Just wondering why we tolerate cheaters?!

[Enevhar Aldarion]

I read it and just SMH. The jury is still out now that they seem to have listened to those of us with a lot of $ in blue cities. I am simply waiting to see now that they changed it in beta. In the meantime I don’t take kindly to a whole segment of players having insults hurled at them just because they can afford to play how they want.

And stop acting like just because you spend all this money, that the developers should do everything exactly the way you think they should. I read your rants and your threats in the other threads. And if you don't like hearing this, then you can block me before I block you.

 

[DeletedUser20951]

Well, until you know someone in person who has had this problem and spent more money than they can afford, why don't you shut up about it. And stop acting like just because you spend all this money, that the developers should do everything exactly the way you think they should. I read your rants and your threats in the other threads. And if you don't like hearing this, then you can block me before I block you.

I too have known those who have significant difficulty controlling how much they money they spend in games like this (and in this specific game), and developers target people with such issues. The argument has gotten fairly black and white, there is merit on both sides that doesn't negate the other, with a whole slew of complexities that fall in between the two. My complaint is with players who insist they are better players because they throw cash around, not the fact that they toss it.

 

[SoggyShorts]

I guess so, but since all Wonders have a level cap, the advantage that pushers get is only temporary, until legit players catch up to them.

Wrong again.
Do the math: to legitimately max wonders takes DECADES.

Wonders are so powerful that they are balanced so that you must choose which ones to have and which to level...or cheat.

 

[Deborah M]

Wrong again.
Do the math: to legitimately max wonders takes DECADES.

Wonders are so powerful that they are balanced so that you must choose which ones to have and which to level...or cheat.

I asked someone who is not a top 50 ranked why they have push accounts. They had a very good answer. This person is a mobile player. Because they cannot participate in the KP thread and receive the KP from chests when the other participating players level up AW they feel cheated. That actually makes sense to me. Since Inno has not made messaging available on mobile and they have not made visiting other players' and adding to their AW available on mobile it seems fair to me. Definitely not the same as the few who have all of their AW at level 30 already when it hasn't been that long since they increased the AW max level.

FYI, Soggy is a "better" player than me. He does not spend cash and has a utilitarian play style. His in depth analysis is awesome! I am both too impatient to play that way and feel like taking a break from in depth analysis of anything after all these years.

@Enevhar Aldarion While you were wasting time reading all my posts you missed this one in the News from Beta discussion. "Well Hush My Mouth I really did believe that Inno was completely indifferent to the huge negative effect the prior RR conversion was going to have on pay to play players like me. It looks like I have a whole lot of negative things I said to take back I am beyond pleasantly surprised that they listened to those of us who have blue cities and left the blueprints as they are Neither I nor anybody in my family have spent a dime since. I came so close to walking away but now I'm glad I waited to see what the final decision would be. I definitely have some other players who I can't wait to tell "

 

[mucksterme]

Well, until you know someone in person who has had this problem and spent more money than they can afford, why don't you shut up about it.

Yes, shame on her for defending her position.

Tell me, is it wrong for me to mention having the occasional drink, because there are alcoholics?

And stop acting like just because you spend all this money, that the developers should do everything exactly the way you think they should. I read your rants and your threats in the other threads. And if you don't like hearing this, then you can block me before I block you.

You are right
People shouldn't rant
I must say though. I enjoy how you make 'blocking' sound like it has real world implications.

 

[DeletedUser2870]

Most of the top 10 players have 150-450k ranking points from AWs (not counting the throne), yet it is very hard to reach 1000KP per week if you play the game normally. So either they have a 3-9 years old city in a 2 years old world, or something is very wrong here... I wonder why admins let this continue. Probably I played competitive games too much, that's why I cannot tolerate shameless cheating while others do...

Just a reply to the original post.
Though there obviously are people who will cheat in this, the amount of KPs one can get is really high. 1000 KPs per week is doable. Let's look at my situation, and I'm not too active anymore, mostly due to lack of time.

24 kp's per day from the regular hourly points.
3 per day from my Tome of Secrets
4 per 2 days from my Stonehenge (will count the average 2/day)
4 per day from the Ferris Wheels/Carting libs combination I tend to have up all the time.
1 per day from buying kps for gold. (only count 1 as that is my normal thing, but during events it often becomes more due to the quest to buy KPs)
That already makes 34 per day.
In the tourneys I tend to average about 26 provinces for 4 rounds. That's 54 from the rewards in the first 9 provinces, plus 5/province for provinces 10-25 in round 2, so another 80. Or another 19/day if averaged out over the week.
That brings the total (averaged out over the week) to 53 per day

Now I'm going to add the KP instants, even though they can only be used for AWs, but that was the whole point.
I'm in a relaxed FS, so we only do about 7 chests on average every week. That means that the chests grant another 55 KPs in instants every week. That equals 7,8 per day. I'll round it up here to 8.
6 Monuments of Ancient knowledge, 2 sets of 3, so every day I get to harvest 3 of them for 3KPs each, makes 9,
Mermaids Paradise for another 3 per day.
Total of these means 8+9+3=20 per day
That brings the total to 73 per day

NOT included here are
- KPs from Wishing Wells
- KPs from return investment in other players AWs
- KPs from crafted KP instants or crafted KPs
- KPs from the chest when gaining 100 VV from crafting
- KPs gained from events by opening chests (either 'pure' KPs or instants) or daily prizes

If I added those, I would probably already end near 90/day.
If I had a bit more time to do an extra round of the tourney, round 5 will grant another 6 KPs for each province after the 9th. I usually just don't bother since I auto-fight due to lack of time and the losses are too high for my taste that way. But that would in my case already mean another 15x6=90 KPs per week, more than 10/day.
Those who are far advanced and want to, can probably do 30-35 provinces instead, meaning 11 extra points per province (5 from round 2, 6 from round 5).

With such scores an average of 120 KPs per day is very well possible. If I can do at least 80/day while not playing too intensively such scores are very well attainable.
And don't forget there is a point where it becomes a self-enhancing effect. As military AWs gain in power, it becomes easier to do more provinces, and thus to gain more rewards with fewer losses. If one can do manual fights, the losses will be about 40%-50% lower than on auto-battle, so that means a LOT more provinces again.

Granted, not all possibilities have been around all the time, but the top players tend to heavily invest real money and that does pay off in different ways. And my example is for a guy who doesn't play too intensively. Someone who does could perhaps score 150/day on average if taken over the year.

 

[mikeledo]

Many of the things you mention are new to the game such as Ferris wheels, crafting, carts, Stonehenge and the fact the 10 chests KP was greatly increased. Until the last year, KP was a lot more scarce. INNO is making KP available to everyone. Cheating is not seen in the fact folks just have a lot of KP. It is seen that the same group of cities donate all their extra KP to one account. Many of those push cities don't make it past chapter 2. The folks who operate these push accounts don't even attempt to hide the fact using the same avatar on all of them or all having the same theme name. They thumb their nose at INNO's rules. They say "Yes, I am cheating, what are you going to do about it?"

 

[ET-inf3rno]

Many of the things you mention are new to the game such as Ferris wheels, crafting, carts, Stonehenge and the fact the 10 chests KP was greatly increased. Until the last year, KP was a lot more scarce. INNO is making KP available to everyone. Cheating is not seen in the fact folks just have a lot of KP. It is seen that the same group of cities donate all their extra KP to one account. Many of those push cities don't make it past chapter 2. The folks who operate these push accounts don't even attempt to hide the fact using the same avatar on all of them or all having the same theme name. They thumb their nose at INNO's rules. They say "Yes, I am cheating, what are you going to do about it?"

+1, not to mention I posted this in January and we got the fire phoenix since April. Without that it was a lot harder to do 27 provinces each week. I did around 15 maybe, but I have many optional SSU-s. Would be nice to turn those off with my current city. I no longer have province expansion. :S

 

[DeletedUser2870]

Though true that some of them are new, not all are. Events have been around for a while and I tend to get a LOT of KPs and KP instants from those for instance. Carting Libraries have been around for a while, though the Ferris wheel was added.
And I'm not even completing all of the events, I've missed out on several.

As for the tourneys, even before the FirePhoenix I did about the same. I have increased a bit, but that is compensated by less time available. Main point in the tourneys is having time to do manual battle, which greatly reduces losses and thus allows one to do many more provinces.
When one is talking about the top-players, they have probably spent quite some time playing very intensively in the tourneys and that adds up.
And the military AWs are a definite self-enhancing effect. Not just in increased damage, but also in generating free units, an effect that should not be underestimated.

I did not want to say there is no cheating going on, I just wanted to show that even with reduced time and kinda casual play I still get a pretty substantial sum of KPs per day. So someone who does have the time and inclination to do so can get a lot more. Of course, spending real money will also help.

Cheating will always be around. I don't care too much in this game. This is not a PvP game, so if someone wants to, let them go ahead. Nobody is being shorted by it, which probably is why Inno doesn't care too much. Not to mention there are far more important issues to address.. If it resulted in players getting some kind of unfair advantage over other players, hurting them, it would probably be another matter, but who is being hurt? Someone who feels he wants to be at the top of the list? In that case that person probably would be more at home at a more competetive game anyway.

Many of the things you mention are new to the game such as Ferris wheels, crafting, carts, Stonehenge and the fact the 10 chests KP was greatly increased. Until the last year, KP was a lot more scarce. INNO is making KP available to everyone. Cheating is not seen in the fact folks just have a lot of KP. It is seen that the same group of cities donate all their extra KP to one account. Many of those push cities don't make it past chapter 2. The folks who operate these push accounts don't even attempt to hide the fact using the same avatar on all of them or all having the same theme name. They thumb their nose at INNO's rules. They say "Yes, I am cheating, what are you going to do about it?"

By the same token one can say Inno makes a LOT of things available to all players.
Portal Profit instants are also relatively new. Players who have been around a while had to slave through chapters, especially the Orcs since there were no such shortcuts. Now newer players can breeze through chapters a lot easier because of them, especially since they are so incredibly common now.
Wishing Wells have been around for a while, and make diamonds available to everyone. As are the diamonds at finishing a chapter.
Troops are being given at the start of a city, when I started no free troops were given.

Should I now feel offended because I had to go through the chapters without them? or because I had to go slow because I had no free troops to start with? or because I bought diamonds and now new players get them for free for completing chapters I already completed and did not get diamonds for and have other ways of getting them?
I'm not, it is a change, it is what it is. If it helps newer players, fine.

 

[DeletedUser8993]

Cheating will always be around. I don't care too much in this game. This is not a PvP game, so if someone wants to, let them go ahead. Nobody is being shorted by it, which probably is why Inno doesn't care too much.

This game requires an investment, whether it's time, or money, or both. The fact that this thread exists is proof that those who have invested a lot of either and play by the rules are not amused by players who exploit advantages like having multiple cities in the same world, which Inno originally said they prohibited... but later quietly removed from the rules.

So now you've got a significant investment, if you will, and someone who is cheating passes you. You'd have to be the most apathetic slug in the world not to care about that, especially if you've played by the rules and spent a considerable amount of money on the game. The fact that it's "just a game" is irrelevant. All games have rules and rules must be enforced, or it negates the point of having them in the first place. Let's be honest, there are no actual rules in this game. Whatever makes Inno more money is fine with them.

However, your statement that no one is being shorted by it is false. You may not care because you're not investing anything but time, but when someone has just negated by cheating what you achieved with ACTUAL dollars spent, let me know how you'd feel about that. Let's say you've got a beautiful new home that you worked hard for, and someone builds one right next to yours, twice as big and twice as nice... and they didn't pay for it, or paid considerably less. Tell me with a straight face that it wouldn't bother you at all.

You may be fine with playing your game in a vacuum, ignorant and unconcerned by the progress of those around you. Maybe that's how you get enjoyment. For those who are competitive, however, recognize that they have a significant investment in the game and the fact that Inno allows cheating to go on unchecked is a betrayal of trust and that investment. Just because it doesn't matter to you doesn't mean it doesn't matter to others. It's not always about you...

 

[Ashrem]

For those who are competitive, however, recognize that they have a significant investment in the game

Competitive people shouldn't be focusing on F2P games. There's always someone with more money that you. There's always someone with more time than you. And there's always someone with more of both. Would I be bothered if my neighbour won the lottery and threw money around? Sure. Would I be bothered if they got rich from selling drugs and threw money around? Sure. Are the police going to do something about either? Statistically, probably not.

Because even though I'm sure they are selling drugs, the police aren't. And before they go kicking taxpayers out of their house and putting them in jail, they have to be 100% sure. otherwise they get sued. Inno is not so different.

they both have a certain number of resources to deal with keeping everyone in town happy, and that means making choices about how best to do it. I know there's a cheater in my explored area. It bugged me. I got over it. My petty revenge is to ignore their trades. If I need to help them for my own needs, I pick the smallest culture I can help and move on.

There isn't very much we as individuals can do about Rich Drug dealers. There's only so much good that comes from complaining about them.

 

[Risen Malchiah]

I know there's a cheater in my explored area. It bugged me. I got over it. My petty revenge is to ignore their trades. If I need to help them for my own needs, I pick the smallest culture I can help and move on.

Haha I do the same thing. I don't visit them and don't take their trades. I also get a quiet thrill out of beating a known cheater on the tourney roster for the week.

 

[ET-inf3rno]

Though true that some of them are new, not all are. Events have been around for a while and I tend to get a LOT of KPs and KP instants from those for instance. Carting Libraries have been around for a while, though the Ferris wheel was added.
And I'm not even completing all of the events, I've missed out on several.

As for the tourneys, even before the FirePhoenix I did about the same. I have increased a bit, but that is compensated by less time available. Main point in the tourneys is having time to do manual battle, which greatly reduces losses and thus allows one to do many more provinces.
When one is talking about the top-players, they have probably spent quite some time playing very intensively in the tourneys and that adds up.
And the military AWs are a definite self-enhancing effect. Not just in increased damage, but also in generating free units, an effect that should not be underestimated.

I did not want to say there is no cheating going on, I just wanted to show that even with reduced time and kinda casual play I still get a pretty substantial sum of KPs per day. So someone who does have the time and inclination to do so can get a lot more. Of course, spending real money will also help.

Cheating will always be around. I don't care too much in this game. This is not a PvP game, so if someone wants to, let them go ahead. Nobody is being shorted by it, which probably is why Inno doesn't care too much. Not to mention there are far more important issues to address.. If it resulted in players getting some kind of unfair advantage over other players, hurting them, it would probably be another matter, but who is being hurt? Someone who feels he wants to be at the top of the list? In that case that person probably would be more at home at a more competetive game anyway.



By the same token one can say Inno makes a LOT of things available to all players.
Portal Profit instants are also relatively new. Players who have been around a while had to slave through chapters, especially the Orcs since there were no such shortcuts. Now newer players can breeze through chapters a lot easier because of them, especially since they are so incredibly common now.
Wishing Wells have been around for a while, and make diamonds available to everyone. As are the diamonds at finishing a chapter.
Troops are being given at the start of a city, when I started no free troops were given.

Should I now feel offended because I had to go through the chapters without them? or because I had to go slow because I had no free troops to start with? or because I bought diamonds and now new players get them for free for completing chapters I already completed and did not get diamonds for and have other ways of getting them?
I'm not, it is a change, it is what it is. If it helps newer players, fine.

I think you don't realize the difference in numbers. You might be able to collect 1k KP a week if you play seriously, while they are collecting 1k from playing and 9k from cheating. That's the difference... All top cities on each servers were cheaters last time I checked. It is really easy to find them, they have above 100k RP in ancient wonders and they always have the throne for additional RP. They sometimes win the tourney on the first day, like somebody did with around 20k TP on Sinya on steel. You cannot compete with them. It is like using an aim bot for a first person shooter... And this game has competitive parts either you realize it or not. The ranking point and the tournament point system is for competition. Tourney is the most interesting part, because you can win ranking point with it. Sometimes when you join to a fellowship they check your ranking points too, so I would not say it does not matter, but you can get pretty high in it without cheating too. If you are in the same fellowship with a cheater, then their cities will get all AW rewards and you end up donating KP and getting nothing back if you have for example a KP pool or a KP chain. Those are the most problematic parts.

 

[DeletedUser8993]

I think you don't realize the difference in numbers. You might be able to collect 1k KP a week if you play seriously, while they are collecting 1k from playing and 9k from cheating. That's the difference... All top cities on each servers were cheaters last time I checked.

All but one.

It is really easy to find them, they have above 100k RP in ancient wonders and they always have the throne for additional RP.

Make that 200k+ and one on Sinya with every AW maxed at level 30 (600k). I hope it was worth it, because he can't even cheat any more and it looks like he's tapered off since July, with the exception of tournament (see below). No room, no AW levels. We'll see what happens when the next chapter starts. Inno will probably increase the number of levels on each AW to 35 and we'll be off to the races again.

They sometimes win the tourney on the first day, like somebody did with around 20k TP on Sinya on steel.

18,630 points... I'm pretty sure that's just solid strategy.

 

[ET-inf3rno]

All but one.

Make that 200k+ and one on Sinya with every AW maxed at level 30 (600k). I hope it was worth it, because he can't even cheat any more and it looks like he's tapered off since July, with the exception of tournament (see below). No room, no AW levels. We'll see what happens when the next chapter starts. Inno will probably increase the number of levels on each AW to 35 and we'll be off to the races again.

18,630 points... I'm pretty sure that's just solid strategy.

I can do around 15k, I don't have enough provinces, that's why I no longer push steel. Maybe on a different tournament I can be first some day.

 

[Deleted User - 1599294]

Make that 200k+ and one on Sinya with every AW maxed at level 30 (600k).

Yup, I'd like 750 levels in my AW's, imagine the Divine Seeds from the trader alone. . .
I am not uber-competitive, nor do I spend thousands on this game. If I had thousands to spend, it would be real diamonds, not Inno diamonds. However, cheating bothers me. I'd like to think fair play is still valued and respected.

 

[mucksterme]

+1, not to mention I posted this in January and we got the fire phoenix since April. Without that it was a lot harder to do 27 provinces each week.

Yes
A couple years ago, before the phoenix and crafting I got #1 on the server with maybe 2000 points
A few months ago I got #1 with somewhere between 5k and 6k
Last week the #1 on our server was over 17K

The game has changed

 

[DeletedUser2870]

@JL7316
Who said I did not invest real money? You seem to be relatively new on the forum, but I've taken breaks from this game and terminated a lot of cities just because of the fact I found Inno was rather unresponsive over several issues. And over the years, on severs in several different countries, I've probably spent a several thousand dollars on this game.

However, I really don't give a flying -beep- about whether or not someone ends up higher in rank. If something like that bothers you, you really are in the wrong game. This game is not exactly about competition amongst players. If you feel shorted by someone else spending more money, more time, more effort, too bad. The original post was about the fact it supposedly was hard to get 1000KP/week. My response was to show that actually is not too hard anymore. Now you come whining -sorry, but that's how I see it- about other players doing maybe 9.000KP/week. I have my doubts about that claim, but really don't care enough to look into it.
And even if they would manage that by cheating, it means they are spending a lot of time and effort doing so by using all those cities. So in that light they are putting in more effort than you do. Since Inno changed the rules, there isn't really a lot one can do about it. As was stated earlier, one has to PROVE without doubt they are cheating.
I also have had some issues with KPs being invested and not showing up, but Innos response was that they don't keep track of KPs. As long as that's their policy, there is no way of getting definite proof.

I myself don't care one bit one way or the other. If you feel you are being shorted by them doing that, feel free to do the same and start extra cities. But I will reiterate that in my opinion if you are so obsessed by rank and competition you just have chosen the wrong game.

 

[qaccy]

Yeah, Inno doesn't care. At least not if you spend enough money. I imagine having multiple push accounts without paying for the privilege will probably get you shut down. But if you're a regular customer they'll look the other way even if other players put in tickets with evidence against you. That's why they don't really bother trying to hide their multiple accounts, because they know they're allowed to get away with it.

Essentially, if you're someone who buys diamonds, my advice is to start doing it yourself instead of getting upset that there are players already doing it. Multiple accounts are just another aspect of gameplay now that premium players have access to and I'll continue to believe this until I see one of them get banned from the game.

 

[ET-inf3rno]

@JL7316
Who said I did not invest real money? You seem to be relatively new on the forum, but I've taken breaks from this game and terminated a lot of cities just because of the fact I found Inno was rather unresponsive over several issues. And over the years, on severs in several different countries, I've probably spent a several thousand dollars on this game.

However, I really don't give a flying -beep- about whether or not someone ends up higher in rank. If something like that bothers you, you really are in the wrong game. This game is not exactly about competition amongst players. If you feel shorted by someone else spending more money, more time, more effort, too bad. The original post was about the fact it supposedly was hard to get 1000KP/week. My response was to show that actually is not too hard anymore. Now you come whining -sorry, but that's how I see it- about other players doing maybe 9.000KP/week. I have my doubts about that claim, but really don't care enough to look into it.
And even if they would manage that by cheating, it means they are spending a lot of time and effort doing so by using all those cities. So in that light they are putting in more effort than you do. Since Inno changed the rules, there isn't really a lot one can do about it. As was stated earlier, one has to PROVE without doubt they are cheating.
I also have had some issues with KPs being invested and not showing up, but Innos response was that they don't keep track of KPs. As long as that's their policy, there is no way of getting definite proof.

I myself don't care one bit one way or the other. If you feel you are being shorted by them doing that, feel free to do the same and start extra cities. But I will reiterate that in my opinion if you are so obsessed by rank and competition you just have chosen the wrong game.

Last time I tried I showed them screenshots of donations from a single zombie fellowship, elvenstats with 8k growth per week for 2 months without any layout change. Every single RP was from KP pushing. What I found outrageous that the same player asked for KP donations in our KP pool and got it. Another thing that mages supported that city in our FS, so I rather left. I reported it to support attached evidence, but nothing happened, that city is still in top 15 on tournaments with a level 30 needles, sanctuary, etc. That was maybe a year ago. You cannot do more than that as an user. Inno could easily track KP if they want to, but they won't do it.

So basicly you came here to tell us you don't care about cheating and you feel it even justified because it is "hard work". Good to have you here. I just wonder why we have any type of ranking if this game should not be played competitively.