Too Much KP Purchase

[BrinDarby]

Is everyone just fixated on using coins to buy KP?

No, My example was buyng 5 of each of the 4 things
that I can. Buy 20kp = 2 full days of All city output.

because it's a permanent increase

That.... is self explanatory to me.

Lets look at this differently, shall we ??
2 recent parts of a task were Coins and Goods.
Coins scaled to I think 840k, ~80% of my MH,
and Goods was 17.5k any goods. I'm not into the
"daily" tasks yet, so these aren't spose'd to be hard
yet, or take alotta time. Comparatively the BuyKp
task was a 2day task.

We also have to take into account boost levels. Even
I was surprised how much most players take 700% boost
for granted, even myself. Its bad enough to have a task
scaled to MH or CH level that doesn't mesh well with
boost levels, but BuyKP is not scaled, its accumulitive
and it never resets in any way. That makes it punitive to
players, especially those who play casually.

BuyKP is fine being permanent, if and --Only If-- its just
used as orig there for, helping ppl complete researches.
BuyKP should --Never-- be a task for Events/Seasons/ect

Here's a realistic replacement task......

Give 20 KP, but here's the catch. Unlike any current task
where you can disenchant, or use AWKP for a KP task.....
ohh no, it Must be Reg KP, even if you have to wait 20hrs
for your free KP, or do reg/tourn encounters to gain that
KP, you Must spend reg KP into your/others' AWs. This
doesn't punish players, its not a slam dunk task, but if
you're a few KP short, you still might buy them, heh heh.

If BuyKP remains a task for events/seasons, then it must be
changed to reset, based on CH, at the very least .... after
each event played.

(and this doesn't address the issues with "get CC" or "get enchantment" or "gain spell fragments " or "gain vision vapor" quests that other, more eloquent, people have mentioned)

Because now CH5 is need'd, not CH3 ... to "play" the game --And--
it takes longer to get into FSs (where a FS can save a quitting player),
it's far easier to lose these players before they get hook'd on Elvenar.

Inno says there are "core buildings" that cannot be deleted......
Well, I say there are "core functions" that All players need, far
sooner than CH5. Gone are the days where you could blast thru
CH1 in 1-2 days, join a FS, get a small loan, Blast into CH3 in ohh
1-2 weeks, pause and payback loan.... while you got some good
advise from your FS and hopefully the forum. Sure you were still
below 300% boost, you had barely 4-5 provinces open for tourn,
and playing was no piece of cake.... but you only miss'd 1 event,
so that means you have a basic understanding of what events ask
for, and your 2nd event should be playable.

CCs, Frags, VV, enchantments.... All are tied to having a MA, so your
MA is not only a core building, but has core functions.... thats a CH1
building if I ever saw one. Your MA also is tied to Spire to make it
work to begin with, nuff said there.

Exactly how long is a new player supposs'd to "wait" before they
can play the full game ?? I guess CH5, meaning any Event is just
a tease untill then. ( To me ), that disrespects your playerbase, and
directly causes players to quit, thus decreasing overall revenue.....

 

[Dhurrin]

Is everyone just fixated on using coins to buy KP? We can use our three boosted standard goods as well. And once you get your tier 3 boosted good unlocked and built, that stays really cheap for a while for buying KP, as it only goes up by 10 goods per KP.

Though true, for new cities those goods are scarce. Way scarcer than coins. My 2 new testcities haven't even unlocked T3 goods yet. The 1 just unlocked T2, the other just got to T3 but still needs to add KPs to unlock it.

And small cities will not have a lot of relics, so the production is low. 1 lvl 5 marble factory produces 16 marble/ 3 hours. Or 29 / 9 hours at 123% boost from relics. But for the first KP I need 120 marble! So say ALL 8 factories for 1 3 hour production. Of course, the next KP I want to buy needs more.

For T2 it vastly becomes worse, as a new city generally does not have room for more than 3 T2 factories.

Another of my test cities just unlocked T3 goods, but still needs room to build a T3 factory, and there is no way there will be more than 2 and even that is pressing it.
But lets look at marble first marble factories at lvl 9, 241% from relics, doing 79/ 3 hours, or 144 / 9 hours., but having bought a few already I now need 520 marble for 1 KP, so 7 factories for 1 run of 3 hours for 1 KP. But I only have 6!
If I were to use silk, I produce 138 per 3 hours, or 253 / 9hours at a 228% boost, but again, after buying a handful I now need 260 silk for 1 KP, so only 1 factory and change. But I only have 3 of them.

So yes, you CAN buy KPs for goods, but for new cities that means doing absolutely nothing else for days, just to get 1 of those quests done. And there are a LOT of KPs to buy.

@OIM20
Yes, disenchanting eventbuildings is an option. PROVIDED one is already halfway chap 3, as you need to unlock that tech first. But even then it's not a great option. The eventbuildings are not great at that point compared to later chapter versions, but usually still outperform the regular ones.
But you will already get quests to gain spellfragments, or VV, or CC-spells before you reach that point.

You say you do so in a chap 6 city, my point is there will a LOT of players who will quit before reaching that point, hell, a lot will quit before even finishing chap 2 or 3, because they are constantly faced with impossible demands.


In short, during the first few chapters the events are horrible for new players, which no doubt is a major turn-off. Imagine you start a new game and you constantly get bombarded with quests you cannot do! It is frustrating to no end. Retarded is still too kind a way to describe it

 

[JackofShadows]

Is everyone just fixated on using coins to buy KP? We can use our three boosted standard goods as well. And once you get your tier 3 boosted good unlocked and built, that stays really cheap for a while for buying KP, as it only goes up by 10 goods per KP.

If a KP costs 10 of a good initially, and goes up by 10 each purchase... and you buy 14 KP... you have spent 1050 of that good. My level 4 T3 factory puts out 198 goods every 3 hours. That's with the boost unlocked. It's going to take 6 production cycles to get that back. About 2 days because I'm not going to wake up every 3 hours at night to reset production.

Now you get a quest to buy 20 KP - but the price starts at 150 (since you already bought 14). That's 4900 of that good. Maybe by this point you have a 2nd T3 factory. That's around 4 days production.

The numbers are even worse for the other goods because the rate goes up faster. Also: not all T1 and T2 goods are created equal. Open up your build window and take a look at the "benefit"/day. That's the 1 day production ignoring boost. Steel has a benefit of 19 while marble and planks are 9. Scrolls have a benefit of 41 while crystals and silk are 28. The T3 goods are identical at 56.

 

[BrinDarby]

Steel has a benefit of 19 while marble and planks are 9

steel is a 2x2, marble/planks are 2x1 so its 18 vs 19 for 2x2.
simmilar happens with T2..

 

[quin629]

Maybe Inno needs to turn the entire thing sideways: make the ability to participate in Events a reward for reaching, say, the start of Ch 6? If we are all agreed that it is basically impossible for early chapter cities to do much in the events, Inno should stop them from trying and from killing themselves in the process.

It's not a solution I like, because I think Events should help to draw new players in and keep them interested from the beginning. But given the direction Inno is going now with Events, it might be better for new players not to have these constant impossible tasks thrown in their faces. No, you do not have to do Events. But new players are less likely to understand that - they see a task, they see a prize, they figure it's part of the game and they get frustrated when they can't do it, no matter what.

 

[JackofShadows]

steel is a 2x2, marble/planks are 2x1 so its 18 vs 19 for 2x2.
simmilar happens with T2..

There's more to it than space. It takes time and resources and population to upgrade factories. If you have to build more factories to have the same output, you're going to spend more to do it. That puts cities not boosted in steel or scrolls farther behind. Or if you want to turn it around, cities that are boosted in steel or scrolls have an advantage. Cities boosted in both have an even larger advantage.

I suggested on another thread that KP purchase quests should be scaled to chapter level - 2 KP per chapter. Because - as I have pointed out - there are at least two story quests early in the game which ALSO require purchasing KP. This would keep those quests from crippling new players.

With regards to the "gain" quests (relics, spell fragments, CCs, vision vapor) - there is no good solution. Spell fragments are very difficult to come by until a player has access to the Spire. While you can create CCs in the magic academy, they take a long time to complete - and your new players are not going to have tons of timer enchantments to use.

Gain Relics quests could be scaled to chapter level, with no more than 2 per quest required until the player unlocks tournaments. This will encourage them to do neighborly help (which is no bad thing). While they'll still have to do province encounters, it won't be nearly as bad.

 

[BrinDarby]

there is no good solution.

Well, there is, but ......
Inno seems to be going in the opposite direction.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

After finishing chapter 21, these are my current KP costs. Yes, I am over 10 million coins for a KP and I still buy 10 per day, on average, because of all the coins my city generates. I also bought thousands of KP while doing chapter 21 in order to finish it faster. So while the Buy KP quests can annoy me, it is only because I don't like waiting, so it forces me to burn coin rains to avoid that.

 

[Dhurrin]

After finishing chapter 21, these are my current KP costs. Yes, I am over 10 million coins for a KP and I still buy 10 per day, on average, because of all the coins my city generates. I also bought thousands of KP while doing chapter 21 in order to finish it faster. So while the Buy KP quests can annoy me, it is only because I don't like waiting, so it forces me to burn coin rains to avoid that.

After finishing chapter 21, these are my current KP costs. Yes, I am over 10 million coins for a KP and I still buy 10 per day, on average, because of all the coins my city generates. I also bought thousands of KP while doing chapter 21 in order to finish it faster. So while the Buy KP quests can annoy me, it is only because I don't like waiting, so it forces me to burn coin rains to avoid that.


View attachment 16652

So this is my situation after chap 21. As you can see over the course of the game I have used more goods and fewer coins as I tend to spread it out more.
It also shows how badly this is designed, as I can buy way more KPs using T3 goods than T1 goods at this point, as in chap 21 the output of the factories is about even over the tiers.

But this is how it is for a city in chap 2, where I have just placed 2 T2 factories, with the boost tech not yet unlocked (and only few relics anyway) and where I have 7 marble factories that now do 47/ 3 hours each. Without the boost unlocked my 2 Crystal Factories do 24 / 3 hours each. So 7 T1 factories produce not even enough in 1 run to buy 1 KP!

The T3 is irrelevant here as those factories will not be unlocked until well into chap 3

Expecting a city like that to buy amounts like 20 KPs multiple times is absolutely wracking the game for such cities. And there are quests to buy KPs in the regular questline, the seasonquests and the eventquests.

 

[Dominionofgod]

Somewhere I thought @Dominionofgod or someone else
posted 114 buy KP for the event. I just counted 134 total.

Between 29 and 51, there's (4) of the buy 20 KP tasks, that
if you don't have open Cauldron, have NO options... therefore
way to go Inno for just crushing early CH players. Infact
of the (7) buy KP tasks, this applies to ALL of them.

Its obvious to me, (4) in 21 tasks leading to the 2nd artifact on
the timeline thingy, then just 1 in the last 20 tasks..... that Inno
is pressing the issue, that if you want that timeline artifact then
you better buy a crapload of KP you prolly can't afford or
cripples any progression you were trying to accomplish to get
that artifact.

In the past perhaps (2) buy KPs were manditory and (2) more
had options, but this event 5 of 7 are manditory and without
Cauldron all 7 are manditory. So with rapidfire events, because
they are not based on CH but accumulatitive, its far too easy
not to be able to afford to buy any. Lets face it, buy KP really
should be something that helps players to complete research
, when necessary, not a way to extract $$$ from us in Events.

Shame on you Inno, way to chase more players away,
especially new players you need desperately !

If I hadn't known the game I would probably have quit even before reaching chap 2.

At least im not alone in complaining about this one any more. I figured it would only be a matter of time till ppl got screwed up and fed up with this one.. I new this one would be a problem for a long while now. - Not only does this issue irritate me in itself, but the fact that inno could so easily avoid it all together with legit 'or' options. For some reason, they seem to be chosing not to. Which means they are knowingly and intentionally try to piss off the current player base AND make it brutal for any new players, who will likly not stick around now. It rly is starting to feel like they are trying to kill the game at times...

 

[Dominionofgod]

buy 20KP or donate MagicAcademy ....

so Inno paired 2 potential impossible tasks in
the same "or" ..... seriously ???
Ohh great, 2 of these in a row, thats helpfull ...

edit: ok they weren't both in a row....

thats the one im on now.
I got the first quests and had to use the cauldron early and waste it for that week just to get by the quest. Then when the cauldron ended that week i got the second. quest. Been waiting that one. Cauldron jsut started today. Not sure how long ill wait. But i sure as hell aint doing a buy 20 kp..

 

[Dhurrin]

At least im not alone in complaining about this one any more. I figured it would only be a matter of time till ppl got screwed up and fed up with this one.. I new this one would be a problem for a long while now. - Not only does this issue irritate me in itself, but the fact that inno could so easily avoid it all together with legit 'or' options. For some reason, they seem to be chosing not to. Which means they are knowingly and intentionally try to piss off the current player base AND make it brutal for any new players, who will likly not stick around now. It rly is starting to feel like they are trying to kill the game at times...

I started soem new cities because I heard so many complaints and wanted to see / experience for myself. Frankly, the start sucks. Unless you have a friend/mentor with a place in a FS ready, you have to limp along. And only when you are able to join a FS can they help you out a bit by sponsoring goods.
But the events are killing for small beginning cities.

Hey, the good part is these cities will be deleted once the forums go down (or I have reached the goal of reaching chap 6, whatever comes first) as I have absolutely ZERO interest in spending more time and effort on Inno. I will keep my main city going and will keep 1 city on beta in sleep-mode, only checking in once a month or so, but that's it.
I already quit a whole bunch of cities spread out over something like 6 servers, ALL of which would spend at least small amounts of money on diamonds each year.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

I started soem new cities because I heard so many complaints and wanted to see / experience for myself. Frankly, the start sucks. Unless you have a friend/mentor with a place in a FS ready, you have to limp along. And only when you are able to join a FS can they help you out a bit by sponsoring goods.
But the events are killing for small beginning cities.

Maybe for a brand-new player, but someone who knows the game, should have no problems with the changes. When the new tech tree and new chapter quests came to Beta, I made a new city to test it out. Sure, I had plenty of free time to work on the city, but I went from the start of chapter 1 to the unlocking of the Spire in chapter 5 in just about a month. And I did not join a fellowship until after unlocking the Spire. I did make a fellowship just for me as soon as I unlocked the tournament, though, so I could start piling up the relics and enchantments and KP. I did not ignore whatever event was going on at the time during that month and I did not buy any diamonds for the city.

 

[Dhurrin]

Maybe for a brand-new player, but someone who knows the game, should have no problems with the changes. When the new tech tree and new chapter quests came to Beta, I made a new city to test it out. Sure, I had plenty of free time to work on the city, but I went from the start of chapter 1 to the unlocking of the Spire in chapter 5 in just about a month. And I did not join a fellowship until after unlocking the Spire. I did make a fellowship just for me as soon as I unlocked the tournament, though, so I could start piling up the relics and enchantments and KP. I did not ignore whatever event was going on at the time during that month and I did not buy any diamonds for the city.

That was the whole point; to look at the tree and the progress as a new player would. Look at the questline and the techtree as if it is all new. You describe a process I have used in the past too, which one can do because of previous experience.
The idea that you can only make progress because you already know the game is absolutely insane. As a game, you cannot assume players will already be experienced players and they will overlook all the crap at first because they know what they can expect later on.
Not to mention that even for experienced players it is frustrating to constantly run into quests one cannot do.

Also it would depend on how frequently one plays. I wanted to rush it a bit, so I logged in 5x a day. Once again, that cannot be assumed to be the case for every new player. But if one logs in only 2-3x a day the situation is much, much worse.

 

[Dominionofgod]

someone in my fs was arranging a kp exchange for a later chapter quest. Then randomly added 'so, what is it lately with all the purchase kp task in the latest events!?!?!?!?' ... If i were any good at doing impressions ida said Welcome to the party pal! -_- lol...
Another member chimed in that they just stop playing the events once that buy kp quest shows up. And hes further then i am in the chapters.

 

[Myne]

They got better for a while with the KP quests, now they are back to being super annoying with them. I will say it again...I resent all the KP purchase quests.

 

[bkbajb]

I will not be participating in the current event. The problem is that purchasing knowledge points permanently advances one's kp purchase counters. It's like how the wholesaler charges you more and more. But at least the wholesaler resets!

The current event is poorly designed to absolutely require the purchase of more than 100 kp. There are even more kp purchase quests, but several of these provide an alternative means of completing them.
The developers need to realize that having so much in their event affects not only that event, but all future events as well, making them impractical and unrewarding.

I am not adverse to buying a few kp to complete an event, but hundreds seems rather excessive. IMHO, the event designers should always offer an 'or' option when requiring us to buy kp. A few smaller required expenditures would be acceptable, but if you're going to continue to require so much, you should at least provide a way for the players to lower our counters afterwards: perhaps we could sell back between events, lowering a counter by investing 3 earned kp.

Otherwise, this odious requirement sucks all the joy out of an event, which I am sure is not your intent.

Ok. Thanks for letting us know. If you save your coin instants this would not be an issue. I have not seen your city but there are ways to help you get through these quests if you choose to help yourself out. If not then you might be missing out on prizes that could help you.

 

[bkbajb]

someone in my fs was arranging a kp exchange for a later chapter quest. Then randomly added 'so, what is it lately with all the purchase kp task in the latest events!?!?!?!?' ... If i were any good at doing impressions ida said Welcome to the party pal! -_- lol...
Another member chimed in that they just stop playing the events once that buy kp quest shows up. And hes further then i am in the chapters.

I just do not see the problem. Save coin rains. Get more MR, increase your culture, upgrade your GA. All simple solutions. The game gets a lot tougher has you work your way through the chapters. Some people (Me) like the challenges, some do not

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

The game gets a lot tougher has you work your way through the chapters. Some people (Me) like the challenges, some do not

The problem is that a lot of newer players do not understand that Elvenar is supposed to be a challenging game, and always has been, since it first launched 8 1/2 years ago. It is not meant to be easy or it would have launched with building rotation and free building storage and all the other stuff that people wanting something easy keep asking for. On the KP thing, I will say that it is something that should scale with chapter, the way coins and supplies and goods do, but there is no reason to get rid of those quests, or have less of them.

 

[Pheryll]

and always has been, since it first launched 8 1/2 years ago.

It actually did launch as a much simpler and easier game. Sorceresses were a dominant unit, buildings from events (which only occurred a few times in a year) were either pure culture or population and culture, and it was easy to stockpile a boatload of goods. One did not have to worry about event quests forcing them to overscout to the orc wall, and chapters could be taken slowly at one's leisure.