position my Treants always taking steps towards Melee. I try also to maneuver in a way that cuts off or corners AI units (esp those pesky Mage classes who can move quite far) Treants destroy WarDogs!!!


I also try to facilitate two Sorcs and at least one Golem per round simply for the Buff/Debuffs they each provide. What works for me is to make sure my Sorc "Debuffs" the most dangerous and closest (usually a melee class like green skinned Orc or a Knight) The Sorc's debuff "Broken Valor" begins at the lowest level as a 60% Dmg Debuff to any opposing unit and at the highest level is 80%.

***Debuffs from Oppossing AI Units can hurt you far more than a larger over all Size. If a Sorc debuffs your hardest hitter, he will do 60% to 80% less dmg and on some units because of their built in abilities that can equal NO dmg. Pay attention and watch what happens when a Sorc places "Broken Valor" on one of your individual units.***

Once you have debuffs on opposing Melee Units or Cannoneeers (who are VERY Dangerous to Light Archers), Steinlings (ranged rock chuckers) or threatening Melee within range of wounding one of your units; you can now FF (Focus Fire - which means to focus down one unit until dead) ALL opposing Mage classes/Sorcs because they debuff your units as well. Make certain you make good use out of your Golems because they apply a type of backwards buff - "Wound Enemies" onto opposing units that increase the next round of attacks by 10%!

Wardogs (who like Cannoneers love to eat Light Archers) similar to your Golems also apply an additon 10% dmg buff "Wound Enemies" to opposing units so that your next hit (that round) does less dmg as well. If a Wardog does not kill your Light Archers for example - they still leave a nasty 10% dmg decrease - which stacks!

Cannoneers are dangerous to Light Archers & to Treants if a Sorc has placed a Debuff on them however you can use this to your advantage. Any unit that takes most of the damage can 'tank" for you - draw in all the most critical type damage. Because Light Archers cost low resources and are easy to replicate; I personally would rather lose them than more expensive Treants.

Make certain when using Sorcs they are in a position behind Tank Units BUT always leave an opening; Sorcs need room to Flee across the map out of harms way if opposing units are too close. Wardogs can be a problem (because of their range of travel but are harmless if you Debuff them "Broken Valor" from a Sorc first) so try to keep them behind Treants and use your Treants to destroy those Wardogs asap.

3) Take the time to Experiment: Try using All Treants, All Sorcs, No Light Archers, Just Golems and Treants - Mix it up. My go to default team in this order is usually: Treant, Sorc, Golem, Sorc, Treant.

You will get stronger, better and very comfortable with the strategy and tactics of all units as your practice and grow and combat will be far more enjoyable.

I'll hop on and add a bit more to this thread in regards to what unit size etc has worked well for me VS the level & unit sizes of the AI's opposing team.

PS: (I'm actually thinking of/debating whether I should either produce a video on how to achieve success in combat or a step by step guide - maybe both; however either would take a significant amount of time and investment.)

 

[DeletedUser61]

It practically takes me being tied to two wild stallions dragging me through while enduring great discomfort TO actually participate in Combat in this game

I think many would be happy if Devs just eliminated combat altogether

fighting is/was for me the fun part, for provinces or in tournaments, negotiating or catering was only for the unwinnable fights.

I don't much care for Thud and Blunder, so I treat combat as a wonderfully interesting puzzle. I may make a few manual moves to get units positioned as I prefer, but my INTENTION is to use auto fight as soon as possible to see if I can actually anticipate the course of the entire battle when both sides are managed by the combat engine.

 

[DeletedUser3696]

I've found that almost all fights are quite easy with the current system, but then again I haven't forged to far ahead of the advanced scouting requirements for # of provinces. I believe I've usually been about 1/2 - 1 ring ahead (I was just entering the 11th ring when the orc chapter came out and I'm still in that ring with about 10 provinces to go before I start the 12th ring).
This keeps my squad size as high as possible, while giving me the best possible troops versus an enemy that isn't too large. My losses range from almost nothing to at most 2 stacks per fight.
I fight as a human and currently only use priests and paladins or just paladins. For a very few fights I throw dogs in if it's just ranged attackers like sorcs, archers and cannons.