New Player Combat Unbalanced

[WolfSinger]

Personally, I can't find the so-called goldilocks zone.

I started a new city in Arydall (sp) - currently in chapter 2 - have completed 12 provinces (with #13 scouted - yes first one in ring 3), completed squad size upgrade 4. My only available troops are my swords and archers and I cannot fight in province 13 because I am facing Heavy Ranged Units - which neither of my troop options match up well against. Lost all my troops trying to fight. My plan is to WAIT until I complete all the tech in chapter 2 and then try to scout and fight to get the 30 needed to open chapter 3. We'll see how that goes.

This city is a bit of an experiment - going for self sustaining and work only within the stated province # on the chests and the LIMITED about of space that will allow.

 

[DeletedUser1016]

The good news is that the woodelves so far seems full steam ahead for the first half at least. I'm just pumping every single kp into tech and have enough mana every time with just 3 weeping willows. You cannot build the portal or other woodelf buildings until later in the chapter.

I'm experiencing the same. I'm just about to open the Main Hall research which only needs 40k of Mana, but the zinger here is to upgrade the MH requires 133k of mana!!! I'm not sure if just 3 weeping willows are going to cut it because of the 10% decay issue. I do have about 50 ghost houses filling in all my nooks and crannies...perhaps I might have to consolidate things to build more willows and increase the rate of mana production, but it's difficult to get a 5x5 space at this moment, especially with only 3 expansions given in this chapter? [186/hr vs 5/hr]

 

[SoggyShorts]

My plan is to WAIT until I complete all the tech in chapter 2 and then try to scout and fight to get the 30 needed to open chapter 3. We'll see how that goes.

Yes, this seems to be the only way to do it in early chapters, but it means that while you are IN the chapter your city is a few expansions smaller than it would have been pre-update--which makes a huge difference for city planning.
My Baby beta is having a really hard time with this because I'm using it as a "auto-fight only" testing ground.

 

[DeletedUser2963]

Yes, this seems to be the only way to do it in early chapters, but it means that while you are IN the chapter your city is a few expansions smaller than it would have been pre-update--which makes a huge difference for city planning.

And fewer kp, my baby city is also chapter 2, no tournaments and no provinces to boost kp, It is very slow going. On the bright side I spent my time building troops in my tiny little armory so as soon as I get my last squad size upgrade I will be good to go...ATM I outnumber everything in ring three, but I have not cleared it yet to hit ring 4

 

[DeletedUser1349]

One more time. Apparently putting two topics in a post causes one to be ignored.

Does this work the same for negotiating costs? Unlocking the Advanced Scouting in a new chapter reduces negotiating costs in un-scouted provinces but not previously scouted provinces?

Anyone know?

 

[SoggyShorts]

One more time. Apparently putting two topics in a post causes one to be ignored.

Does this work the same for negotiating costs? Unlocking the Advanced Scouting in a new chapter reduces negotiating costs in un-scouted provinces but not previously scouted provinces?

Anyone know?

I read these forums a lot, almost every post (except when BK and LM where fighting) and I don't recall seeing a definitive answer. I'm just a couple days from getting the fairies adv scout, so I'll record all of my negotiating costs now (ring 8 and 9), then I'll scout some same-type provinces and check.

 

[DeletedUser3312]

My 2nd question was never answered, so here goes again. Does this work the same for negotiating costs? Unlocking the Advanced Scouting in a new chapter reduces negotiating costs in un-scouted provinces but not previously scouted provinces?

How about tournaments? Same or separate issue?

Negotiating costs go up with each ring. If you have scouted out of your area, then yes, your negotiation costs will be higher. Tournaments are different. they go from really low to really high after the 3rd tournament. I do cater and in one of my cities where I have scouted out farther than Inno says I should have, my costs are a lot higher. In my other cities where I stay within the number of scout event area, my costs are a lot lower for the first 4 rings.

 

[qaccy]

No, it does NOT rectify itself.
As you state, it only becomes possible to win battles again if one were to wait for weeks or even months without scouting. Yet without the scouting there's no other serious way of getting expansions and making your city grow.
But having to wait for weeks or months without being able to do much more than collect goods is not rectifcying itself. It is extremely booring and one of the main reasons so many people have been quitting since that change.

Also, it was something that was suddenly dumped on players and there still is no satisfying explanation for it, since the whole 'balancing' argument doesn't make any sense and already has been debunked.

You don't have to constantly be gaining space in order to grow your city. The new buildings and upgrades brought on through research don't mandate that you need more expansions - and besides, the tech tree itself contains expansions as well.

A 'boredom' argument doesn't really work either because there're tournaments to battle in. And yes, those are very possible to win.

 

[DeletedUser4671]

One more time. Apparently putting two topics in a post causes one to be ignored.

Does this work the same for negotiating costs? Unlocking the Advanced Scouting in a new chapter reduces negotiating costs in un-scouted provinces but not previously scouted provinces?

Anyone know?

Yes, the Advance Scout Technology reduces the amount of time per scout, scouting costs, negotiation costs, and enemy troop sizes of all un-scouted provinces. Any future Advance scouts you unlock will not reduce those provinces you have already scouted.

 

[DeletedUser4778]

@Nevarth, I had a list of the differences but did not calculate the totals so I went back to it and did and I am very disappointed with the results. It seems like such a negligible reduction. Here's the post that I just edited and copied from my Battle Sheet thread:

In case anyone's interested, here are the armies of 2 Steel Provinces, both in Ring 7. There's only a town and two provinces between them. One was scouted in Chapter 4 before the new battle system and the other was scouted just today (Oct 27) in Chapter 5 after completing Advanced Scouts research. I have the same number of provinces as in Chapter 4 which is 84 so I was considered "overscouted" in Chapter 4 but not in Chapter 5.

TOTALS WITH ADVANCED SCOUTS:
6110 steel, 4230 tier2 goods (scrolls & silk), 2090 magic dust, 2417 squad size

TOTALS WITHOUT ADVANCED SCOUTS:
6310 tier1 goods (steel & planks), 4350 tier2 goods (scrolls & silk), 1830 magic dust, 3205

WITH ADVANCED SCOUTS VS. WITHOUT ADVANCED SCOUTS:
-200 tier1 goods, -120 tier2 goods, +260 tier3 goods, -788 squad size
-778 squad size / 8 encounters = -98.5 squads per encounter

DETAILS:

Steel (scouted in Chapter 5 with Advanced Scouts)
1500 steel, 240 silk, 390 dust
410 thieves II, 137 thornrose mages, 68x2 swamp monsters II
= 683 troops, squad size 410
1100 steel, 600 scrolls, 260 dust
243 thieves II, 41 orc warriors, 41x6 swamp monsters II
= 530 troops, squad size 243
740 steel, 970 scrolls, 130 dust
297x2 thieves II, 50 orc warriors, 50x3 swamp monsters II
= 794 troops, squad size 297
370i steel, 730 scrolls, 330 dust
297x4 thieves II, 99 thornrose mages, 50 swamp monsters II
= 1337 troops, squad size 297
930 steel, 480 silk, 200 dust
297 thieves II, 99x3 thornrose mages, 50x2 swamp monsters II = 694 troops, squad size 297
370 steel, 730 scrolls
366x3 thieves II, 89 thornrose mages, 44 orc warriors, 44x2 swamp monsters II
= 1319 troops, squad size 266
480 silk, 520 dust
341x2 thieves II, 114x2 thornrose mages, 57 swamp monsters II
967 troops, squad size 341
1100 steel, 260 dust
266 thieves II, 89 thornrose mages, 44 orc warriors, 44x4 monsters II
= 487 troops, squad size 266

Steel (scouted in Chapter 4; unfortunately, I didn't note the old squad sizes because I'm more concerned with number and composition of troops; the first troop entry is for the old troops and the second is for the new lineup)
1100 steel, 600 scrolls, 260 dust
OLD: 390x3 thieves II, 98 enchantresses, 65x3 swamp monsters II = 1463 troops
NEW: 390x3 thieves II, 130 thornrose mages, 65x3 swamp monsters II
= 1495 troops, squad size 390
1500 steel, 240 silk, 390 dust
OLD: 600 thieves II, 150 enchantresses, 100x2 swamp monsters II = 950 troops
NEW: 600 thieves II, 200 thornrose mages, 100x2 swamp monsters II
= 1000 troops, squad size 600
930 steel, 480 silk, 200 dust
OLD: 355x2 thieves II, 89x2 enchantresses, 59x4 swamp monsters II= 1124 troops
NEW: 355x2 thieves II, 118x2 thornrose mages, 59x4 swamp monsters II
= 1182 troops, squad size 355
370 steel, 730 scrolls
OLD: 390x3 thieves II, 98 knights, 98 enchantresses, 65x2 swamp monsters II = 1496 troops
NEW: 390x3 thieves II, 130 thornrose mages, 65 orc warriors, 65x2 swamp monsters II
= 1495 troops, squad size 390
740 steel, 970 scrolls, 130 dust
OLD: 435x2 thieves II, 109 knights, 73x3 swamp monsters II = 1198 troops
NEW: 435x2 thieves II, 73 orc warriors, 73x3 swamp monsters II
=1162 troops, squad size 435
370 steel, 730 scrolls, 330 dust
OLD: 435x2 thieves II, 109 knights, 109 enchantresses, 73x2 swamp monsters II = 1234 troops
NEW: 435x2 thieves II, 73 orc warriors, 145 thornrose mages, 73x2 swamp monsters II
= 1234 troops, squad size 435
740 steel, 360 scrolls, 130 dust
OLD: 435 thieves II, 109 knights, 109x2 enchantresses, 73x2 swamp monsters II = 762 troops
NEW: 435 thieves II, 73 orc warriors, 145x2 thornrose mages, 73x2 swamp monsters II
=944 troops, squad size 435
560 planks, 240 silk, 390 dust
OLD: 600 thieves II, 150 knights, 150 enchantresses, 100 swamp monsters II = 1000 troops
NEW: 600 thieves II, 100 orc warriors, 200 thornrose mages, 100 swamp monsters II
= 1000 troops, squad size 600

 

[DeletedUser3696]

I'm experiencing the same. I'm just about to open the Main Hall research which only needs 40k of Mana, but the zinger here is to upgrade the MH requires 133k of mana!!! I'm not sure if just 3 weeping willows are going to cut it because of the 10% decay issue. I do have about 50 ghost houses filling in all my nooks and crannies...perhaps I might have to consolidate things to build more willows and increase the rate of mana production, but it's difficult to get a 5x5 space at this moment, especially with only 3 expansions given in this chapter? [186/hr vs 5/hr]

New update just shut us both down. Apparently military is not optional tech!!
I also hadn't realized you need mana for upgrades - it does seem 4 willows will be needed if not more. I have had about 110k with just 3 willows, but that was starting to normalize and stay constant due to decay.

 

[DeletedUser2870]

No, every time they release new tech with an update, it is optional.
But only until the next update. So the stuff that was optional with the last update now has become required stuff. The new stuff thrown in todat will be optional until the next update.

As for the mana, I sold most of my other culture, placed 5 willows and will be adding a 6th, so far, I have no problems with that. (thank heavens...and def team, you did NOT see this remark. No need to make that part completely impossible too)

 

[DeletedUser1016]

New update just shut us both down. Apparently military is not optional tech!!

I know - right! Now another 121kp on research that I just don't need yet....and more ancient wonders...how excited am I....! NOT.

 

[DeletedUser3696]

No, every time they release new tech with an update, it is optional.
But only until the next update. So the stuff that was optional with the last update now has become required stuff. The new stuff thrown in todat will be optional until the next update.

As for the mana, I sold most of my other culture, placed 5 willows and will be adding a 6th, so far, I have no problems with that. (thank heavens...and def team, you did NOT see this remark. No need to make that part completely impossible too)

I think you are mistaken for the training grounds. The upgrade (lvl 5-8) was only introduced 2 weeks ago when the woodelf chapter was released and I cannot remember if it was a dead end tech (optional) or a linked tech.
Currently I have to do it in order to advance in chapter 9. I also have a mortar tech that wasn't there yesterday that looks ominously mandatory to advance (I'll let you know in a day if it's not mandatory).
The two techs in chapter 8 seem to be optional (Orc training grands and Orc Warrior). I'm hoping those are optional, but as you suggest - next update they will be mandatory.

So no matter what I have a mandatory tech that just got moved up 4 chapters and a brand new tech that seems mandatory.

 

[SoggyShorts]

At least there are some techs that are always optional--expansions. We can totally skip a lot of those.....yay?

 

[DeletedUser2870]

I think you are mistaken for the training grounds. The upgrade (lvl 5-8) was only introduced 2 weeks ago when the woodelf chapter was released and I cannot remember if it was a dead end tech (optional) or a linked tech.
Currently I have to do it in order to advance in chapter 9. I also have a mortar tech that wasn't there yesterday that looks ominously mandatory to advance (I'll let you know in a day if it's not mandatory).
The two techs in chapter 8 seem to be optional (Orc training grands and Orc Warrior). I'm hoping those are optional, but as you suggest - next update they will be mandatory.

So no matter what I have a mandatory tech that just got moved up 4 chapters and a brand new tech that seems mandatory.

No, the improved trainingground most definitely was an optional tech at the time it was released. I remember well, because I skipped it to finish 2 other techs I needed much more before I went back and researched them.
And yes, feel free to keep an eye on that mortar-tech. Because sure as heck with the next update it will become a mandatory one.

It's been this way for as long as I remember them introducing techs way back in the tree. Optional until th next update hits (or the next chapter is added, which also is a kind of update).
I just wish they would quit adding all kinds of (often worthless) stuff back in the techtree. It's extremely annoying to have to go back all the time, even though the scrolling back in the tree has become much easier.

@SoggyShorts
Yes...yeah!..except that it mostly seems to be expansions that are optional...duhhhhhh...as if anyone would want to skip those. (Well, Katwijk might, with his strange vision on efficient cities, I get the feeling that he actually would say that as empty a city as possible is max efficiency)

 

[DeletedUser61]

I just wish they would quit adding all kinds of (often worthless) stuff back in the techtree.

I'm totally OK with them fleshing out the content in the earlier chapters. That's where most of the players are located in any case.

It's a bit inconvenient for the advanced players, who are already past that point, BUT things have to be normalized somehow and requiring twice as many points (old + new) for end game advancement is part of the price that you must pay if you like to hang out on the bleeding edge.

 

[Mykan]

I just wish they would quit adding all kinds of (often worthless) stuff back in the techtree

Depends on your view of worthless which is likely subjective based on race/era. Not too fussed on cerberus for my late era towns but on those in era 2 with only light melee and light range units the cerberus is a blessing. Similarly as a Human with no heavy range unit the mortar tech is also wonderful.

Yes I do have some I am not fussed on and time them to least effect me but just saying "one persons junk is another persons treasure". I am just grateful we didn't get them all at once and spend months doing nothing but the new techs.

 

[DeletedUser2870]

@Katwijk

I will just say that you and I apparently have a VERY different definition of 'normalised'.

As for liking to hang out on the bleeding edge as you so nicely put it, no, I do not. I just have no choice in this game.

And yes, most of the players are in the beginning...hmmm...how come? Oh yes, they have been chasing away their existing customers. But don't worry, by messing up some more, they will manage to chase away those new ones too.


@Mykan

yes, I'm glad they didn't dump it at all too. On that aspect I'm in full agreement.
However, there have been a lot of more units introduced and they're nothing but mirror-images of already existing units, bringing nothing new to the game. Except being required tech to research to slow players down again.

The cerberus may be a blessing for some, sure. But 3 different buildings sharing 1 queue? Come on.

And what I personally find extremely annoying is that it's been the elven-players who have been hit disproportionally hard by all the changes.
The treant 2 lost it's special ability AND a lot of the punch, at the same time being much more vulnerable. (where the knight gained a distance-strikeback)
The sorceress lost power AND range AND got a high initiative making her either stand in front of her own troops to be slaughtered or having to skip the first turn. But the priests have been buffed.
With the mortar, humans got a long range unit available, where elves have not. And have no unit able to effectively deal with them.

 

[SoggyShorts]

Imagine if they added an expansion to the tech tree... just one, almost anywhere. Even if it doesn't fit their idea of city size balance they should do it just for the good publicity. I'd love to see a thread or 3 on the forums titled "Thanks INNO" without a "/sarcasm" in it.