Should winning FA prizes be a competition?

[The Unbeliever]

I played as hard as I could curing this FA, because I'm a team player & I didn't want to hurt my fellowship by being the sad-panda-anchor-sack who puts in one 5min badge and then collects everyone else's hard work.
Nor did I limit myself to the very bare minimum, because while the prizes were 110% useless crap for ME, many of my Fellows *would* get very good use out of them! Hence, I didn't want to hold back and deny them decent prizes.

All that said, overall, I personally ended up feeling drained and entirely ripped-off by the event, because I got NOTHING useful because my city is still too small to use the pathetically few prizes we could achieve!

Compere this to FoE's Guild Expeditions (which FA's are entirely based on btw!), where by each individual player can earn good rewards (with a little luck! ), and together, your combined scores earn more guild experience, and more importantly, placing in the top 3 spots simply gets you bonus guild exp instead of incredibly rare event buildings! (and those buildings instead can *potentially* be won just by being a team player and progressing as far as you can each week!)

The Fellowship Adventures though? Just a giant middle finger to 99% of the player base, because the diamond-powered fellowships will ALWAYS win no matter how much effort & how well organised the rest of us lowly pleebs are!!
They don't necessarily *have* to spend diamonds to get their badges, (though most of them I would bet did spend $$$ to buy their way to victory), simply because every fellowship member's city has already been bought to play on a massively uneven level!
Between premium expansions, fields of premium houses (so waaaaaay more population), + scads of diamond culture/res buildings, etc... these fellowships play at such a massive advantage that there's no point in ever even trying to compete!

The PvP element is a complete & utter farce, because it's literally like watching a team made up of Ovi/Crosby/McDavid/Mathews/Karrlson/Price/etc... vs. a bunch of 12 year old pewee house leaguers!

I'll still play my hardest for my fellowship, but this new feature leaves nothing but a bad taste in my mouth.

 

[DeletedUser10114]

We're all biased. The difference is that there is nothing else about Elvenar that pits players against each other and matters. Rank is without value except to those who care. Better buildings are useful to everyone. This event is a game changer in terms of how the game is played. If they want to attract a crowd that wants to beat other people, this will do it. It is likely to drive away players who don't like being beaten. Those are two different categories of player, and they are changing the focus of the game.

If better buildings are the issue and only the top 3 FS get them then we have to look at how much better they are. They were good but I wouldnt put out the resources and ESPECIALLY time involved again just to get that 1 building. just not worth it. The 14hour speed ups are nice but again... is it worth the aggravation and TIME involved to get a top 3 prize? not to me.

 

[DeletedUser4338]

Great idea Soggy for the vote. I was wondering what type of cake is it? I really enjoyed the adventure. There are a lot of opinions already posted. There are several worlds in Elvenar. A few hundred FS or so in each. I do agree that within each world ranking is more important to some than others. So I feel that the developers should base prizes on the amount of FS in each. In regard to the gold, silver and bronze awards in the Olympics, there aren't as many countries competing as we have FS. The rewards are based on what other FS are doing. Yes its out of our control within the FS, partially. Congrats to the top 3 in all worlds. But it has changed the game. I agree with Soggy. Hey I think that there should be no diamonds available to any player during the adventure. I know that our entire FS worked hard. A little bit of RL played a role in it too. Irma limited players in Florida from the Bottomless Pit. Looking forward to the the next adventure.

 

[Ashrem]

I think that there should be no diamonds available to any player during the adventure.

Elvenar is a business and selling diamonds is what pays for the programmers and artists. I wish I wasn't going to always come second to who can spend more money, but asking for that to change is like asking to eat our cake and have it too.

 

[DeletedUser1016]

So not only has competition been introduced to the game but so has Pay To Win which most likely was the point.

...if anyone wasted diamonds in this event ..they clearly have gotten "taken" by the developers - it's fine if your rich and have money to burn, but it's a poor use of diamond if you are on a budget of them - same goes for any of the smaller events! And to do the red path is also crazy expensive in goods! I'd rather save my hard earned goods for opening up provinces or catering the tournament...not wasted on one [1] extra building and/or "instant"!

That's true in my 2 fellowships. Both FS have decided to do only 1 path next time even though we placed in the top 50 and one person quit due to the stress of participation.

Same for our FS, we place about 60, but only did one path in each stage. Fortunately it just worked out that way and was fairly "painless".... we are all happy with the instants and buildings gotten from such little effort. To double, triple or quadruple our effort for another building and/or another, one & only one, instant seems "stupid"!

 

[SassKatt]

My problem with the FA is the fact that no matter how hard we tried and how much we threw at the event, we could not in any way compete with a FS that pays to win. There is no one in our FS that throws diamonds around like confetti. We all happen to be poor working stiffs that play a game that is supposed to be free to play and then are thrown into competition with groups that pay to win. Everyone contributed, though we had a couple out of town, a couple that were floating down the streets of Houston and another that was afraid that Irma was gonna be the really big bad wolf and blow their house down.
I know Inno had no foresight of these disasters, but as hard as we tried and as hard as we organized, there was no way that we were gonna be able to approach those top 3 slots.
Sorry, but if you are completing the FA in a couple of days, you are doing it throwing real cash at the game. Yes, it is our choice to use our cash for necessities and not a game, but still, it does get a bit disheartening that no matter how hard we tried, it just was not gonna happen.

 

[Ashrem]

a game that is supposed to be free to play and then are thrown into competition with groups that pay to win.

Someone has to pay the bills. the only reason the game is free to play is because there are people willing to pay. programmers cost money, artists cost money, bandwidth and hosting cost money.

 

[joha darkmatter]

hmm I did not know that only a FEW Fellowships would get Prizes. This will lessen the Liklyhood of me playing in the next event as it took all my time to help our fellowship get even to the last stage. At this point this game IS getting less and less of a game I want to bother with.

 

[Risen Malchiah]

Sorry, but if you are completing the FA in a couple of days, you are doing it throwing real cash at the game. Yes, it is our choice to use our cash for necessities and not a game, but still, it does get a bit disheartening that no matter how hard we tried, it just was not gonna happen.

Both my fellowships completed the event (one at rank 18 and the other just squeaking by at rank 49). As far as I'm aware, nobody paid with diamonds, or they didn't admit to doing so. I contributed a lot of badges and items myself and did that without diamonds. And we actually would have been able to do better, but we closed stage 3 a day early thinking the event would end on Saturday instead of Sunday. We left behind a bunch of incomplete green waypoints that would have been worth more than the pit.

Aside from your unfortunate situation with people who were not able to participate, if you stick to one path, it's not so difficult to complete in 6 days. You do need to coordinate a bit so you don't have people making the same badges and then get stuck because someone didn't make what was needed next.

 

[DeletedUser9959]

I have looked and cannot see- when does the next Adventure begin or has it been announced?

 

[DeletedUser8382]

Warframe does event prizes by percentage of participating "Fellowships." So, instead of it being 3 great prizes for a server whether it has 3 fellowships or 10,000, it's 10% or 20%, or 50%. Etc. They ALSO do prizes at certain scores.

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/The_Pacifism_Defect#Clan_Tier_Rewards

Note: Clans are "Fellowships" and Ghost/Shadow/Storm/Mountain/Moon refers to the size of the clan.

 

[Pheryll]

I do not mind having the ranking points and instants based on the top 50 leader board. This is fundamentally similar to the tournament rewards for individual ranking. The three buildings, however, should be a constant score. Something like 2,000 for the first, 6,000 for the second, and 12,000 for the third.

 

[The Unbeliever]

Both my fellowships completed the event (one at rank 18 and the other just squeaking by at rank 49). As far as I'm aware, nobody paid with diamonds, or they didn't admit to doing so. I contributed a lot of badges and items myself and did that without diamonds. And we actually would have been able to do better, but we closed stage 3 a day early thinking the event would end on Saturday instead of Sunday. We left behind a bunch of incomplete green waypoints that would have been worth more than the pit.

Aside from your unfortunate situation with people who were not able to participate, if you stick to one path, it's not so difficult to complete in 6 days. You do need to coordinate a bit so you don't have people making the same badges and then get stuck because someone didn't make what was needed next.

A 'pay to win' Fellowship though doesn't need to actually spend a single diamond during the adventure itself...
If their FS is 25 players who've all bought 50%+ of the premium expansions, and have nothing but magic res/workshops, with fields filled out with premium culture+pop buildings, then they're playing through the adventure at such a massive advantage over everyone else that it isn't even funny.

I really like the suggestion above of making the 'premium' buildings being an overall FA score based reward!
That would be awesome, even if we get stupidly high levels, such as say;
Lv1 building = 6k
Lv2 building = 12k
Lv3 building = 22k
Yeah sure, the vast, vast majority of FS's will have pretty much no hope of reaching the final prize level... (or else, it will require a full 25-member FS & really, really good organisation + full participation, which is kinda the point of the whole adventure anyways! )
However, *MOST* fellowships should be readily able to attain the first 'grand prize' building with decent effort by most of the membership.
The second prize would be attainable by those FS's who get themselves well organised, and get committed participation from the whole group.

Even if the 3rd prize would almost always be 'out of reach', I'd never feel outright "cheated" like I did this first time around, nor would the event have left such a sour taste in my mouth.

 

[ajqtrz]

In reading the reply's it appears to me that we are discussing if the "playing field" is even for large and small fellowships alike. Those positive toward the FA seem to be saying, "the field is level since all you have to do is work hard (and smarter, I'd add) than your "competition." The side that seems to be more negative answers "the field isn't level because no matter how hard I work I can never get to the top."

Okay, so is the playing field even?

The answer is, like many thing, "yes and no." You might note that no small fellowships were represented in the top 20. By small I mean ranked in the bottom of the nearly 600 fellowships that actually participated on Khelonaar (most didn't come close to finishing -- My estimate is that between 100 and 120 did so.) Thus, if we assume the smaller fellowships were as motivated as the large, we would expect a more representative sample in the top 20. That we didn't get it might be cause to question the levelness of the playing field.

On the other hand, one fellowship, ranked in the low 40's and while therefore not "\small" was not "very large" either, managed to finish just a few places short of the top three. They worked hard, and they achieved. But they were not a small fellowship. I did look at the rankings of the top 20 and almost all the top 20 finishers were from the top 20 fellowships. The outcome pretty much reflected the size of the fellowship.

It is my thinking that the reason small fellowships did not rise to the top in this FA may have been because small fellowships lack the space necessary to compete. Remember, ultimately if you had the space you could plant as many mfr's and workshops as you want. My own fellowship finished about where we were ranked. But we couldn't compete with the "top tier" exactly because our available space was less and will probably stay that way for a long time. And if we, whose cities, on average, have more space than smaller fellowships, didn't end near the top, those fellowships below us, especially way below us in standings, will have lower average scores and less space, and thus finish lower.

So the play field is not even. But was it "even enough?" I don't think so, but of course, maybe it can't be. I do think that if a fellowship is organized, works hard, communicates and commits to the project, they can do quite well. But it's doubtful they will be in the top three, no matter how hard they work. And if they re truly small, they probably won't finish in the top 100 either. Thus, if they lack the resources then if they wish to participate they should have some other reason or reasons for doing so.

Finally, a word about the elephant in the room. I know we don't like talking about it, but "pay to rank" is a real temptation in these things. The pressure to spend real money is there, as the developers intend it to be -- can't blame them for that. And there are players who view fifty dollars as pocket change and others who fifty dollars would be untold wealth. It is this factor of "uneveness" which ultimately may be the "culprit" in the whole thing. For if some fellowships have and are willing to spend the money to be at the top they will be, all the time. Other fellowships, either lacking the desire to spend or the actual finances, will always trail them. All things being equal then, "diamonds are a fellowships best friend." And they make the playing field uneven more, probably, than anything else.

Just my thoughts.


AJ

AJ

 

[SoggyShorts]

@ajqtrz
You summed up the issue quite well. I'm not sure if any of the top 3 on each server spent any diamonds directly. As @The Unbeliever pointed out, players that have already spent diamonds on space efficient premium buildings, or expansions have a big enough advantage that they don't need to buy badges.

Simply put, a higher ranked FS will have an advantage over a lower ranked FS. This is because ranking is very much tied to size, so if everyone in the game devoted 20% of their city to making level 1 workshops, then the biggest cities(highest ranked players) would have the most workshops.

I still believe that removing the competitive top 50 system and implementing a score based reward system would solve it completely.
It could even be a never ending score board- Have prizes for points going all the way up to 50,000 or even higher. The great thing about instants is that while they are very nice to have they really don't unbalance the game, so you can give away as many as you want as prizes. They could also keep going with the FS ranking points, there's no real reason to set a limit.

 

[Risen Malchiah]

A few other factors could make a difference. Higher tiered fellowships are likely to be the only fellowships who would consider completing the orange path. That's a lot of waypoints that will be ignored by most fellowships so it makes sense why they wouldn't finish in the top 3.

As for the other paths, they are remarkably well balanced. A chapter 1 player can make a flacon in the same amount of time as anyone else. So for the badges and items, it comes down to how much space is allocated for the event, and I agree higher level players may always have that advantage, especially if they are between guest race chapters.

But on the other hand, city efficiency is a factor. Many lower ranked fellowships have players who aren't "new" so much as they simply lack growth for whatever reason, whether it's activity or poor city design. In my first fellowship, my archmage was just starting dwarves when I started the game. By the time I got to fairies, the archmage was STILL in the dwarves chapter. And yet he claimed he was online every day. I don't know how to explain it, but it made me think I should go elsewhere.

 

[SoggyShorts]

. In my first fellowship, my archmage was just starting dwarves when I started the game. By the time I got to fairies, the archmage was STILL in the dwarves chapter.

Yeah it's strange when you pass someone that was so far ahead. Earlier this year I passed one of my neighbors who has swapped visits with me nearly every day. I remember when I started playing thinking how huge their Orc chapter city was, and now they are mid woodelves and I'm mid halflings.

Higher tiered fellowships are likely to be the only fellowships who would consider completing the orange path.

That's a good point; a FS that has players with 6+ max level Factories in each tier(only possible with $$ really) can just shrug off the pay quests.
I'm not sure how that path could be scaled differently though.

 

[Risen Malchiah]

That's a good point; a FS that has players with 6+ max level Factories in each tier(only possible with $$ really) can just shrug off the pay quests.
I'm not sure how that path could be scaled differently though.

I have an idea but you're not going to like it because it involves adding quests to the dreaded cycle. (Which really needs to change as it is.) But if the orange waypoints used badges or items obtained from individual pay quests instead, then they could be scaled by chapter. Of course, there's nothing to prevent higher ranked players from giving their goods to the lower ranked players to fill the badges more easily, but it would be a hassle to coordinate that.

I'm just not a fan of the pay quests anyway. Since they've been introduced, they've always been really excessive. If they were reduced, I would have less of an issue with them.

 

[SoggyShorts]

@Risen Malchiah
Actually that is quite good. I think we have to work based on the hope that the quest cycling will improve. So going from there:
How about making the orange pay sections be badges that are obtained from produce xxxx Boosted goods? This would prevent large players from feeding smaller ones, and could be scaled by chapter.

 

[DeletedUser4195]

A 'pay to win' Fellowship though doesn't need to actually spend a single diamond during the adventure itself...
If their FS is 25 players who've all bought 50%+ of the premium expansions, and have nothing but magic res/workshops, with fields filled out with premium culture+pop buildings, then they're playing through the adventure at such a massive advantage over everyone else that it isn't even funny.

I'm really tired of hearing about how the top fellowships won the FA because we purchased expansions. Or we've purchased magic workshops. Or we've purchased magic houses. Or we've purchased premium culture buildings. Or we just had to have spent diamonds to win the FA. It couldn't possibly be because at any given time during the Fellowship Adventure we had at least 20 members online, for not only hours at a time every day, but also throughout the entire 6 days. We used spreadsheets to organize builds, we had a mage designated as 'Warlord' who was directing members as to what needed to be done. We had members at the end of Halflings who built numerous level 1 workshops and manufactories in the empty space where their settlements had been. We had members who were at the end of a chapter and built numerous level 1 workshops and manufactories where their settlements had been. Regardless of how many expansions our members might or might not have purchased, space is still at a premium for all of us. Yes, many of us have 20 or 30 manufactories of our boosted goods and many have 10+ workshops, but on the pay 200,000 or pay 500,000 goods when you have 25 people contributing the cost isn't bad at all. 200,000 goods becomes 8,000 goods each. How is that unaffordable for anyone? 500,000 goods becomes 20,000 goods each. A little more expensive for some but still affordable for most. The key to winning the FA was teamwork. Not diamonds. I understand people falsely claiming that the top fellowships must have used diamonds to win, but it's simply just another excuse for their lack of effort or teamwork.

When you fail at anything in this game, or don't achieve something in an event, the 'go to' reason is because someone else spent diamonds at some point in the game. It's never because you didn't apply yourself. It's never because you are in a fellowship where half of your members are never online. It's never because you have members in your fellowship who put 30 points up in the tournaments and leech off of your hard work. It's never because half of your members failed to participate. It's never because of poor communication. It's never because many of your members never even say hello let alone chat on a daily basis. It's never because of poor organization. It's never because of lack of drive, determination or ambition. When you don't spend any money in this game you have nothing invested in it. Why complain when those who do spend money want to enjoy their game. Just be glad we pay so you can play.

Whether our buildings were purchased with diamonds or not, it still took us the same amount of time to make any badge, that it took you freeloaders to make. We didn't spend diamonds to buy our win in the FA. We didn't have to. We earned it. I know you don't like hearing that, but it's a fact. Could any team of 25 well organized, dedicated people win? Yes, but you'd have to work harder at it than many of you could ever, or have ever, worked at something in this game before. 90% of the free players don't have what it takes to win. The other 10% are already with top level fellowships and are enjoying a completely different game than most of you are even aware of.

You attempt to slur people who buy diamonds by saying "Pay To Win". Get it right!! We don't pay to win, we "Pay To Play". And we win by using all of the tools that are available to anyone, should they decide to buy them. If you can't afford to buy matches you'll just have to keep rubbing your two sticks together to start a fire. In the meantime, we're already eating dinner because we got the fire started two hours ago.

I'd love nothing more than to have a server where only people who buy diamonds could play. At least we wouldn't have to deal with the hundreds of empty, deserted towns...abandoned... with main halls in perpetual upgrade...with nothing available to click on because they have no culture buildings and the builder has been clicked on months ago. When you have nothing invested in any part of the game why not just start another city when the going gets tough. Perhaps if we had a "Pay To Play" server we could go there and have only competition from those who are worthy. That way you freebies would have to take a good hard look at yourselves and figure out why you can't accomplish things, instead of being able to blame someone else for your shortcomings.