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    Your Elvenar Team

Reduce the base tournament encounter timer

hoopity

Well-Known Member
Suggestion
Reduce the base time that we wait between rounds of the tourney from 16 hours to 14 hours.

Premise
Getting sufficient sleep is important for health, and in the US (and yes, the EU) large portions of the population are chronically under-sleeping. For some of us, that problem is Elvenar and in particular, the tournament timer. The current 16-hour timer requires anyone who wants to complete all 6 stages of a given tourney province to sacrifice their sleep and play in very strict time-windows at least once or twice per week, every week, indefinitely. When the tourney was first introduced (over six years ago?) perhaps nobody imagined the issue or that players would continue to do this for years at a time, but it's been long enough, and it's such an easy change to make.

How do we know that this is a big deal? Well, you added the Timewarp AW at the end of Chapter 14 that reduces the tourney wait time. When it comes to game elements that players unlock through the course of play, there is not a bigger quality of life improvement than unlocking the Timewarp. Without a spending a single drop of extra KP, a player at the end of the Constructs chapter can place the Timewarp and get -12% to the tourney wait time, bringing the timer down to 14 hours and 5 minutes. Suddenly, that player can now wake up at 7am, do the tourney, and still have a reasonable amount of time to do another round in the tourney between 9-10pm before going to sleep. Only a few levels invested in the wonder will bring the total reduction to 20-24%, where life gets easy with a ~13 hour wait time.

Rebuttal to Common Criticisms
"But the Timewarp is already in the game, so this problem is solved"
Players don't unlock the timewarp until they've completed Chapter 14 -- even burning through the chapters quickly, most players will take 1-2 years to get that far. In the meantime, they're stuck with the punitive game design choice.

"You can purchase a Polar Bear as soon as you have an MA which makes this a non-issue"
True, you can get a level 1 Polar Bear fairly quickly if you know about it. But without spending half a years' worth of artifacts evolving it, you are stuck with only a 12% reduction, which costs you 1 Pet Food per week!

"Just use timers"
Everyone uses their timers differently, and not everyone is awash in timers from consistently topping the Spire. I don't think this is a strong enough objection, though I admit, for people who are really dedicated to the tourney, it is an option. With that said, it's a tremendous pain using the (desktop) interface to use timers on dozens of provinces.

"This will devalue the Timewarp AW -- I have a lot levels on mine!"
True, the Timewarp would be made somewhat less important. But, it would still be useful for getting the tourney timer into even shorter ranges. You can still save on pet food when you get your timer down to 5-7 hours between rounds and do 3 rounds per day. You still benefit from being more flexible during events when you can save tourney provinces for the right time to complete a quest. You can still get the 0-hour wait in conjunction with the Polar Bear and double-dip on expiring troop boosts. And of course, it still has the sentient production boost!

"14 hours is a gross number, but 16 hours is such a clean fraction of a day"
I agree, and presumably so did the original authors of the game, who stuck everything on very similar timers. Nowadays, though, the game is filled with odd settlement production timers with all manner of duration, so I don't think this matters.

"This goes against the spirit of the design of the game"
Only Inno can decide this, and they've made pretty large changes to the tourney before...

Pros
Happier players who are less prone to burn-out, especially in the first year (critical for player retention)
An increase in the pool of players willing to compete on tourney ranking (more engagement)
Doing the right thing for the long-term physical well-being of your player-base (more money)
Presumably a trivial change to implement and test

Cons
People would be less willing to spend Diamonds ($) on opening up the next tourney round. But I have to ask, how many people could that possibly be?
 

Alram

Flippers just flip
I don't think this would increase competitive tourney participation. People who think the tourney isn't worth losing sleep over, using pet food, using time boosts, and diamonds when necessary are not likely to change their minds over a 2 hour reduction.
 

hvariidh gwendrot

Well-Known Member
i fall in to the use polar bear+ timewarp camp, and make it sometthing to accomplish for the player, the game is a beautiful puzzle to figure out why take the fun of figuring things out, out of the game? you've got a few workarounds in your own post, + players can do a few extra provinces per round too as that would mean less rounds to get a proper score in tournaments, and i think those pros might be a bit overstated, but then again maybe not, i'm just speaking for me
 

BrinDarby

Well-Known Member
Players don't unlock the timewarp until they've completed Chapter 14 -- even burning through the chapters quickly, most players will take 1-2 years to get that far. In the meantime, they're stuck with the punitive game design choice.
Sooo true...

Also consider that Online games normally ( not inno ) cater
to the time zone of the server/playerbase , not staff ... worse
case senario, they have 1 employee on duty 24/7 for serious
problems.....

What I'm saying is , Tourn goes live for me @ 11am ( mst ),
thats 1pm est , but like 6-7pm german time. Most events go
live around 3am, yet again, thats 8-9am german time....

This is Not the german server, so then why are all the starting
times adjusted for Germany ??? thats cause Inno is too cheap
to employ 1 person 24/7, and match Game time events to thier
corresponding market time.....

Tourn starts on Tues, so anyone who has a J.O.B. or a life...
prolly does a round in the evening USA time, they get 5
rounds barely depending on how soon fri night they do
the 4th round.

US server , UK server, German server, Japan server......
doesn't matter, the game should be optimized for the
time zones it will be played in....... not optimized for
Inno to only admin it from 1 timezone, 8 hrs/day.
 

ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
I agree with Soggy. I do think a small reduction at the beginning chapters will help smaller player and fellowships. If you get your smaller players doing more rounds you get closer to the "10 chest" level and that's a positive for everybody in the fellowship.

I also agree with @BrinDarby that the US servers should start and end things on US time rather than German. It wouldn't be that hard to switch and in these days of remote control access from anywhere having a support staff member two in the US, sleeping on North American time, would not be that much of a cost. You could, of course, just lay off some German....LOL! (Please, don't do that!), or send them to the US. Places like Wyoming are quite cheap compared to the the rest of the US and/or Europe.

AJ
 

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
I don't think it's necessary to reduce the value of existing tournament speed-ups, just have more options. Give people options so they have some agency. Maybe add some speed ups to other buildings
  • Expiring building: Enlightened Tournament Scout. Lasts five days and reduce tournament cool down by 10% (or a flat one hour) with multiples stacking
  • War Bear: a new edition of the Polar Bear that stacks with it if fed to give a 20+20=40% reduction, or a larger version of the polar bear at 4x4 that gives a greater speed reduction than polar bear, either stacking with it or replacing it.
 

Lelanya

Scroll-Keeper, Keys to the Gems
I don't think it's necessary to reduce the value of existing tournament speed-ups, just have more options. Give people options so they have some agency. Maybe add some speed ups to other buildings
  • Expiring building: Enlightened Tournament Scout. Lasts five days and reduce tournament cool down by 10% (or a flat one hour) with multiples stacking
  • War Bear: a new edition of the Polar Bear that stacks with it if fed to give a 20+20=40% reduction, or a larger version of the polar bear at 4x4 that gives a greater speed reduction than polar bear, either stacking with it or replacing it.
Did you read my proposal for a Sun Bear? Maybe your proposal could complement your idea.
 

Ashrem

Oh Wise One
Did you read my proposal for a Sun Bear? Maybe your proposal could complement your idea.
I'm not sure they'd be keen to overlap effects between Spire and Tournament, so they probably need to be distinct.

Unless we want to propose something like a "Construct Bear" which simply speeds up all timers in game for X hours (or scalable depending on evolutions.) All clocks, from Coins and supplies, through goods and troops to mana and Guest race supplies or what-have-you, in any building running a timer.

So feeding an Evolution one Construct Bear causes all timers to advance 30 minutes, Evolution ten feeding causes all timers to advance 5 hours. (or start at 20 minutes and level 10 takes you to 3:20 ahead.
 

Genefer

Well-Known Member
There are apparently more options to reduce the tournament cooldown duration than I was aware of. Unfortunately, these buildings are not sitting on a shelf available for purchase. If they were from an event that occurred prior to a player entering the game, which means it has to be included in another event or offered in the MA to craft the base & Artifacts, or the Artifacts have to be available in the Spire, and the Spire loves to give out artifacts for buildings I already have, but for a building I want very few.

Yes, this is a solution for those that have them - as is the Time Warp for those far enough into the game to build it.

I feel the author of the topic is concerned with the duration for low level players - who cannot yet build the Time Warp and were unable to participate in the events offering these pets.


The simple answer is complete more encounters in fewer rounds, and I think this would actually be in the best interest for younger cities. Until the past couple chapters Round 6 did not hold much value for me, and round 5 is nice for the kp, but rounds 1 & 4 have always been of more value than any other for me.

To meet the 1600 points required to pay the players portion of a 10-chest tournament & what is earned.

6 Rounds of 6 Provinces
84 Relics
40 kp
6 Runes
6 Broken Shards
4 Power of Provision
4 Ensorcelled Endowments
4 Magical Manufacturing


5 Rounds of 8 Provinces
100 Relics
49 kp
5 Runes
7 Brokn shards
6 Power of Provision
5 Ensorcelled Endowments
2 Magical Manufacturing


4 Rounds of 11 Provinces
124 Relics
52 kp
7 Runes
7 Broken Shards
8 Power of Provision
8 Ensorcelled Endowments
0 Magical Manufacturing


3 Rounds of 15 Provinces
135 Relics
60 kp
9 Runes
6 Broken Shards
12 Power of Provision
3 Ensorcelled Endowments
0 Magical Manufacturing


2 Rounds of 25 Provinces
167 Relics
98 kp
2 Runes
4 Broken Shards
19 Power of Provision
3 Ensorcelled Endowments
0 Magical Manufacturing


1 Round of 54 Provinces
198 Relics
9 kp
1 Rune
2 Broken Shards
48 Power of Provision
0 Ensorcelled Endowments
0 Magical Manufacturing


3 or 4 rounds - if the player has unlocked enough provinces - is a better deal than 6 rounds of 6. Round 5 & 6 are great when you have 15, 20, .... Ancient Wonders to build, upgrade, & pay out Rune Stage upgrades, but f you don't - round 6 is a bit of a waste in my opinion.

The cost of Pet Food if the player has the fire would only be 2.

In light of the many changes that should be made - this is not where I would prefer their effort spent.
 

hoopity

Well-Known Member
Thank you all for the replies! I didn't think this idea would be a huge winner, but I'm a little surprised by the amount of push-back. Here are my responses:

@hvariidh gwendrot I can understand not wanting to take away a sense of achievement from new players. And I would agree, if there weren't already so many ways to get a feeling of accomplishment: finishing Chapter V and moving on to guest races, building your first AW, leveling your first AW to 30, topping the spire, earning Gold Spire rewards with your FS, completing an event quest-line, acheiving Silver/Gold league in an event, completing all 3 phases of an FA, getting 10-chests in a tournament with your FS, unlocking the free 10 daily KP via FS perks, completing all encounters on the first page of the tourney, replacing all your residences or workshops with their Magic equivalent, and on and on and on. I don't think reducing the tourney timer from 16h to 14h really takes anything away from new players.

@BrinDarby While I agree that having a US clock would be more comfortable for many elements of game play, this would almost certainly be a large technical lift for Inno (also likely to create a perpetual stream of bugs and unintended consequences). I don't think they're likely to bite on something like this.

@Ashrem Adding a new pet-food using building or expiring building doesn't really address what the change I'm suggesting is aimed at doing. I simply want all players to complete two rounds in one day every week without having to wreck their sleep schedule. Your suggestions are really just extensions of the solutions that are currently in place.

@Genefer My proposal is not about newer players earning enough points to participate in 10-chest Fellowship, it's about addressing the need for sleep, which is in contrast with the game's design that creates a psychological urgency and need around "completing" a tourney province to all 6 encounters, but doesn't allow for enough time to reasonably do so, especially for months on end. I'm sure when the tourney was first added back in 2016 (2017?) they thought this would maybe drive diamond sales. But the game is much older, much deeper, and perhaps retains players for much longer time-spans than they had originally designed around. Simply put, I want players of all chapters to not feel the unhealthy pull to screw with their schedule to complete all 6 encounters in a province.

@Genefer In regard to your second point about where developers spend their effort -- this is likely as simple as changing a single variable akin to tournament_encounter_cooldown_timer from 16 hours to 14 hours. No new systems, no new art assets, no new mechanics, no new items, toggles, buttons, or widgets!
 

Iyapo

Personal Conductor
3 or 4 rounds - if the player has unlocked enough provinces - is a better deal than 6 rounds of 6.
I do not want to derail this thread, but you should include in your post that going out more tents to fewer rounds massively increases the cost of clearing tournament rounds. 6 to 6 is the absolute cheapest way to get 1600 points in the tournaments.

@hoopity I agree that the current schedule is really awkward and support any method of correction. A straightforward change or a new building. The Polar bear works even unevolved so I don't see Inno going for it, but I fully support the suggestion anyway!
 

elvenbee

Well-Known Member
I do not want to derail this thread, but you should include in your post that going out more tents to fewer rounds massively increases the cost of clearing tournament rounds. 6 to 6 is the absolute cheapest way to get 1600 points in the tournaments.
My uncaffeinated brain is struggling... so if I do 24 tents, but only 4 rounds on each, it'll cost me more? It'd be better to cut down the # of tents & do more rounds on each tent?
 

Iyapo

Personal Conductor

Genefer

Well-Known Member
Since I posted I have been trying to understand how decreasing the cooldown from 16 to 14 hours will eliminate sleep deprivation - for those players that are setting an alarm to play the tournament. Isn't there a built-in buffer - if you started the moment the Tournament begins, and the end of the cooldown all six rounds can be completed in 80 hours - 3 days & 8hrs, is that correct? How many hours in the tournament?

I just realized I do not know the start & end time of the Tournament lol - I love the tournament, but not enough to know when it begins - certainly not to set an alarm.

Clearly, I do not know the exact number of hours, but it seems there is already a buff that can be used to personalize the tournament schedule to avoid sleep deprivation - for those inclined to set an alarm. Rather than begin when the Tournament begins - if I began at 2pm pacific. - my time.

Round 1: Tuesday - 2 pm
16-hr
Round 2: Wednesday - 6 am
16-hr
Round 3: Wednesday - 10 pm
16-hr
Round 4: Thursday - 2pm
16-hr
Round 5: Friday - 6 am
16-hr
Round 6: Friday - 10 pm
Done

If I began at 3 pm - Tuesday - done 11 pm Friday - 4 pm - 12 am Saturday.

Notice the nice 8hr blocks also

My point is there is a buffer already in place that you can use to create your own schedule - to avoid losing sleep.

I do not see how a reduction in the cooldown is even necessary - there is already wiggle room and a player who is bent on completing all 6 rounds we'll actually use the buffer to create their own schedule and if they are not willing to take the time and are unable to complete 6 rounds, well I guess it wasn't really all that important.

In other words - If they are losing sleep - it is because they have not created their own schedule, and that's on the player.


As for effort to make an unnecessary change - to change a variable would draw their attention away from other projects that might actually be useful.
 

Genefer

Well-Known Member
do not want to derail this thread, but you should include in your post that going out more tents to fewer rounds massively increases the cost of clearing tournament rounds. 6 to 6 is the absolute cheapest way to get 1600 points in the tournaments.

Yes, it is cheaper -, but if the concern is a combination of sleep deprivation and a FS Tournament point commitment than adding a couple provinces for fewer rounds is a way to both sleep & earn the points.

If the player is losing sleep, because they love the tournament, they are not stopping at 6 of 6.

and if 4 of 11 is too costly - 5 & 8 is very cheap too
 

crackie

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, Buddy's #1 Fan
"You can purchase a Polar Bear as soon as you have an MA which makes this a non-issue"
True, you can get a level 1 Polar Bear fairly quickly if you know about it. But without spending half a years' worth of artifacts evolving it, you are stuck with only a 12% reduction, which costs you 1 Pet Food per week!
A level 1 Polar gets you very close to your arbitrary 14hrs mark and if you want to do serious tourney, you’d have to manage pet food anyway. To say it costs you 1 Pet Food is not a great argument as then, should we say we get military strengthening for free too bc the benefit of Fire Phoenix isn’t it’s portal profit/coin rain but it’s feed effect. That will cost you at least a Pet Food a week. By your reasoning, maybe we should get those benefits for free too. Why not recovery bonus from Twilight without pet food as well? See slope? Slippery be it! Besides that there is Timewarp as everyone already pointed out, tourney is also completely optional to do, which means doing 0 rounds, let alone 6 rounds. Hence, losing sleep is optional too.
 
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