• Dear forum visitor,

    It looks as though you have not registered for a forum account, or are not signed in. In order to participate in current discussions or create new threads, you will need to register for a forum account by clicking on the link below.

    Click here to register for a forum account!

    If you already have a forum account, you can simply click on the 'Log in' button at the top right of your forum screen.

    Your Elvenar Team

Release notes version 1.7

DeletedUser2736

Guest
What a silly selection of comments. :)

What does Hay Day have to do with anything. I thought we were not supposed to post links to non-Innogames games on the forum anyway.

What does having a programming background have to do with knowing Elvenar's schedule. I'm assuming only employee's of Innogames are party to their time table, whether they are programmers, managers, marketers or whatever.

The basis of comparison of perceived effort can be made by players among the games that said players play. The comparison can be made about how buggy their releases are, how quickly they fix bugs, and the helpfulness of support.

Trusting advice from student programmers and forum mods are probably equally laughable, I'll stick to the opinions of the experienced programmers.

My tinfoil hat protects me from falling skies. ;)
 

DeletedUser627

Guest
I'm going to be blunt. The sky is NOT falling.

Given the blunt tone of many of my remarks, I can scarcely fault a blunt reply, can I? But I'll admit to being puzzled by "the sky is not falling" - I wasn't predicting doom and gloom. Is it you who are worried about the future?

You rebut my comments with "you have no clue whether the development of Elvenar is ahead of schedule, on-schedule, or behind schedule". So I'll repeat what I wrote - a list of facts. Does one need qualifications to list straightforward facts about the release process? I said:

Major misjudgments from the outset - without subsequent apologies nor correction. They misjudged player retention and based everything around neighborhoods. Then they started reacting - introducing Fellowships, trying to "correct" one thing after another, belatedly inserting elements into early game play that should have been there from the beginning. Feeling it necessary to add the Magic Academy - a "major game element" that somehow they couldn't envision in their initial strategy?

Your next point:

By your own admission you don't have a programming background....you likewise don't have any basis for judging the quality nor appropriateness of the programming effort AS compared to the rest of the gaming industry.

Did I compare Elvenar to the rest of the gaming industry? Hmmm...wasn't my comment only about the one other game I play?

As to a programming background, I tend to defer to others - there are often players here who have much more specific experience to contribute. My own programming experience is pretty limited - a CS minor and a senior robotics project. It's this experience that influences my opinion of the Elvenar process. For our project we worked with Cargill programmers; they had an enormous robotics project in the works, and my professor gave us 3 small subroutines to complete for them. As students, they gave us access to the flow charts, etc - and I just fell in love with the process. We certainly had it drilled into us that coding is only as successful as the pre-planning.

With Elvenar, we don't have access to the planning - we only see from the front-end. And we often see substantial changes being introduced - some have been pre-planned, but others are specifically introduced as revisions/corrections. One doesn't need to be qualified in order to ask, "why did Elvenar need this many revisions?"

Some of the causes for revision are just jaw-dropping. The neighborhood debacle is an epic Fail. This is what I had in mind when I wrote
I know would-be game designers whose ramblings-over-beer-after-class had a more cohesive structure than we've seen here.
This is a use of hyperbole to make a point - not a statement that I'm seeking "advice". The point being: the professional game designers here were so short-sighted that they structured the game around neighborhoods - and shockingly are continuing to do so via Tournaments. This failure to calculate retention probabilities wouldn't be acceptable in a university-level project, so it's a remarkably telltale error for a team of experienced professionals to make.

Even so, I'd prefer to just say "to err is human" and stop harping. That would be simple, if they had realized the mistake, and then set about correcting it straight away with a modest little acknowledgement. Instead, we're 18 months in, they've released Tournaments around failed neighborhoods...and still you suggest that I "can't know if they're...behind schedule". So there must be a schedule somewhere, stating 18+ months as the projected date for correcting neighborhoods? And an intentional schedule for Fairy stating "release new fighting units x months after"...Please. It's more likely, from what we've seen, that there's very little schedule at all. They're having to revise code- an exponentially more difficult task than writing original code. Sure, they have goals / targets, but hopefully they're aiming for bug-free code over timetables.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

DeletedUser2870

Guest
'Soon' is not a definite time. And it doesn't mean 'right away' or 'now' in any kind of phrasing I use it in. However, 'coming soon' should be at least be defined in a game like this. 3 months can be seen as soon for somethings. I have no problem with that, but in such a case I expect a reasonably dependable timetable.
When I had to work on testing a new machine before allowing it to go in production, it took 6 months to test and then another 2 months of making adaptations which had to be tested again and that still was seen as soon, no problem there. But strangely enough, it was pretty close to the timetable I gave out, saying it would take between 6 and 9 months.
However, I did not put it in the productionhall and tell people it would be ready soon and have it be in the way while it was useless. And yes, i know programming is in some ways harder and you cannot always give an exact date of delivery. But I do have a problem with a complete useless set of research topics that are required in order to go on. Like I said before: if it's not ready yet, don't put it in there.
 

DeletedUser61

Guest
they structured the game around neighborhoods - and shockingly are continuing to do so via Tournaments.
I'd suggest that it's completely the other way round.
  • InnoGames is totally aware that the attrition rate is simply atrocious for new users
  • They are equally aware that many of the stronger players, and most of the advanced Fellowships,
    simply blow off anybody whose score is below 1000.
  • The blind are therefore leading the blind, and they're BOTH falling in the ditch.
So Elvenar is the InnoGames flagship for addressing both of these issues.
  • It's optimized for casual players, and it's entire playable by someone who prefers to swing by just a couple of times per week.
  • The Advanced Scouting Chests pretty much ensure that new user won't be able to rush headlong to the end of the tech tree.
  • The Tournaments, the entry level Ancient Wonders, and the physical map all provide a ENORMOUS incentive for the stronger players to cultivate their new neighbors, and thereby provide support and guidance.
So my take is that InnoGames will do whatever it takes to cut through the physical map Gordian Knot, because doing so could easily DOUBLE our retention rate.
 

DeletedUser1122

Guest
I'd suggest that it's completely the other way round.
  • InnoGames is totally aware that the attrition rate is simply atrocious for new users
  • They are equally aware that many of the stronger players, and most of the advanced Fellowships,
    simply blow off anybody whose score is below 1000.
  • The blind are therefore leading the blind, and they're BOTH falling in the ditch.
So Elvenar is the InnoGames flagship for addressing both of these issues.
  • It's optimized for casual players, and it's entire playable by someone who prefers to swing by just a couple of times per week.
  • The Advanced Scouting Chests pretty much ensure that new user won't be able to rush headlong to the end of the tech tree.
  • The Tournaments, the entry level Ancient Wonders, and the physical map all provide a ENORMOUS incentive for the stronger players to cultivate their new neighbors, and thereby provide support and guidance.
So my take is that InnoGames will do whatever it takes to cut through the physical map Gordian Knot, because doing so could easily DOUBLE our retention rate.

Dear Sir you do belong in horticulture, specify the fertilizer side of the business. You could label your product as semi organic but full end biological product generate by bulls.

"whose score is below 1000" You joking right?

"It's optimized for casual players" ROTFLOL.

"ENORMOUS incentive for the stronger players to" Thinking they all ready were; even weaker players like me:)

Even consider a career in use car sales?:rolleyes:
 

DeletedUser

Guest
All normal provinces give you a random rune shard. However, as they are random, it may be many many provinces before you get the rune shard you want.
beside trying to 'find' shards for these 2 new lovelies ... which I am thinking are not worth it .... WHERE?
& What do you do with all of the extra shards for the lighthouse ?
 

DeletedUser

Guest
I'm going to be blunt. The sky is NOT falling.

By your own admission you don't have a programming background,
and you therefore have no clue whether the development of Elvenar is ahead of schedule, on-schedule, or behind schedule

You likewise don't have any basis for judging the quality nor appropriateness
of the programming effort AS compared to the rest of the gaming industry.
Here's an interesting article written by one of InnoGames lead developers.
https://blog.innogames.com/game-design-the-universe-and-everything#more-1112

Trusting advice from "would be game designers" is simply laughable, and it's beneath you.


Holy Moses.. .. .. .. .. .. .. o_O .. .. .. .. .. .. :mad:.. .. ..

Missanthropy I mean no disrespect at all however, your response ANGERS me to no end. Where to even start? Quite frankly my dear you are one pompous piece of work. To think.. .. .. .. .. YOU.. .. .. yes, you represent InnoGames! Just shows how little the staff thinks about their consumer base. How unprofessional, rude and presumptuous of you. A response like yours is EXACTLY the reason players are dropping by the dozens. There is no real informational or useable content in your response at all. You make a claim based on a personal observation about one person and their comments. Yet your claim is that the person has no programming background. Do you know this person in 'real life'? How do you know what schooling or knowledge they do or do not have? You my dear are doing the very same thing you are scolding them for doing!

Furthermore, a person does not have to have a programming degree in order to see the mistakes that have been made with the development of this game over the last 18+ months. We 'players' as a collective whole can form knowledgeable opinions and judgements based on facts we ascertain through time spent in the game, on the forums, in the wiki and talking to other players as well as support staff. There is a HUGE lack of communication between developers and players. When we do receive any sort of response it is one like yours that is meant to lower our value compared to yours. Often times it 'dumbs us down' as if we are of sub-standard intelligence ... (ie: did you clear your cookies or refresh your game?)

Thank you so much for further cementing and proving our entire point with your comment. You have won a cameo appearance on my next YouTube video!!


EDITED to include the Newest YouTube Video Link:
 
Last edited by a moderator:

DeletedUser2870

Guest
Holy Moses.. .. .. .. .. .. .. o_O .. .. .. .. .. .. :mad:.. .. ..

Missanthropy I mean no disrespect at all however, your response ANGERS me to no end. Where to even start? Quite frankly my dear you are one pompous piece of work. To think.. .. .. .. .. YOU.. .. .. yes, you represent InnoGames! Just shows how little the staff thinks about their consumer base. How unprofessional, rude and presumptuous of you. A response like yours is EXACTLY the reason players are dropping by the dozens. There is no real informational or useable content in your response at all. You make a claim based on a personal observation about one person and their comments. Yet your claim is that the person has no programming background. Do you know this person in 'real life'? How do you know what schooling or knowledge they do or do not have? You my dear are doing the very same thing you are scolding them for doing!

Furthermore, a person does not have to have a programming degree in order to see the mistakes that have been made with the development of this game over the last 18+ months. We 'players' as a collective whole can form knowledgeable opinions and judgements based on facts we ascertain through time spent in the game, on the forums, in the wiki and talking to other players as well as support staff. There is a HUGE lack of communication between developers and players. When we do receive any sort of response it is one like yours that is meant to lower our value compared to yours. Often times it 'dumbs us down' as if we are of sub-standard intelligence ... (ie: did you clear your cookies or refresh your game?)

Thank you so much for further cementing and proving our entire point with your comment. You have won a cameo appearance on my next YouTube video!!


EDITED to include the Newest YouTube Video Link:

Though I wholeheartedly agree with your point that the support-team seems at times to have a lack of knowledge and the communication about stuff being reported at times is abysmal, I wouldn't go so far as to try to 'nail' someone ina youtube vid (which btw does seem to be a bit longwinded to me, but it's possible that I'm just impatient).
On the other hand, it might put a bit of pressure on innogames to see if they can make some reforms. So I'll hope for that.

And yes, your point about a mod's purpose being to moderate and not participate in the discussion is valid as well. Innogames would do well to professionalise a bit in the way they are treating and communicating with their (paying) customers.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Though I wholeheartedly agree with your point that the support-team seems at times to have a lack of knowledge and the communication about stuff being reported at times is abysmal, I wouldn't go so far as to try to 'nail' someone ina youtube vid (which btw does seem to be a bit longwinded to me, but it's possible that I'm just impatient).
On the other hand, it might put a bit of pressure on innogames to see if they can make some reforms. So I'll hope for that.

And yes, your point about a mod's purpose being to moderate and not participate in the discussion is valid as well. Innogames would do well to professionalise a bit in the way they are treating and communicating with their (paying) customers.


Dhurrin,

I totally appreciate and respect your viewpoint. I also totally get how you can be of the opinion that the video seems 'longwinded'. I do understand that if individuals have followed this thread and all comments there of; my reading a few of the comments outloud in the video would certainly seem redunant. I assure you there was a method to my madness. I do also agree that calling someone out within a YouTube video may be more than harsh. I did however feel personally that it was warrented and necessary after actually reading the article that Missanthropy shared as a basis for her comments towards Bobbipiazza. The article totally countered any truth or validity in her comments.

Like you, I am hoping the winds of change will be soon upon us and the staff over at InnoGames will take note then likewise change their policy on customer relations. It does seem the video served it's intended purpose. Aider (In Game Support) has forwarded the video along with the complaints onto the proper staff members and assures me they are taking the matter seriously and will conduct the proper measures to correct it. So all in all.... it was a good day's work! ;)
 

DeletedUser627

Guest
The passion here in the Forum is outstanding. I appreciate Irishna's defence of me - grazie. In an odd way, I appreciate Missanthropy's defense of the game, even though it was an attack on me.

I admit that I do push very hard...and a Moderator may feel a need to push back lest the Forum slide away out of control. I'd ask that they keep in mind that Inno has all the power, and we have none. Voicing our opinions here is our only outlet.

At least we can all agree that we're fighting for a better Elvenar - even if our ideas of what that might be are different. It's not like any of us are anarchists or insurgents who want to see the whole thing blown up.
 

DeletedUser1016

Guest
I admit that I do push very hard...and a Moderator may feel a need to push back lest the Forum slide away out of control. I'd ask that they keep in mind that Inno has all the power, and we have none. Voicing our opinions here is our only outlet.

Bobbipiazza - you are too...way too humble... The moderator DID NOT MODERATE....Irishna is right - the moderator voiced an opinion...personal opinions, which we can not know if it is a true representation of the INNO corporation? Seemed to be more of a "loose cannon" rather than a responsible, concerned and conscientious observer of the forum. The creators, developers [& moderators] should try to understand that folks in the forum, who voice criticism and concerns stem from really enjoying this game and wanting it to succeed! Becoming defensive serves no one. So please keep "pushing very hard" bobbipiazza, because that's the only way Inno can grow. ;)

What can they do to you? Expel you:D
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Bobbipiazza - you are too...way too humble... The moderator DID NOT MODERATE

I totally agree with osideglen. Bobbipiazza being that humble can get you into trouble. Kind of like the victim taking blame for the abuser losing their temper and beating them. Oh it was my fault, I looked at him wrong. Please do not apologize for or feel that you are to blame in any way shape or form. Missanthropy was being a bully plain and simple. She was the one who was wrong.

The passion here in the Forum is outstanding. I appreciate Irishna's defence of me - grazie.

Yes, I love the raw emotion and passion as well. And you are welcome. One thing I cannot stand is a bully! In real life or online they must be stood up against.


The creators, developers [& moderators] should try to understand that folks in the forum, who voice criticism and concerns stem from really enjoying this game and wanting it to succeed! Becoming defensive serves no one. So please keep "pushing very hard" bobbipiazza, because that's the only way Inno can grow. ;)

Very well said Osideglen. I couldn't agree more.
 

DeletedUser61

Guest
Being passionate is not an excuse for jumping to unwarranted conclusions.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
Being passionate is not an excuse for jumping to unwarranted conclusions.


pas·sion·ate
ˈpaSH(ə)nət/
adjective
  1. showing or caused by strong feelings or a strong belief.
un·war·rant·ed
ˌənˈwôrən(t)əd/
adjective
  1. not justified or authorized.

fo·rum
ˈfôrəm/
noun
  1. 1.
    a place, meeting, or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged.
I suggest you see the definition above for what a Forum is. You have a moot point sir.
 

DeletedUser2870

Guest
Dhurrin,

I totally appreciate and respect your viewpoint. I also totally get how you can be of the opinion that the video seems 'longwinded'. I do understand that if individuals have followed this thread and all comments there of; my reading a few of the comments outloud in the video would certainly seem redunant. I assure you there was a method to my madness. I do also agree that calling someone out within a YouTube video may be more than harsh. I did however feel personally that it was warrented and necessary after actually reading the article that Missanthropy shared as a basis for her comments towards Bobbipiazza. The article totally countered any truth or validity in her comments.

Like you, I am hoping the winds of change will be soon upon us and the staff over at InnoGames will take note then likewise change their policy on customer relations. It does seem the video served it's intended purpose. Aider (In Game Support) has forwarded the video along with the complaints onto the proper staff members and assures me they are taking the matter seriously and will conduct the proper measures to correct it. So all in all.... it was a good day's work! ;)

Thanks! I think it should be possible to disagree and still respect one anothers views. As I do your as well. And your points definitely are valid. It just wouldn't have been my choice.
 
Top