Feedback Quick and Dirty Summary of Ancient Wonder Changes

[Dhurrin]

Ok, so pardon my ignorance, but how do you get to have over 4k in KP,s? Is there something I have missed?

I don't really have any good way to spend them. I am building up my AWs, but even so, I spend fewer KPs than I collect. In fact, the amount has taken a dip from what it was as I haven't rebuilt everything yet. Before the change to the AWs came to the live worlds I spent a lot of them on upgrading them before that change hit.

So I forego the 24 daily KPs, but other sources still add KPs to my KP bar.
I get 7 KPs/day from my Tome of Secrets AW
I get 7 KPs per day from my Spire Library AW
I get about 24 KPs every day from a range of evolving buildings
Every week I get about 400-450 KPs from the Tourney.
Apart from that there are KPs from crafting, the chests from the MA at times, events ect.

Don't forget I'm an endgame player, sitting at the end of tyhe techtree, so there aren't going any to research. AWs are the only place I can put them (using swaps) and I'm kinda running out of AWs I want to up. Which means I've slowed down in doing so, just to make sure I can keep doing that as a part of regular play and interaction with other players

 

[Dhurrin]

I invest all my KP and Ancient KP into Wonders. I've actually used resources too to buy KP for Wonders when that builds up, and always gold, and most Gold instants too. I don't produce Ascended Goods now, being end of Ch21, and Sentient Goods only because I cater the Spire. I do gain some Ascended Goods from Evolving buildings, so trade those to whoever needs it daily. I don't see the point of hoarding KP or resources, when they could be better used in Wonders. I've got a couple now to lvl 35, and keep adding new ones from time to time.
View attachment 16941View attachment 16942

There is a total of 40 different AWs so far (end of chap 21). I have 36 AWs up in my city, so I am not exactly skipping out on AWs. The other 4 are just not too interesting to me.
21 of my AWs are already at lvl 35.
Out of the 14 others, 11 are at lvl 31 or higher, 1 is at lvl 21 and the last 2 are nearing lvl 20. If I wanted, I probably could, even with the new AW upgrade requirements, get the 11 that are above lvl 31 to lvl 35 in a few weeks (long upgrade times and I don't want to waste time-instants on doing so).
But why would I do so? Once I get all my AWs up to 35, what am I going to do with the KPs then? I work pretty actively on the KP swaps in our FS, though I have slowed down a bit, because I see no reason to rush them all to 35. The KP-swaps at least keep me involved with the other players.
Besides, the total # of AW levels (in my case 1.166) does increase the Spire difficulty and yes, I do notice that. So why rush and make that harder on myself?

And yes, I too have in the past bought KPs. Right now, other than for quests, I don't really see a need for that.

 

[Goldeeloks]

I invest all my KP and Ancient KP into Wonders. I've actually used resources too to buy KP for Wonders when that builds up, and always gold, and most Gold instants too. I don't produce Ascended Goods now, being end of Ch21, and Sentient Goods only because I cater the Spire. I do gain some Ascended Goods from Evolving buildings, so trade those to whoever needs it daily. I don't see the point of hoarding KP or resources, when they could be better used in Wonders. I've got a couple now to lvl 35, and keep adding new ones from time to time.
View attachment 16941View attachment 16942

How do you have the space for all of this? Asking for a friend. (Me!)

 

[iamthouth]

I have 19 wonders now, but have been slow and careful to add them, focussing on maximising them instead of adding more. I still don't know what is the best strategy, I feel sometimes that players who keep levelling each one at the same pace have done it right. I've only ever bought premium expansions with diamonds won in the game, so have to be efficient in layout and careful when using any space. I've got 152 expansions now, out of a max of 179 at present.
ElvenArchitect layout here.

 

[Count Rupert]

I think we need to rethink the leveling of wonders. It used to be automatic that once we placed a wonder we would work at maxing it out. Now with most of the benefit frontloaded (75% of the total benefit is reached at level 16), maybe it shouldn't be so automatic that every wonder we place be maxed out. The cost per benefit received is going to increase as you level up. At what point does the cost to level outweigh the benefit? Players are going to need to decide where that is.

 

[Pheryll]

I think we need to rethink the leveling of wonders. It used to be automatic that once we placed a wonder we would work at maxing it out. Now with most of the benefit frontloaded (75% of the total benefit is reached at level 16), maybe it shouldn't be so automatic that every wonder we place be maxed out. The cost per benefit received is going to increase as you level up. At what point does the cost to level outweigh the benefit? Players are going to need to decide where that is.

Compare two different wonders at level 21. The victory springs doubles the amount of troops produced, and the vallorian school of sorcery doubles the amount of enchantments produced. Both are at 5/6 of their stated benefit, but the calculation of their benefit is different. For the victory springs 100% is 5/6 of the 120% bonus of level 35. For the school of sorcery 50% is 5/6 of the 60% reduction which would translate to 100% being 2/3 of the 150% bonus of level 35 (1/0.5 = 2, and 1/0.4 = 2.5). In both cases 21 levels is 60% of the levels, but the vallorian school of sorcery causes the smaller increases of the later levels to better flow as a linear progression, while for the victory springs it is diminishing returns.

 

[mikeledo]

I still will work to max out my AWS. I have always built AWS of lower levels first because it is more level help/KP.

 

[Dhurrin]

How do you have the space for all of this? Asking for a friend. (Me!)

Actually, several AWs are great space-savers. The Golden Abyss is the best example, but the Mountain Halls as well: they will at later levels outperfom multiple magical residences, let alone regular ones.
The Prosperity Tower can easily outperform some magical workshops, especially if one gets enough PoP spells from the tourney.
Both the Shrine of Shrewy Shrooms and the Dwarven Bulwark easily outperform multiple armories.
So by placing these AWs one saves space. And often resources as one doesn't need to build and upgrade a lot of other buildings. They also do not use pop and culture, which means those can be used for something else.
How much a benefit a certain AW is depends on the player and his/her style of play and how often one logs on. If you log in regularly, the PT is much better than the Endless Excavation, but if one only logs in 2x a day or so the Excavation is better.

 

[Dhurrin]

How do you have the space for all of this? Asking for a friend. (Me!)

Just as 2 examples, main city and a smaller city.

In my main city, my (maxed) GA outperforms 5 magical residences, and those already have additional pop from a maxed out Thermal Springs, so without that it would be outperforming 6 magical residences. The GA is 3x3= 9 squares, 5 magical residences in chap 21 would mean 5x (5x5)=125 squares.
A chap 21 magical workshop (7x4) provides 92K supplies in a 3 hour run (+culture bonus) (+ PoP spell bonus if you spell it)
A maxed PT (5x4) provides 1.320K supplies every 3 hours. AND it increases both the effect and the duration of the PoP spell. So it outperforms multiple magical workshops and makes the rest far more effective.
A chap 21 armory increases the training size by 1.200 at 5x6. My maxed Dwarven Bulwark at 7x4 increases the training size by 19.260, (so about 16x as much! and the Shrine of Shrewy Shrooms will now do the same at 5x4).
Now are mine maxed out, but the positive effect on saving space already starts pretty soon, say lvl 6 and up and from lvl 11 and up it will be very noticable.

Other example, for a much smaller city;
Lvl 15 armory increases your training size by 40, at 4x4. At lvl 16 it would be 50, at 5x4.
A lvl 1 Dwarven Bulwark increases my trainingsize by 84, at 7x4. At lvl 2 it would be 126, at lvl 3 189 (and that is not counting on extra researched Squadsize techs as that is what it depends on. But it will greatly outperform the armories, which use a lot of pop and culture. My goal is to bring it to lvl 5, so I can delete 2 or 3 of my 5 armories.
A lvl 17 regular workshop produces 3.808 supplies / 3 hours. A lvl 1 PT (if I could place it, I haven't unlocked that yet, as that city just started fairies) produces 3.420 supplies / 3 hours, so already does about as much, but doesn't use pop or culture and will improve the effect of the PoP spell on remaining workshops.
A lvl 17 regular residence at 2x4 provides 470 pop. A lvl 15 GA provides 2.521 pop for me (depends on the amount of needed pop), so already outperforms 5 regular residences.

(edited to get rid of some of the annoying typo's that creep in. And I swear they creep in afterwards!)

 

[MichaelMichael]

My strategy remains the same. If an AW helps me (e.g it is more space efficient as outlined by Dhurrin), I build it. And frankly, that means build most of them. So far that is 32 AWs (i.e. most of them):

• 9 are complete (lvl 35: GA, Needles, GBS, MH, PT, FA, ETC, VS, Simia Sapiens),
• 10 are near complete (lvl 26-34): Sanctuary, BTG, HF, D Abbey, Temple of T, Lighthouse, Timewarp, TS of Y, S of SS, D Arc
• 5 are substantial upgraded (lvl 16-24): EE, WR, Maze, Scout's T, Sunset Tower, VS of S
• 7 are moderately upgraded (lvl 6-14): DB, Pyramid, S of C, Oracle of Fortune, T of S, VST, MLPAS
• 1 is just started (lvl 1-4): T of E

At all times I have 3-5 AWs that I constantly upgrade and most are in the Near Complete category. Why? because the most important AW for my strategy are priority items that have multiplicative improvement. Take care of your bread and butter strategies. The better you are at what you do REALLY well, the higher your overall performance.

The current AW (not near complete) that I prioritize is Valorian School of Sorcery (VS of S) with secondary priority to my Sanctuary & Shrine of the Shrewdy Shrooms (S of SS). I see this chapter 21 AW as a game changer. The VS of S will allow more permanent spells on more buildings to improve performance without additional space. That is my #1 priority. Most of my complete and near complete either make my troops stronger or produce more goods. Most obviously missing from my list are buildings that add to score. Scorekeeping is interesting, but I would always prefer resources. I am top 10 in the Tourney every week, yet I rank outside the top 100 by score.

Troop production and effectiveness are critical for fighting. Wholesaling is the driver for catering, as it produces substantially more goods than manufactories ever will. The goal is to use space effectively to accomplish your goals. My goal is effective resources. My measure of that effectiveness is Tourney score each week (with spire topped). Others have different objectives, but that is mine.

Residences are whatever I need to support other buildings. Managing space and population are two measure of the same thing. I could say that culture is the same, except it has never been an issue for me because a large surplus is required to wholesale well - I live with an 800-1000% culture bonus.

Beyond population, you have to decide your mix between Workshops/Manufactures to Armories. Workshops & Manufactories also need to be balanced to produce maximum catering ability. My mix is tilted to Workshops because you can wholesale more goods with far fewer resources than manufactories. The mix tilts to wholesaling because trades for your boosted goods can supplement manufactory production.

The mix between Goods to Armories is a bit more complex as it goes to the choice of Cater or Fight. I am currently shifting to more fight, but I do both pretty extensively. Most of the first 30 provinces is Fight. After that, fight drops off and above 50 provinces it is 90/10 cater to fight. The shift is really linked to my AW development - more spells means more goods from manufacturies (more with spells). Soon, I will have few manufactories producing more output. Then I can have more armories.

My strategy will ultimately have EE, MM and PP permanently on all buildings that can take those spells. Today, I am at 90% (101 of 113 buildings) with permanent spells.

 

[BrinDarby]

Is it possible to go far in Elvenar without
any AWs ??

 

[iamthouth]

Possibly. I started Aug 2018 and was very conservative early on, adding slowly until I reached end of game at Ch20, and later when Ch21 was launched and completed, I added more. I'm not saying that was the right strategy, just what I ended up doing.
None? You'd struggle on space and production time I think, so will add time, but for your long slow strategy it might work.

Order of built	Wonder	First added	Chapter when added	Current lvl
1	Tome of Secrets	Before 26/08/19	lvl 7 chapter 8	__35
2	Golden Abyss	Before 26/08/19	lvl 12 chapter 8	__35
3	Mountain Halls	Before 28/05/20	likely chapter 8, lvl 11 ch 11	__35
4	Endless Excavation	01/03/21	14	__35
5	Timewarp	22/05/21	15	__35
6	Shrine of Shrewdy Shrooms	16/07/21	16	33
7	Thermal Springs of Youth	31/07/21	16	__35
8	Vortex of Storage	06/11/21	17	32
9	Blooming Trading Guild	17/01/22	17	31
10	Sunset Towers	02/03/22	18	32
11	Temple of Spirits	31/07/22	19	__35
12	Tree of Enlightenment	23/10/22	20	31
13	Prosperity Towers	25/05/23	20	31
14	Antique Shop	23/09/23	21	21
15	Sanctuary	27/11/23	21	24
16	Needles	27/11/23	21	16
17	Simia Sapiens	27/11/23	21	16
18	Elvenar Trade Centre	03/02/24	21	11
19	Dwarven Bulwark	21/02/24	21	5

 

[BrinDarby]

Well, @iamthouth ,
I listen to @Dhurrin and others, I follow Henroo's
city..... and Im sitt'n here thinking, hmmmmm.
If thats the case, 1 each bldgs replace Residences,
Workshops, Armories, CultureOnly, Coins, Tools,
and Population. Why have a whole city if 5-6
bldgs replace 75-80% of a city ?

Just a L2 MartialMonastary is like 24k Culture.
thats silly numbers, to me. ( for a CH6 person )

 

[Dhurrin]

Well, @iamthouth ,
I listen to @Dhurrin and others, I follow Henroo's
city..... and Im sitt'n here thinking, hmmmmm.
If thats the case, 1 each bldgs replace Residences,
Workshops, Armories, CultureOnly, Coins, Tools,
and Population. Why have a whole city if 5-6
bldgs replace 75-80% of a city ?

Just a L2 MartialMonastary is like 24k Culture.
thats silly numbers, to me. ( for a CH6 person )

You won't be able to replace everything by AWs. But they sure do help using the available space more efficiently.
If I only have to have 20 residences instead of 30, because 2 AWs that together take up room for 3 residences it means the room for 7 residences can be used for something else.
Some of the AWs greatly increase the output of factories or workshops, so again it saves space, but they do not eliminate the need for other buildings.
Others increase your fighting power, which helps getting more resources from the tourneys.

But AWs have as a disadvantage that they do reduce your ranking.

Most obviously missing from my list are buildings that add to score. Scorekeeping is interesting, but I would always prefer resources. I am top 10 in the Tourney every week, yet I rank outside the top 100 by score.

I agree, score is not important for me. But since the change I dropped over 650.000 points in culture. So I have placed the Throne now, which never interested me. Not for the ranking, but as a way to gain extra culture in as limited space as people.

 

[Ravmin]

Why have a whole city if 5-6
bldgs replace 75-80% of a city ?

This is the basis for my mini city build on Ceravyn. Currently in chapter 13, 33 unplaced expansions, and only a select few wonders that match my non-military play choice. So far it has gone quite smoothly.

In all actuality the size of a city doesn't really matter. As long as you are making efficient use of the space, you will reach a point of diminishing returns.

 

[BrinDarby]

Just a L2 MartialMonastary is like 24k Culture.
thats silly numbers, to me. ( for a CH6 person )

eArchitect lied to me, Henroo set me straight.
Its more like 2k , not 24k and at L4 CH6. (MM Cul)

Hmm , ook @Dhurrin , gotcha.

 

[Kraken52]

@Kraken52 , --IF-- you ignore the daily free KP,
then you can easily let any earned KP build up.
Thats how ppl get 4k , or 11k in my case built up.

Ahhh, thank you...

 

[Dominionofgod]

Why the Change? Following recent adjustments to Ancient Wonders, we observed a noticeable gap between the required and obtained Spell Fragments. While we had plans to address this gap through improved Event and Spire rewards, we've decided not to keep you waiting and are making this enhancement right away. Your feedback is invaluable, and we're committed to ensuring a more balanced and enjoyable gameplay experience!

Just so i got this straight...
1. Inno thought ppl were progressing to fast in aw's, and instead of limiting the massive amount of kp rewards... they change the upgrade costs for CC and frags.
2. The CC and frags are no where near close to being available enough to support this change. (They wernt even close enough before this change.)
3. Inno plans to up/adjust the amount of CC and frags available.
4. Before they can, inno decides to rework the CC and frag cost to lower it for new and mid level aw's.

Am I the only one seeing the faulty logic here?

 

[Silver Lady]

@Dominionofgod Inno is only adjusting the frag cost NOT CC and NOT RR.

 

[Dominionofgod]

@Dominionofgod Inno is only adjusting the frag cost NOT CC and NOT RR.

so its a nearly worthless adjustment then...