Why KP Swap Threads ain't the best use of Fellowship KP

[Kekune]

But since it's a NetZero, having players come and go doesn't hurt anyone.
E.g. If I put 50 KP into your wonder and you leave the FS I still Get it back unless you quit the game entirely and that wonder is never filled.

I disagree...I actually think this IS one of the biggest risks to the system. You only get your investment back if the person finishes leveling their AW in the same manner, which isn't guaranteed.

If someone leaves the fellowship for another group, they're likely going to start using that group's swap system. If that group uses the swap threads (which is likely - they're very popular) then that person could receive swap exchanges *on top of* the original net zero donations. Worst case, that means 80% of the AW could be filled by other people, pushing the original donors down in the chest rewards.

 

[OIM20]

I'm going to say this because you've made me realize that my means of thanking my neighbors who aren't within my reach for offering NH when they help me out w/ trades might be detrimental to your established systems of KP exchange. It's never been my intent to deprive anyone or push someone else out of a reward on an AW. But I have donated in 5 KP increments to AWs in thanks to my neighbors.

So, if you happen to see my name on one of your FS' AW donations and I'm messing up your Net Zero system, please let me know - and do tell me whose AW it was so I don't continue to donate to that neighbor.

None of my neighbors have complained (and, yes, I will even leave it if there's no reward chest to be had), but all this talk of "interlopers" and the way you've all seemed very angry about someone not in the FS donating to an AW makes me unsure how I'm to show my neighbors I'm thankful for their help. I haven't discovered them yet on the map to offer NH and I can't meet their 75/100/150k trade amounts yet. Saying "Thank You!" just seems so trite when I can actually donate KP and help them out. (Yes, I put trades up for the good exchanges they want, I just can't meet their amounts. So sometimes the one who offered scrolls for silk doesn't see my answering trade in a lower amount before it gets taken by someone else.)

 

[Gladiola]

Send thank you by sending them a message. A polite message is always welcome. Some people are not able to read them if they are on mobile.

 

[Kekune]

all this talk of "interlopers" and the way you've all seemed very angry about someone not in the FS donating to an AW makes me unsure how I'm to show my neighbors I'm thankful for their help.

I'm not sure what in this thread came across as angry about it; I just read back through and didn't see anything that seemed angry to me.

Many groups do strategize to keep the rewards internal. Whatever system the group uses, it's generally most effective if all the rewards stay among the swap participants. Most people would probably appreciate a neighbor giving a legitimate gift. But many people do dislike "donations" clearly intended to turn a profit or take a reward from fellows (such as one-upping a previous donor).

 

[Darielle]

I'm going to say this because you've made me realize that my means of thanking my neighbors who aren't within my reach for offering NH when they help me out w/ trades might be detrimental to your established systems of KP exchange. It's never been my intent to deprive anyone or push someone else out of a reward on an AW. But I have donated in 5 KP increments to AWs in thanks to my neighbors.

So, if you happen to see my name on one of your FS' AW donations and I'm messing up your Net Zero system, please let me know - and do tell me whose AW it was so I don't continue to donate to that neighbor.

None of my neighbors have complained (and, yes, I will even leave it if there's no reward chest to be had), but all this talk of "interlopers" and the way you've all seemed very angry about someone not in the FS donating to an AW makes me unsure how I'm to show my neighbors I'm thankful for their help. I haven't discovered them yet on the map to offer NH and I can't meet their 75/100/150k trade amounts yet. Saying "Thank You!" just seems so trite when I can actually donate KP and help them out. (Yes, I put trades up for the good exchanges they want, I just can't meet their amounts. So sometimes the one who offered scrolls for silk doesn't see my answering trade in a lower amount before it gets taken by someone else.)

I had the same thought, 01M20, when I was newer. I figured if I hadn't discovered them yet, at least I could leave a few points on their AW. I was shocked when I learned that they may think of me as a "squatter." I had no thought whatsoever of rewards and at first, didn't even know there was such a thing. It's hard for a new person to know these things, but I think a neighbor should be able to tell the difference between a squatter, which is usually an advanced player who does this to multiple people, and a newbie he's just given help to who may not be able to help back.

As far as I'm concerned, I welcome all help no matter how little on my AWs. I think it's nice when a new neighbor does that as a thankyou. I don't worry if they're squatters or not. I just get my AWs done as quickly as I can, and if someone in my fellowship wants to knock off a stranger from the chests, that's fine with me too.

 

[Darielle]

I'm not sure what in this thread came across as angry about it; I just read back through and didn't see anything that seemed angry to me.

Many groups do strategize to keep the rewards internal. Whatever system the group uses, it's generally most effective if all the rewards stay among the swap participants. Most people would probably appreciate a neighbor giving a legitimate gift. But many people do dislike "donations" clearly intended to turn a profit or take a reward from fellows (such as one-upping a previous donor).

A lot of newbies don't know that they are taking a reward from someone else. I didn't even realize there were rewards for the donor when I was new. It took me a few weeks to actually read those "Did you know?" messages and find one that said there was a reward to it. I think maybe it's just the general consensus on the board that the poster may have referred to, rather than this thread in particular, and I do get that hostile vibe on this subject. I've stopped giving to neighbors I can't reach, for fear of doing something wrong. It's a shame. The only thing I do is target my scouting to reach good neighbors as quickly as possible, but as you know, that's not always a quick process. Sometimes I'll write to them to let them know I'm trying to reach them, so that I can start paying them back.

 

[Kekune]

I do get that hostile vibe on this subject.

Yeah...I know what you mean. I don't get it, though. If somebody gives me kp, that's more than I had before. If it's from a neighbor or somebody else who I've had some actual contact with, I do appreciate the gift. If it requires a correction in the swap system, that's no biggie to me. Getting mad at that would be like getting mad that somebody gave you tulips when you would rather have roses. Flowers are flowers, and it's the thought that counts.

If it's some random person who just dropped in a couple kp on the off-chance of a reward, then I do make sure my fellows have an opportunity to come out ahead. But I don't understand getting angry about it.

 

[Darielle]

Yeah...I know what you mean. I don't get it, though. If somebody gives me kp, that's more than I had before. If it's from a neighbor or somebody else who I've had some actual contact with, I do appreciate the gift. If it requires a correction in the swap system, that's no biggie to me. Getting mad at that would be like getting mad that somebody gave you tulips when you would rather have roses. Flowers are flowers, and it's the thought that counts.

If it's some random person who just dropped in a couple kp on the off-chance of a reward, then I do make sure my fellows have an opportunity to come out ahead. But I don't understand getting angry about it.

Exactly!

 

[Gkyr]

I am receiving KP from my neighbors fairly frequently. I feel good about that and a little guilty that I do not feel obligated to return the kindness. Sometimes I do. And when I am in a FS and I see one of my mates has been donated to by someone outside of the FS, I feel good for them that they have received that support. 1 and 2 KP offerings, however, do not strike me as support.

I choose to feel good about what I perceive as kindnesses; I have no wish to get involved in a pursuit of zero-sum capital.

 

[DeletedUser27062]

I am with @Darielle and @Alram on this one.

KP swap threads are easy and any kp people get in chests usually ends up right back in the swap. The net zero is great, but I only recently learned that the color coding in the chests was 20s or 5s. I am willing to bet a lot of players dont know that. They cant post expected amounts for each chest....and unless the expected amounts are listed in chat they wont give expected amounts either.

I'm not sure why you, @Alram and @Darielle think you won't break even with the netzero system? It's a no profit, no loss system that guarantees the AW holder maximum rebate on their AW. FS members who contribute to filling the chests get their kp back plus runes if they fill a top chest. We use this system in my international FS and it's very successful. Some players ask for the chests to be filled before them fill the AW, some leave it to last. The only rule is that you have the kp to finish off your AW before asking for chests to be filled. Generally I get my chest kp donation back within hours.
The perks are that you are safer from harvesters because there's no profit to be made if an outsider decides to jump on the AW. We don't worry about jumping others because in the chest filling thread we declare which chest we are taking and if an outsider has dropped a few kp that is the AW owners benefit as the outsider is pushed off if its less than 5kp.

When someone is ready to have chests filled they post a message like this:
Eudaemonia - NoT 6 5 4 3 2 1

The numbers correspond to the chests numbered on the AW. If a player is going to help they copy the whole message but delete the last number so it becomes:
Eudaemonia - NoT 6 5 4 3 2

Then that player goes off and fills the number 1 chest on my NoT. You can see how much is required to fill it by tapping on the chest or scrolling over it. Super easy.

 

[Iyapo1]

You can see how much is required to fill it by tapping on the chest or scrolling over it. Super easy.

On mobile you can not see the amount of kp in the chest. I only recently learned that the purple is always 20 and the blue is always 5 ...prior to learning that the amount in the chest was a mystery. My only argument against the net zero system is that I dont think the amount assigned to the color coded kp is common knowledge.

 

[DeletedUser27062]

One problem with your preference is that you assume a stable FS. As above, it works for Kekune and I assume a small but cohesive FS.
The game reality is vastly different. Most FS have at least a small turnover of members. It takes a while to get to know who your mates are. Meanwhile, may players reveal themselves as playing for themselves and not for any common good. Also, players outside the FS search for and snipe AWs that are 'ripe for the taking'. You will find that these issues seem to be more paramount in the 'KP sharing' subject, judging by the sheer number of posts (and acrimony) they display.
In this regard, Mucksterme's point is a good one: the environment of the KP swap is as determining as the intent of any player and swap systems are advantageous or not depending upon their venue.

In my international fellowship we've never had this happen. If someone is going to leave they're not likely to donate and the turnover from announcing to closing (and getting invested kp back) is less than 24 hours - always.

 

[DeletedUser27062]

On mobile you can not see the amount of kp in the chest. I only recently learned that the purple is always 20 and the blue is always 5 ...prior to learning that the amount in the chest was a mystery. My only argument against the net zero system is that I dont think the amount assigned to the color coded kp is common knowledge.

Yes you can. I play almost exclusively on mobile. Just tap the chest
edit: you mean the actual numbered amount right? Sorry, my bad. No, you don't see the numbers but like anything, you soon learn.
As a work around instead of calling out the numbered chest as I suggested list the chest values along with it. so 1=45 or something.

 

[DeletedUser27062]

We do both the swap threads and the announcing.

The thing about swap threads.

1 They are easy
2 There is no way to lose. If you invest 50kp the least you will get back is 50kp. And there is the possibility of getting extra kp.

The announce method is also easy.
It is a good way to make sure your FS gets all available chests and
it is good for people who are not active in the threads.

So you present this as which approach is better
I say, why choose?

Why choose? With kp threads if your AW costs 620 to level up then it will cost you 620kp. With netzero it will cost you 495kp.

 

[DeletedUser27062]

I am receiving KP from my neighbors fairly frequently. I feel good about that and a little guilty that I do not feel obligated to return the kindness. Sometimes I do. And when I am in a FS and I see one of my mates has been donated to by someone outside of the FS, I feel good for them that they have received that support. 1 and 2 KP offerings, however, do not strike me as support.

I choose to feel good about what I perceive as kindnesses; I have no wish to get involved in a pursuit of zero-sum capital.

Those outsiders dropping kp are seldom doing it as an act of kindness. I'm not saying this is always the case but if someone donates less than the value of a chest they stand to make a profit and most often they're doing so for their own benefit. I personally don't see anything wrong with that.

 

[Gkyr]

Me neither.

 

[mucksterme]

Why choose? With kp threads if your AW costs 620 to level up then it will cost you 620kp. With netzero it will cost you 495kp.

Me: "I like A & B so why should I choose between them?"

Eudaemonia: "Because C "

 

[Darielle]

In my international fellowship we've never had this happen. If someone is going to leave they're not likely to donate and the turnover from announcing to closing (and getting invested kp back) is less than 24 hours - always.

When one of our members left a couple months ago, he put 100 kp into each person's favorite wonder, as a thank you and a good bye. That would have messed up the net zero system big time.

I'm not picking on your system. If it works for you, then by all means continue it. It just doesn't work for me. As I said before, different strokes for different folks.

 

[Darielle]

Why choose? With kp threads if your AW costs 620 to level up then it will cost you 620kp. With netzero it will cost you 495kp.

I'm not sure where you got this number. With kp threads, if your AW costs 620 to level up then it will cost you 620 minus all the kp you get back from other people's chests, whatever that may be.

For example. For a wonder that requires 500 points, I use the 50 kp thread 10 times and spend 500 points. I get those back immediately. Plus, in those 10 times on the thread, I have helped, say, one person 3 times and 7 others one time. So I got the top chest in that one person's wonder and one of the better chests in each of the other 7 persons' wonders, earning additional kp from there, too. How am I spending more kp than in net zero? Please explaint this like I was a five year old, because I really don't understand your reasoning at all.

 

[DeletedUser27062]

I'm not sure where you got this number. With kp threads, if your AW costs 620 to level up then it will cost you 620 minus all the kp you get back from other people's chests, whatever that may be.

For example. For a wonder that requires 500 points, I use the 50 kp thread 10 times and spend 500 points. I get those back immediately. Plus, in those 10 times on the thread, I have helped, say, one person 3 times and 7 others one time. So I got the top chest in that one person's wonder and one of the better chests in each of the other 7 persons' wonders, earning additional kp from there, too. How am I spending more kp than in net zero? Please explaint this like I was a five year old, because I really don't understand your reasoning at all.

Sure.
So my Level 14 NoT requires 620 kp to level up to 15. It has 7 chests offering 125 kp in rewards.
If I choose to netzero this time I need to put in a total of 495kp then I'm going to ask my awesome fs to buy the 7 chests at face value after which I can upgrade so leveling up from 14 to 15 cost me 495kp.

If I choose to use kp threads I will continue to donate kp until my aw is full. This means I send out 620 kp in order to get 620 put in my aw. But I win some reward chests from those I've donated to. I might get 40kp back, sometimes more, sometimes less. It's not guaranteed. I'd have to get 4-6 top chests otherwise I've paid more for leveling up than if I had used the netzero system.

In this way, the netzero system is a guaranteed rebate that benefits the AW holder by making upgrading cheaper.