New Player Combat Unbalanced

[Mykan]

@Dralmar there is some great advice from Lyapo. The key is learning about this "Goldilocks zone" something they need to put into a tutorial or similar. This zone is smaller in the first couple eras but it does grow as you move through the eras to roughly 20 provinces more then the chests depending on skill in combat.

You always have the option to cater as well and when you get to tournaments (Era 3) those are fixed and scale-able fights based on where you are at. An approach to cater and fight is also a very good choice.

By staying close to the chest province numbers you will not run out of space to run your city. Like everybody regardless of city size you have to make choices about priorities of what is important to your strategy and build your town to suit. The amount of factory space required to cater verse combat or combo is surprisingly very little. The variance is more regarding patience or speed. More space = more factories = faster catering provinces, but there are some pretty hard catches to that so it is a choice you need to decide for yourself. There are ways to still go fast without the same catches as rushing world map expansion, those will have their own catches too.

If the basic of the game have peaked your interest, stick around learn a bit about the combat and find a good fellowship. Ideally one where people trade, offer advice and are positive and adapting to the challenges the game throws at them.

Happy gaming.

 

[DeletedUser3507]

I will point out one premium advantage 2 magic workshops lvl 7 will produce the same amount of supplies as 4 lvl 19 workshops. Without a boost and with outproduce 8.

8 lvl 19 workshops produces 22k per hr @ 180%
2 lvl 7 magics produce 10.5k and with power of provisions 33k @ 180%
For those who go the catering route this saves alot of space.

 

[DeletedUser43]

The key is learning about this "Goldilocks zone" something they need to put into a tutorial or similar.

I think it was mentioned, but let me reiterate. Staying in the "Goldilocks zone" retards your progress in the size of your city. Scouting times always increase as you keep playing. It is the one thing you can't upgrade. In order to stay in the "Goldilocks zone" you will have to let your scouts sit idle and stop exploring. Additionally, you will only be able to scout in a perfect hexagonal ring and never veer outside of it. You cannot go to an active neighbor if they are outside of that ring. You cannot reach certain trading partners and you will have to pay higher trader's fees if those trading partners aren't in the exact right ring. You will not be able to help certain neighbors unless they are in that perfect ring.

But mostly, stopping your scouts means that you will have fewer expansions, because you only get expansions by scouting and clearing more provinces. This means less room to do the one thing we are all here to do....build a city. Also, you lose out on a bunch of quests that have you gain a certain number of relics. You will complete fewer quests that have you complete a province. You could also lose out on contests that have you gain a certain number of relics and/or scout a certain number of provinces.

Oh, that's right...you will also not be able to make as much use of the magic academy, should you choose to build it, because in order to use it you need lots of relics which you can't get if you aren't sending your scouts out.

That leads me to the issue where your factories will not be able to produce as effectively because they need lots of relics in order to get them producing at the maximum.

It is all about balance.

I agree with the OP.

 

[DeletedUser3507]

I tried saying that but you did it so much better.

 

[DeletedUser43]

I think you did an awesome job jps! This game is so intricate that it is hard to remember all the things that adjusting one thing affects. I'm sure I missed a dozen things!

 

[DeletedUser2963]

But mostly, stopping your scouts means that you will have fewer expansions, because you only get expansions by scouting and clearing more provinces. This means less room to do the one thing we are all here to do....build a city.

Your right if you go the full trader route you will have more expansions. However, because you went the full trader route, you need those expansions desperately! The increasing negotiation costs force you to build more and more manufactories, warehouses and houses to fuel catering. It creates its own demanding little cycle and many players have great fun with that.

Oh, that's right...you will also not be able to make as much use of the magic academy, should you choose to build it, because in order to use it you need lots of relics which you can't get if you aren't sending your scouts out.

Again, this does matter if you go the catering route you don't have to use spells but they are really handy for boosting production.

If you stay inside the "goldilocks zone" you still need more room, needing more room is part of the game, but you don't need as much room as someone who caters.

You don't need as many houses, warehouses, or manufactoies. Yes you build as many as you can in order to stockpile or not..depends on how your playing.

There is only 1 hard wall atm, orcs. So if someone wanted to expand to "discover" a neighbor they can. But with player moving still in effect, I would not recommend anyone do this.

 

[DeletedUser3312]

One of the reasons I have catered and will continue to do so... open new province expansions... no not for a while but.. I will work with what i have and open city provinces. there are all sorts of challenges.. sometimes they boggle the mind. few I would agree are fair, most I feel are detrimental to game play and turn people away from playing.... all this does not matter... Inno has one thought and that thought is what they will go with. and if people don't like it.. they can leave the game. Inno real;y does not listen to players ideas, thoughts, concerns, suggestions. even though they "ask for them" lol. a true funny. So I will play.. I've put more real money in this game that was ,,,, well intelligent.. sigh.. so I hate to just throw it all away. but.. but...but.. I will not spend one more coin. nope.. and do usually pay to play as I do know that programmers/developers have to make a living. These guys need to learn that it pays to listen to your audience.

 

[DeletedUser43]

If you stay inside the "goldilocks zone" you still need more room, needing more room is part of the game, but you don't need as much room as someone who caters.

If you want to be able to really fight in this game, you need lots and lots of room. You need to have the martial monastery ancient wonder, the needles of the tempest ancient wonder, the dwarven bulwark ancient wonder, the heroes forge ancient wonder, the mercenary camp, the cerebus training grounds, extra armories, and all the houses and workshops you need for those things, plus of course the thousands of kp that it takes to build those wonders.

Plus, as you keep going through the tech tree, the races themselves need tons and tons of room. Just getting through the orc chapter took the room of about 15 expansions.

I haven't done the math and looked at what it takes to stay inside the GZ, so, I am not disagreeing that it may take less room. I am just pointing out that so many things take up a lot of room.

 

[DeletedUser2963]

@Bobbykitty You don't need all those wonders in the goldilocks zone...you need those to fight two rings out and for tournament domination. Also the training ground and mercenary camp are just bells and whistles, they don't actually add to your victories. Dont get me wrong, I say that and still, I want them all anyway! I will settle for the barracks armory, training ground, and merc camp, because we all know that there is no possible way to fit every thing we want in our cities, but we try


I just hit my first guest race and am looking forward to making everything fit. Not looking forward to deleting things. Trying to decide now if I want to go full fight or full trader...right now I am in the middle, but mostly I have been fighting since the update. Which means I have a surplus of goods. If I am not going to cater, I can delete almost half of my manufactories and several of my warehouses.

 

[SoggyShorts]

Just getting through the orc chapter took the room of about 15 expansions.

Was that enough to keep you from getting tech-locked?
6.5 expansions was enough for dwarf, and should be close for fairies, maybe 7.5. I know orcs needs much more

 

[DeletedUser3696]

Was that enough to keep you from getting tech-locked?
6.5 expansions was enough for dwarf, and should be close for fairies, maybe 7.5. I know orcs needs much more

I calculated 16 expansions worth and I still was tech locked, just not too too badly. The dwarves and fairies combined have nothing on the orcs.

The good news is that the woodelves so far seems full steam ahead for the first half at least. I'm just pumping every single kp into tech and have enough mana every time with just 3 weeping willows. You cannot build the portal or other woodelf buildings until later in the chapter.

 

[SoggyShorts]

I calculated 16 expansions worth and I still was tech locked, just not too too badly. The dwarves and fairies combined have nothing on the orcs.

That should work then-- I'm too lazy to check atm, but I probably get 10 expansions from dwarf start to fairy finish, thanks @TSmack

 

[DeletedUser3507]

Scout your # 1 player, usually you will get a good idea, From what I see it requires 3 rally points that are huge a portal and lots of mushroom farms.

 

[DeletedUser2191]

That should work then-- I'm too lazy to check atm, but I probably get 10 expansions from dwarf start to fairy finish, thanks @TSmack

6 expansions from research in dwarf chapter.
5 expansions from research in fairies chapter.

5 - 7 expansions (approximately) from both chapters from province conquering.

 

[DeletedUser2870]

It rectifies itself over time. You just have to wait until you reach a point where you actually need to obtain more provinces in order to unlock a chapter and not go very much beyond that number.

No, it does NOT rectify itself.
As you state, it only becomes possible to win battles again if one were to wait for weeks or even months without scouting. Yet without the scouting there's no other serious way of getting expansions and making your city grow.
But having to wait for weeks or months without being able to do much more than collect goods is not rectifcying itself. It is extremely booring and one of the main reasons so many people have been quitting since that change.

Also, it was something that was suddenly dumped on players and there still is no satisfying explanation for it, since the whole 'balancing' argument doesn't make any sense and already has been debunked.

 

[SoggyShorts]

It is extremely booring and one of the main reasons so many people have been quitting since that change.

This is the part I don't get. For those players that are 300+ cleared, they have 3-4 day scout time, and enough room for factories to cater provinces as fast as they explore, so what has changed for them? Was going all golem/sorc to clear 8 encounters once or twice a week that much fun?

 

[DeletedUser2870]

This is the part I don't get. For those players that are 300+ cleared, they have 3-4 day scout time, and enough room for factories to cater provinces as fast as they explore, so what has changed for them? Was going all golem/sorc to clear 8 encounters once or twice a week that much fun?

No, it was not. Which is why one could at least experiment with different troops and have some hairraising battles.
Besides, even with a golem/sorceress combo it could be a hard fight and a a close one when the opposing army was much larger, And yes, I lost battles and would try again.
Now what is the use (or fun) of even fielding an army if the troops are literally decimated before they even get into position?

edit:
So what I used to do was scout when possible and keep building troops and then on a saturday or sunday afternoon battle through the provinces.
Or if I had some time at another moment, fight 1 or 2 encounters. I would win some fights, loose others. If I lost an encouter 3x in a row I'd negotiate it, but that didn't happen very often.

Doing so meant I was online at the time, keeping in touch with other players and of course my FS-members by chat.
It also meant that in between battles we could quickly trade and so help everyone along.

What happens now is that I'll just negotiate the encounters since I can't fight them anyway. I don't have to wait for the saturday or sunday afternoon. I'll just negotiate them when I see the province is cleared.
But it also means I'm much less online playing the game now. Less time spent on the game automatically means less interest and a much lesser chance of ever buying diamonds again.

Also, a whole part of the citybuilding challenge is gone. Military buildings are virtually no use anymore. So the challenge of building a city, asking myself which building to place or upgrade has grown decidedly less.
I need one armory, perhaps 2 at most, though I think I'll try it with one now that I have upgraded all my workshops to the woodelven max.
I have my barracks, can't sell it or downgrade it, but won't be upgrading it anymore either.
I have no need for the traininggrounds and the mercenary camp.
I was considering investing in the Needles of Tempest and upping it further, but have taken that one down instead (cursing all the KP's I invested in it to bring it to lvl 4 and could better have spent elsewhere).
I'm considering doing the same with the Martial Monastery, though that will hurt even more since it's at lvl 6, halfway through to lvl 7, so as long as I don't really need the space, I'll keep it.

By making fights impossible, they have rendered buildings related to that pretty much obsolete. So there's less of a choice, unless it is what type of boosted goods to focus on.

All of that makes it so that day by day I spend LESS time on the game and will very likely just let it fade unless something changes.
And that fading away of players is exactly what I see happening in both my fellowships AND on the maps on both worlds, so I'm definitely not the only one.
On the dutch world I was moved to a spot with a lot of cities around me...but over 80% of them are inactive and that number is growing weekly.

 

[DeletedUser]

@Dralmar there is some great advice from Lyapo. The key is learning about this "Goldilocks zone" something they need to put into a tutorial or similar. This zone is smaller in the first couple eras but it does grow as you move through the eras to roughly 20 provinces more then the chests depending on skill in combat.

You always have the option to cater as well and when you get to tournaments (Era 3) those are fixed and scale-able fights based on where you are at. An approach to cater and fight is also a very good choice.

By staying close to the chest province numbers you will not run out of space to run your city. Like everybody regardless of city size you have to make choices about priorities of what is important to your strategy and build your town to suit. The amount of factory space required to cater verse combat or combo is surprisingly very little. The variance is more regarding patience or speed. More space = more factories = faster catering provinces, but there are some pretty hard catches to that so it is a choice you need to decide for yourself. There are ways to still go fast without the same catches as rushing world map expansion, those will have their own catches too.

If the basic of the game have peaked your interest, stick around learn a bit about the combat and find a good fellowship. Ideally one where people trade, offer advice and are positive and adapting to the challenges the game throws at them.

Happy gaming.

I did read the guide. Based on the "ring" function the combat info seems basically useless. As I pointed out in my first post I have the exact troops to counter the enemy, numbers and buffs and bonuses but lost in absurd fashion. My outnumbering bonused and "advantageous" troops were destroyed by the lesser numbered out-classed mages.

I am 65 years old and have been gaming since I was six. I owned two gaming stores and have probably 500 games if you add in all my board games and computer games.

To put in a system such as this WITHOUT LETTING NEW PLAYERS KNOW is a mistake. I have often told new players to a game who don't know the "rules" like veterans that the French did not know the new "rules" when the blitz came, but had to learn them as the war went on. But in this case it is so instrumental to the game and places me into a long term detrimental position that I cannot fathom why the developers would do this.

They also simply turn off any gamers that like to mix building with battle. My first draw to this game was that it include tactical turn-based combat. (Being 65 you don't have the reflexes for RTS games vs. humans). I see more turn-based games as my sons, now in their 30s struggle against younger players - hah, hah!.

Anyway, I hope they find a way to balance the system so it does not crowd you into a corner where one aspect of the game is largely non-functional for fun.

I'll check in from time to time to see if they ever "fix" it.

IMHO

 

[DeletedUser1349]

My 2nd question was never answered, so here goes again. Does this work the same for negotiating costs? Unlocking the Advanced Scouting in a new chapter reduces negotiating costs in un-scouted provinces but not previously scouted provinces?

How about tournaments? Same or separate issue?

 

[DeletedUser3507]

Separate.

With the 3rd star you might be able to fight depending on your AW's or lack of ij, progress in tree and if its not one of your boost, I got cremated due to being a boosted tourney, so I catered day 2-4.

And I am in Orcs.

Also your seriously outgunned.