The Constructs!

[SoggyShorts]

@Dhurrin that power creep is why games like this have a shelf life.

Events make the game interesting, but it's the prizes that make them rewarding.
Those prizes need to be better than normal buildings and not be outgrown too quickly, and that's the rub. "Too quickly". Generally events are 3 months apart, and players can reasonably change 2 chapters in 3 months, so event prizes should be close to 2 chapters "ahead" as far as stats go. That's all ok until you run out of chapters.
Anyone who finished Amuni in the 7 months after it's release was in the final chapter during the latest event, and will still be in constructs for the next 2 events before inno releases chapter 15 (if they stayed on pace) To keep the 2nd and 3rd event rewarding, there must be a way for these players to improve, so the prizes must get better and better.

Solutions to power creep:
1. Keep giving players more chapters faster than they can finish them
Pro: If chapters pace events, then players will have a reason to go for prizes without the need to buff prizes.
Con: More work for inno, and new players might feel overwhelmed when they see 27 chapters

2. Make interesting/fun end-game content
E.G. Fellowship adventures that are actually fun. This is a very very easy one- most players already enjoy the teamwork part and the planning etc, just the horrible clicking and lack of in-game tools make it garbage. The prizes have never been amazing and yet I believe we'd enjoy doing them if inno put in the tiniest bit of effort.
Tournaments could be fun too- reduce them to 1 encounter per province- make manual fighting viable for under 200 hours per week

3. Temp buildings
These were probably the smartest thing inno did in years.

 

[Pheryll]

I also made the suggestion of a second city map. Adding another dimension to the game can allow the main area to be rather stale or dull in improvements while still adding something exciting.

 

[Vergazi]

I also made the suggestion of a second city map. Adding another dimension to the game can allow the main area to be rather stale or dull in improvements while still adding something exciting.

I still argue that the existence of Portals is the answer to how to make more room to expand into. If you embrace that concept then it's all about the details then. ( Portals go where? and to who? or to what time even? ) Someone told me in another thread that subways would be technologically out of place in Elvenar. Well, I suppose so, but only because they aren't needed since we have dimensional teleporters in the form of Portals. This could possibly be related to the Dweller in the Darkness idea if there was a Portal manifested if you were done with the latest Chapter that would allow going to the new Dwellers' Realm of Eternal Twilight or what have you. In fact, I believe Portals will ultimately be the salvation of Elvendar going forward, unless Inno's Devs decide to radically alter/expand the current city grid/environs.

Oh, I do go on when i get started don't I? Anyway, thanks for your patience if you read the whole thing. Any comments appreciated.

 

[DeletedUser2870]

@Dhurrin that power creep is why games like this have a shelf life.

Events make the game interesting, but it's the prizes that make them rewarding.
Those prizes need to be better than normal buildings and not be outgrown too quickly, and that's the rub. "Too quickly". Generally events are 3 months apart, and players can reasonably change 2 chapters in 3 months, so event prizes should be close to 2 chapters "ahead" as far as stats go. That's all ok until you run out of chapters.
Anyone who finished Amuni in the 7 months after it's release was in the final chapter during the latest event, and will still be in constructs for the next 2 events before inno releases chapter 15 (if they stayed on pace) To keep the 2nd and 3rd event rewarding, there must be a way for these players to improve, so the prizes must get better and better.

Solutions to power creep:
1. Keep giving players more chapters faster than they can finish them
Pro: If chapters pace events, then players will have a reason to go for prizes without the need to buff prizes.
Con: More work for inno, and new players might feel overwhelmed when they see 27 chapters

2. Make interesting/fun end-game content
E.G. Fellowship adventures that are actually fun. This is a very very easy one- most players already enjoy the teamwork part and the planning etc, just the horrible clicking and lack of in-game tools make it garbage. The prizes have never been amazing and yet I believe we'd enjoy doing them if inno put in the tiniest bit of effort.
Tournaments could be fun too- reduce them to 1 encounter per province- make manual fighting viable for under 200 hours per week

3. Temp buildings
These were probably the smartest thing inno did in years.

I agree on the temp buildings. And that idea could be used on other buildings as well.

And definitely the FA events. I dread them, since the amount of clicking involved literally has me hurting my wrists, yet I don't want to let the rest of FS down. But I'm at the point where I see them as being too much of a strain for little fun but a lot of planning. There are so many ways to make that more user-friendly and the amount of suggestions about how to do so has been huge.
Also a fan of making the manual fighting less of a bother. The amount of time needed exceeds the time available by so much it would be laughable if it wasn't so annoying. Our FS tries to go for 10 chests only once every 10 weeks since the effort involved drains everyone of troops, goods and time. More than that is just not do-able for us.

I don't agree about the chapters though. There is no way any dev-team could keep up with that pace, so speeding up the release of new chapters is impossible in the end. The daunting of new players is not something I would be too worried about. Players can deal with that and advanced players will just have to learn to deal with the fact there is a waiting time. And the devs should not feel it's such an issue to have people at the end of the techtree.
Where they went wrong was the need they felt to have a continuous barrage of events. When the events started, it was just a few. That made the prizes really worth the effort. Now, it's more of a convenience to have those prizes, but it's not a big deal. Hey, if not this event, then in a few weeks, a month at most, there will be another event to get some. The overabundance makes them less valuable. I don't see how you come with an event once every 3 months, it seems more to me. But then again, that may be just that I have been busy.

If they want to change that and keep the game viable, they will have to come up with either a way to slow down players more (and already have done that by childish methods like having to research the residences and workshops twice, as well as the guestrace-factories, which was a very cheap way of introducing 'more tech' to be researched which actually adds zero-point-zero new content, nor anything one can actually be happy about or use, it's just a sneaky way to fill out the techtree a bit more. I'm wondering if the factories will be next for that trick).
I'm not opposed to being slowed down, as long as it adds something in the game. Thus, some of the techs should perhaps require something else to be unlocked, like a series of events or puzzles to be solved before finally unlocking them.

 

[SoggyShorts]

I don't see how you come with an event once every 3 months

They're more or less seasonal, so 4 per year. Little 10 day things like Halloween or menhiroks only give 1-2 buildings so they don't affect balance that much.

There is no way any dev-team could keep up with that pace

There are loads of dev teams that could. Even inno did it in the past.
Fairies March 15 2016
Orcs July 15 2016
Wood elves Oct 21 2016
S&D Feb 26 2017
Halflings June 2 2017
That's 5 GR in a little over 15 months, and then over 8 months later:
Elementals Feb 8 2018
over 6 months later:
Amuni Aug 14 2018
over 6 months later:
Constructs Feb 18 2019

5 guest races in 15 months, and then 3 in 20 months? Come on, were the last 3 chapters twice as hard to make as all previous chapters? Can they blame it all on the sentient goods mechanic?

All I'm looking for is a chapter every 3 or 4 months. It's not like their team has anything else to do. They finished the FA long ago and just recycle the 4 versions, and the same goes for major events now, just more recycling.
They could cut down on artwork very easily and not make so many unused versions of buildings (Max level buildings get almost all of the playtime)
Which brings me to

childish methods like having to research the residences and workshops twice, as well as the guestrace-factories

I actually like this and wish they had spread out all upgrades better. Now there's almost no point in 3/4 of the artwork that they make since we unlock 4 levels at a time and just upgrade to max right away.
The barracks is a great example- all 4 Amuni levels looked fantastic, but no way was I going to miss out on so much production so I watched the animation for 15 seconds and used an instant. Repeat 3x. So if they are going to spend the time making artwork for every level of a building instead of stuff for the next chapter, spread out the techs so we actually see it for more than a day.

 

[Pheryll]

When I finally get my portal to level 2 in constructs, I will be paying very close attention to which values are actually being used in case of a discrepancy.

Now that I have gotten there, I can confirm that the portal bonus (20%, 40%, 60%) does in fact act as a separate multiplier so that the set bonus (not just the base production) becomes proportionately greater. 1000 elvenarin (base) x 2.5 (set) x 1.2 (portal level 2) = 3000 elvenarin. This is completely different from how culture buildings that produce supplies/gold work with the culture bonus and set bonus.

 

[DeletedUser20709]

OMG..that's freaking hilarious....

 

[DeletedUser20709]

Whats the age old saying....You can't help anyone who wont help themselves. WORD!

 

[DeletedUser2870]

They're more or less seasonal, so 4 per year. Little 10 day things like Halloween or menhiroks only give 1-2 buildings so they don't affect balance that much.

There are loads of dev teams that could. Even inno did it in the past.
Fairies March 15 2016
Orcs July 15 2016
Wood elves Oct 21 2016
S&D Feb 26 2017
Halflings June 2 2017
That's 5 GR in a little over 15 months, and then over 8 months later:
Elementals Feb 8 2018
over 6 months later:
Amuni Aug 14 2018
over 6 months later:
Constructs Feb 18 2019

5 guest races in 15 months, and then 3 in 20 months? Come on, were the last 3 chapters twice as hard to make as all previous chapters? Can they blame it all on the sentient goods mechanic?

All I'm looking for is a chapter every 3 or 4 months. It's not like their team has anything else to do. They finished the FA long ago and just recycle the 4 versions, and the same goes for major events now, just more recycling.
They could cut down on artwork very easily and not make so many unused versions of buildings (Max level buildings get almost all of the playtime)
Which brings me to

I actually like this and wish they had spread out all upgrades better. Now there's almost no point in 3/4 of the artwork that they make since we unlock 4 levels at a time and just upgrade to max right away.
The barracks is a great example- all 4 Amuni levels looked fantastic, but no way was I going to miss out on so much production so I watched the animation for 15 seconds and used an instant. Repeat 3x. So if they are going to spend the time making artwork for every level of a building instead of stuff for the next chapter, spread out the techs so we actually see it for more than a day.

Problem is, even though they added a lot of chapters ina short period that came with problems. Remember how with the orcs suddenly the scouting required orcs, leaving people unable to scout any further because of that. New content also fell down. Woodelves introduced mana, but the S&D did not introduce a lot of new features, except the huge campus. Halflings introduced seeds. Then Elementals with sentient T1 goods (nice touch, since that covered the new content for the next 2 chapters by introducing sentient T2 and T3) but again, not much else.
That is exactlly what I mean that coming up with new chapters is hard, it's hard to come up with new ideas. Since one now has boosted goods of 2 types, my bet is the next 3 chapters will add yet another boosted good, that of the last type. But what to do after that?
You can also see it in the way the techtree is split up: residences and workshops need to be researched twice now to be upgraded completely. And in Constructs the guestrace-buildings need to be researched 4x. Again a sign of lack of new ideas, which I can understand. (Btw, I know we disagree on this but I still feel that having 4 squadsize techs in the last chapter is a bit overmuch as well since by that time there is not too much reason to keep fighting in the provinces anyway and for the tourneys it's more of a hindrance than a help, so it's more habit of putting them in than actually being needed).

That being said, I wonder what they will do with the units. This last chapter saw the upgrade of the last units to 3 stars. So either they will have to introduce new units (which comes with a lot of problems) or introduce the 4-star units, which means they will need to make sure those are only encountered from a certain ring on the map as for starting players it will be impossible to handle even 1 squad of those. Or forego the units entirely in the new chapter, which limits their ability to fill the techtree.

 

[SoggyShorts]

Remember how with the orcs suddenly the scouting required orcs, leaving people unable to scout any further because of that.

That was due to lack of foresight on the devs part. There should have been "orc" gates on earlier chapters to prevent players from eating all of their cookes on Monday.

New content also fell down. Woodelves introduced mana, but the S&D did not introduce a lot of new features, except the huge campus. Halflings introduced seeds. Then Elementals with sentient T1 goods (nice touch, since that covered the new content for the next 2 chapters by introducing sentient T2 and T3) but again, not much else.

I agree, but coming up with new ideas is not actually that hard. I currently have a collaboration in the works with Ashrem on a guest race concept and another with @Gath Of Baal each of which introduces entirely new mechanics that would be quite interesting-- and we don't even work for inno. I'm not talking about just "how about mermaids?" ideas, I'm talking about full-fledged ideas with tech trees, storyline, guest race buildings, everything but the artwork(we might even get someone on that)
Inno games might "only" have 400 employees, but they could very easily have some forum contests to cook up ideas- crowdsourcing isn't a new concept.

You can also see it in the way the techtree is split up: residences and workshops need to be researched twice now to be upgraded completely. And in Constructs the guestrace-buildings need to be researched 4x. Again a sign of lack of new ideas, which I can understand.

1. I think upgrades should ALL be more spread out so that more of the artwork is displayed.
2. Splitting up researches in chapters 14+ is needed to offset the totally overpowered Portal Profits.
3. Yeah, something new would be nice.

. (Btw, I know we disagree on this but I still feel that having 4 squadsize techs in the last chapter is a bit overmuch as well since by that time there is not too much reason to keep fighting in the provinces anyway and for the tourneys it's more of a hindrance than a help, so it's more habit of putting them in than actually being needed).

We don't disagree on this at all, squad sizes and how they affect the game is totally broken-- there is no way to argue that it's just a fact.

 

[Pheryll]

(Btw, I know we disagree on this but I still feel that having 4 squadsize techs in the last chapter is a bit overmuch as well since by that time there is not too much reason to keep fighting in the provinces anyway and for the tourneys it's more of a hindrance than a help, so it's more habit of putting them in than actually being needed).

Mathematically, I actually think 4 squad sizes is warranted so long as catering is ignored. Consider at chapter 5 having a maximum level barracks, and only upgrading the barracks two levels each subsequent chapter. When a chapter grants 4 barracks levels you are two below maximum. When a chapter grants no barracks levels you have caught up to maximum (this will work similarly for training ground and mercenary camp in the later chapters). Take the training speed for each chapter and divide by the squad size (assuming maximum squad size technologies are taken). The resulting value (squads per 12 minutes) slowly increases each chapter from 0.0847 at chapter 5 till it reaches 0.0885 at amuni and then dips slightly to 0.0879 in constructs. That is the speed at which you train squads maintains a close ratio with taking 4 squad size technologies each guest race chapter. (Note that the projected value of a training speed of 370 for chapter 15, based upon the max training speed for the training grounds in chapter 14, is considerably low. I do not know what patterns will emerge in these yet to be released chapters).

What about the supply cost for training troops? If we are looking at workshops, they do not keep up. If we are looking at ancient wonders (like the prosperity towers and the endless excavation) then going past the woodelves chapter, the max capacity of the main hall proportionately outdoes the squad size increases, so that the production of these ancient wonders will fill the production costs of more squads.

 

[CHANDY]

I am finding Constructs has a number of problems. Most are mine, but there are quests that I am unable to do but can't delete. Another problem is the upgrade in the tech tree that is supposed to upgrade the portal islands but doesn't. 500 Elvarium and Humanarium is a lot to ask but then have no payoff is definitely a problem.

 

[SoggyShorts]

there are quests that I am unable to do

Such as?

Another problem is the upgrade in the tech tree that is supposed to upgrade the portal islands but doesn't.

Like all techs, unlocking upgrades only unlocks them- you still have to upgrade the building yourself

 

[CHANDY]

inability to delete an order to build 12 ports when i don't have room. Not allowing a delete stops the process of growth while going through the tech tree

 

[SoggyShorts]

an order to build 12 ports when i don't have room.

But you do have room. You are just choosing to use the room for something else. That's your choice.

You even have 252 empty squares in your city. That's 10 expansions! more than enough room.
https://www.elvenarchitect.com/city/planner/662e9466caa44c88b4b98ba7dd7fc8a3/

 

[Vergazi]

I wish i had these kinds of problems.

 

[k777]

I like the beauty of the buildings very much, but what I don't like is that they have no visible boundaries when grouped. SO very hard to see the space and arrange things, never mind rearrange them. That's my only gripe with this chapter, but it did prevent me from the frustrating attempt to rearrange them after I got more space. Because they are SET buildings, constant clicking, OK etc. etc. (Really don't like set buildings anyway for the most part. Very few are worth the space they take up.)

 

[DeletedUser12171]

Really don't like set buildings anyway for the most part. Very few are worth the space they take up

Is this something you know for a fact, or a matter of opinion?

I have 3 sets now in my city

My full Snow Owls set (Elementals) takes 30 squares and gives me 15k mana, 3.3k seeds, 328.5k coins and 3 KP every 24h

My partial Winter Market set (Elementals) takes 127 squares and gives me 174k mana, 10.8k T1 goods, 34.8k T3 goods, 77.4k supplies, 516k coins, 2 KP and 2 broken rune shards every 24h

My full Carnival set (Fountain Constructs, rest Amuni) takes 54 squares and gives me 88.6k mana, 4.9k seeds, 864k coin, 102k supplies, 42.7k T3 goods, 2 KPs and 1 broken shard every 24h

So every day, for 8.5 expansions, I get
277.6k mana
8.2k divine seeds
77.5k T3 goods
10.8k T1 goods
1.7 million coin
180k supplies
7 KPs
3 broken rune shards
On top of that, they give 3570 population and 59,350 culture altogether

How many regular buildings (how much space) would you need to match this output? You can do the math.

I have not built a single regular culture/mana building ever since I finished Elementals, except for a Bath of Pleasures for the Amuni storyline quest, which I tore down soon after. I finished Amuni 1.5 weeks ago and have ALL my roads upgraded to Divine Street AND right now have over 2 million mana excess. I'm not sure what stats all the set-building naysayers are actually looking at, but I'm going right on with them set buildings, LOL

 

[SoggyShorts]

How many regular buildings (how much space) would you need to match this output? You can do the math.

Just the 77.5K T3 you get from your sets would require about 570 squares or nearly 23 expansions.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Is this something you know for a fact, or a matter of opinion?

I have 3 sets now in my city

My full Snow Owls set (Elementals) takes 30 squares and gives me 15k mana, 3.3k seeds, 328.5k coins and 3 KP every 24h

My partial Winter Market set (Elementals) takes 127 squares and gives me 174k mana, 10.8k T1 goods, 34.8k T3 goods, 77.4k supplies, 516k coins, 2 KP and 2 broken rune shards every 24h

My full Carnival set (Fountain Constructs, rest Amuni) takes 54 squares and gives me 88.6k mana, 4.9k seeds, 864k coin, 102k supplies, 42.7k T3 goods, 2 KPs and 1 broken shard every 24h

So every day, for 8.5 expansions, I get
277.6k mana
8.2k divine seeds
77.5k T3 goods
10.8k T1 goods
1.7 million coin
180k supplies
7 KPs
3 broken rune shards
On top of that, they give 3570 population and 59,350 culture altogether.

This needs a major qualifier that most sets are almost useless if you are not at least as far as Woodelves, or even Halflings. That same Snowy Owls Set is mostly crap for someone in an earlier chapter. Same for the others. Someone in Chapter 5 has much better options, and different needs, than someone closer to the endgame.