New Player Combat Unbalanced

[DeletedUser3696]

@Katwijk

I will just say that you and I apparently have a VERY different definition of 'normalised'.

As for liking to hang out on the bleeding edge as you so nicely put it, no, I do not. I just have no choice in this game.

And yes, most of the players are in the beginning...hmmm...how come? Oh yes, they have been chasing away their existing customers. But don't worry, by messing up some more, they will manage to chase away those new ones too.


@Mykan

yes, I'm glad they didn't dump it at all too. On that aspect I'm in full agreement.
However, there have been a lot of more units introduced and they're nothing but mirror-images of already existing units, bringing nothing new to the game. Except being required tech to research to slow players down again.

The cerberus may be a blessing for some, sure. But 3 different buildings sharing 1 queue? Come on.

And what I personally find extremely annoying is that it's been the elven-players who have been hit disproportionally hard by all the changes.
The treant 2 lost it's special ability AND a lot of the punch, at the same time being much more vulnerable. (where the knight gained a distance-strikeback)
The sorceress lost power AND range AND got a high initiative making her either stand in front of her own troops to be slaughtered or having to skip the first turn. But the priests have been buffed.
With the mortar, humans got a long range unit available, where elves have not. And have no unit able to effectively deal with them.

If I'm not mistaken, the general agreement was that Elves had the superior army once they got the sorceress unlocked and humans were at a severe disadvantage from that point on.
So we either have a balancing of the human/elf army strength or they have tipped the scales to favour the human army - I have no idea which is better at the moment??
Also, the mortar for those in late game is useless since it's lvl 1 (hoping that the new tech that upgrades it at least doubles it's stats). It currently is a waste since it can't even dent the enemies it has the advantage against and it's better to just use a blessed paladin.

I do wish the new units were almost equal to what our native units are or at least had some different abilities to make them sometimes a better option. Currently they have no use for those in late game.

 

[DeletedUser1016]

Imagine if they added an expansion to the tech tree... just one, almost anywhere. Even if it doesn't fit their idea of city size balance they should do it just for the good publicity. I'd love to see a thread or 3 on the forums titled "Thanks INNO" without a "/sarcasm" in it.

I love this idea!!! Ahhhh, it's nice to dream.

 

[DeletedUser3312]

New update just shut us both down. Apparently military is not optional tech!!
I also hadn't realized you need mana for upgrades - it does seem 4 willows will be needed if not more. I have had about 110k with just 3 willows, but that was starting to normalize and stay constant due to decay.

Tim, you are going to need at least 7 willow cultures... some on beta are saying 9. I hate this constant getting thrown back to an earlier chapter to do research on things I will never use. sigh.. wish the developers worked more on city building than battling which is a waste of time as you just get creamed.

 

[DeletedUser1016]

Tim, you are going to need at least 7 willow cultures... some on beta are saying 9.

Jewess, is that because of the visit race and the type of goods produced?

I'm just about to open the forest glad research [well, I was until the earlier chapter research happened] and up until now three [3] Willow Trees have been perfect, I'm able to keep up with the needed mana in relationship to the KP needed for each research. Matter of fact, it seems almost perfect to this point because I've had minimal loss due to percent decay.

Oh, in addition to the 3 willows, I have 50 ghost houses, but they produce only 5/hr of mana.

 

[DeletedUser2870]

If I'm not mistaken, the general agreement was that Elves had the superior army once they got the sorceress unlocked and humans were at a severe disadvantage from that point on.
So we either have a balancing of the human/elf army strength or they have tipped the scales to favour the human army - I have no idea which is better at the moment??
Also, the mortar for those in late game is useless since it's lvl 1 (hoping that the new tech that upgrades it at least doubles it's stats). It currently is a waste since it can't even dent the enemies it has the advantage against and it's better to just use a blessed paladin.

I do wish the new units were almost equal to what our native units are or at least had some different abilities to make them sometimes a better option. Currently they have no use for those in late game.

Yes, LATE in the game the elves finally got better units than the humans. Up to that point, fighting was way easier for human players, making it possible for them to gain provinces (and thus expansions) way faster than elven-players, as well as gaining KP's easier through fighting.
The elves had to play catch-up and only got a chance to do so after unlocking the sorceress, and actually the golem 1 was extremely weak, so it took until after unlocking the golem 2 before they really had some good units.
So now they nerved the best elven units in such a way that they are useless by the time they finally are available.
Treant 2 lost it's ability to make enemies do less damage, knights gained a distance strikeback. Not to mention that that distance attack of a HM unit without a strickeback from the other side already was something only the human units had.
Priests got better, whereas the sorceress now is only empty-air.
The humans gained a mortar, but even the granite golems got way more vulnerable.

So yes, where humans had the advantage of a rapid growth in the first part and elves had to catch up, elves now are pretty much screwed later on as well.
Personally I feel that if the units of one race get better only late in the game, then they really should be rewarded with something, not be punished for having to wait so long and finally getting there.

And just to try it out, I started an elven and a human city same day, to see if the dif really was so bad as I felt it was. It was. My first axemen units walked all over the field with hardly any losses, where the elven swords took heavy losses. So the human city also needed a lot less supplies to replace them than the elven city, freeing those for other use.
In a month, the human city was nearly twice the size and a chapter ahead of the elven city.
One might try it again with the new system, see if that has changed, but the game has lost too much of its appeal for me to try it and spend a lot of time on it again...perhaps ever again.

I do agree that the mortar one is awkwardly placed in the techtree though, making the upgrades even later. But hey, elves have been facing that kind of stuff since the start of the game. And at least you do have a super range unit and know there are upgrades for them.

 

[DeletedUser4778]

So my findings for one case were that Advanced Scouts reduces enemy squad size by -98.5 squads per encounter. Went over to Platinum Leaf and saw two examples and both results were similar to mine. Sorry, but a reduction of less than 100 is not enough for me (not to mention that negotiation costs were actually not significantly reduced and actually more expensive considering that tier 3 goods showed an increase instead of a decrease) considering that I could have negotiated to get an expansion or two earlier and gained back the expenditure in good time. Will definitely sell an armory once I'm done upgrading residences to make room for granite and, later, 2 marble factories.

 

[DeletedUser3696]

Yes, LATE in the game the elves finally got better units than the humans. Up to that point, fighting was way easier for human players, making it possible for them to gain provinces (and thus expansions) way faster than elven-players, as well as gaining KP's easier through fighting.
The elves had to play catch-up and only got a chance to do so after unlocking the sorceress, and actually the golem 1 was extremely weak, so it took until after unlocking the golem 2 before they really had some good units.
So now they nerved the best elven units in such a way that they are useless by the time they finally are available.
Treant 2 lost it's ability to make enemies do less damage, knights gained a distance strikeback. Not to mention that that distance attack of a HM unit without a strickeback from the other side already was something only the human units had.
Priests got better, whereas the sorceress now is only empty-air.
The humans gained a mortar, but even the granite golems got way more vulnerable.

So yes, where humans had the advantage of a rapid growth in the first part and elves had to catch up, elves now are pretty much screwed later on as well.
Personally I feel that if the units of one race get better only late in the game, then they really should be rewarded with something, not be punished for having to wait so long and finally getting there.

And just to try it out, I started an elven and a human city same day, to see if the dif really was so bad as I felt it was. It was. My first axemen units walked all over the field with hardly any losses, where the elven swords took heavy losses. So the human city also needed a lot less supplies to replace them than the elven city, freeing those for other use.
In a month, the human city was nearly twice the size and a chapter ahead of the elven city.
One might try it again with the new system, see if that has changed, but the game has lost too much of its appeal for me to try it and spend a lot of time on it again...perhaps ever again.

I do agree that the mortar one is awkwardly placed in the techtree though, making the upgrades even later. But hey, elves have been facing that kind of stuff since the start of the game. And at least you do have a super range unit and know there are upgrades for them.

Wow, I feel for ya. I only play one world and as a human so I really didn't know to what extent they nerfed the elven army.
I also am too far ahead so I only auto combat the tourneys and hadn't realized the paladin got an upgraded strikeback.

Given that most players seem to play as Elf, I can only surmize that Inno has decided to once again punish it's player base by nerfing the armies of the majority of players.
I still don't understand why the battle system needed revamping, when they could have put in scouting barriers to slow players down. Or for that matter any other measure to help stagnate the game.

Can someone confirm if Mortar 2 tech is new or just been moved from chapter 9? If it's new it's also mandatory and not optional.

 

[SoggyShorts]

Sorry, but a reduction of less than 100 is not enough for me

A reduction of 100 from how many?

 

[DeletedUser4778]

A reduction of 100 from how many?

In my case (Chapter 5, Ring 7 provinces), it was from 3205 to 2417 so -788 squad size for all encounters within a province / 8 encounters = average of -98.5 squads per encounter.

For Platinum Leaf's two encounter examples (also in Ring 7 although I don't know what chapter they were in) it was 429 vs 327 and 311 vs 237 so -102 and -74 respectively.

Also, as per Elvenar Platinum Leaf, the benefits of each Advanced Scouts research go down with each chapter. Here's the entry and link:

"Jack Luyt Each Advanced Scouting tech at the beginning of a new chapter provides a 25% reduction in Scouting Costs, Scouting Times, Negotiation Costs, and Combat Difficulty.
So the reductions are:
Chapter I 100%
Chapter II 75%
Chapter III 56%
Chapter IV 42%
Chapter V 32%
Chapter VI 23%
Chapter VII 17%

That is why opening a new chapter and unlocking the Advanced Scout gives you less and less advantage as you progress.
There are those who think this is not fair to advanced players..."

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10207373582238403&set=oa.1652024521719596&type=3&theater

 

[DeletedUser3507]

Soggy your just to cynical, but way funny.
Inno's just ignoring us for the most part.
More expansions, heck yes please.

 

[DeletedUser2870]

Yes, especially since the only 'tech' that is optional are some squadsize upgrades...and cityexpansions.
If I had known how they would mess with the battlesystem, I'd have skipped all the optional squadsize techs.

 

[DeletedUser4778]

I was considering skipping one in Chapter V but decided it would help me win province encounters for more KPs and expansions especially since the scrolls tourney was super delayed. Then they nerfed the sorceress and I didn't get to enter Dwarves before the Halloween event ended. I am still not over it.

 

[DeletedUser4522]

Yes, this seems to be the only way to do it in early chapters, but it means that while you are IN the chapter your city is a few expansions smaller than it would have been pre-update--which makes a huge difference for city planning.
My Baby beta is having a really hard time with this because I'm using it as a "auto-fight only" testing ground.

I agree!! It made a HUGE difference> They added the training grounds, but NO corresponding expansion to FIT it in!! Smh at this whole thing...

 

[DeletedUser3312]

Jewess, is that because of the visit race and the type of goods produced?

As you move along the tech tree, you will need more and more mana to complete techs, and because it deteriorates, you have to factor in the loss.

 

[SoggyShorts]

"Jack Luyt Each Advanced Scouting tech at the beginning of a new chapter provides a 25% reduction in Scouting Costs, Scouting Times, Negotiation Costs, and Combat Difficulty.
That is why opening a new chapter and unlocking the Advanced Scout gives you less and less advantage as you progress.
There are those who think this is not fair to advanced players..."

Chapter I 100% (100*0.75=75)
Chapter II 75% (75*0.75=56.25)
Chapter III 56% (56*0.75=42)
Chapter IV 42% (42*0.75=31.5)
Chapter V 32% (32*0.75=24)
Chapter VI 23% (23*0.75=17.25)
Chapter VII 17%

The reduction seems consistent
The next question is how much bigger do our armies get each chapter with the SS increases vs how much bigger enemies get when you expand.

Ideally at the minimum cleared provinces the

1. AS tech would reduce enemies to manageable size, then
2. Clearing a few provinces would slowly increase them
3. Getting an SS tech would make fights easier

repeat until end of chapter.

Currently it seems to be that you need to get ALL of the SS techs before you start to clear provinces within a chapter--at least in the lower chapters where I've tested.
If that issue isn't going to be balanced maybe they could move some of the expansions you get in the chapter towards the beginning.

 

[Mykan]

The next question is how much bigger do our armies get each chapter with the SS increases vs how much bigger enemies get when you expand.

There is a table in my guide for this, just haven't got one for enemies, unsure if I can due to so many variables.

 

[DeletedUser4778]

The next question is how much bigger do our armies get each chapter with the SS increases vs how much bigger enemies get when you expand.

I will see if I can compare them sometime but probably not anytime soon. Mykan's list is in my notes so all I need is the enemy data to do a comparative study. I'd better remind myself not to delete any of my current notes on enemy troops. Yeah, there are lots of variables so I'll have to note which chapter I was in when I scouted a certain province. I still have a couple of unconquered provinces left over from Chapter IV or V, yegads. Maybe I can do this after the next marble tourney which is when I plan to really focus on expansions since I should have gotten my boosts up to my level of satisfaction by then. I thought I would need to fight this week or the next for an expansion or two for granite mines but my army's pretty much wiped out by the current silk tourney so I'll need to recover. Some supposedly winnable province fights for me are not possible due to the number of abbot squads. Urk.