• Dear forum visitor,

    It looks as though you have not registered for a forum account, or are not signed in. In order to participate in current discussions or create new threads, you will need to register for a forum account by clicking on the link below.

    Click here to register for a forum account!

    If you already have a forum account, you can simply click on the 'Log in' button at the top right of your forum screen.

    Your Elvenar Team

Cancelled. After reading through it, this thread is irrecoverable.

AtaguS

Well-Known Member
I'm unclear on how there will suddenly be a massive shortage of spell fragments if this suggestion gets implemented, or why a sligher shortage would be a huge problem. The suggestion to increase the spell fragments in the 1st level of the spire and gradually phase them down or out by the 3rd takes into account the players who are not yet overloaded in spell fragments and still find value in those chests. This isn't an all or nothing suggestion. The spire is not the only source of spell fragments in Elvenar. A reduction in spell fragments in the spire may cause some players to turn to the disenchanting option from time to time, or may even slow a player down a little as they wait for a replenishing of resources but how is that different than any other resource in this game?

Isn't that part of the lasting fun of the game...to keep strategizing and organizing to keep up the resources necessary to build and operate the city of our dreams? Crafting things in the MA is a great tool and brings many boons to our cities but it, like everything else, requires planning and work and the right resources to pull off. Why should spell fragments be so plentiful that crafting just becomes a background operation without having to think? I mean, that sounds great don't get me wrong, but it doesn't sound like the Elvenar I've come to know and love. Too much of any resource tips the balance and dampens the fun.

If a city plays the spire regularly they will find plenty of coin refills, supply refills, mana plants or gum trees in their inventory wanting some disenchantment from time to time. And an increase of spell fragments in the first tier means plenty of chances to win those too. They'll have more time instants to feed their barracks (less SFs used up crafting time instants) and get farther in the tournaments, resulting in plenty of spells to disenchant as well. If they don't play the spire regulary then nothing changes for them by this suggestion getting through. Although if they learned that there was a solid chance of getting a bunch of spell fragments in the 1st tier alone, they may take a closer look and give it a try. Seems like a win-win to me. Sometimes a slight nerfing can actually get everyone out ahead in the end.
 

Ashrem

Well-Known Member
I still respectfully disagree with this whole topic, this is a screenshot of my 2nd main account under a different name on a world that opened past September / October. It has a level 5 academy, level 4 builder since the start and I own many premium expansions and I play 2 levels a week in the spire.
So if you are playing two levels a week in the spire, and were getting 20-30% more fragments for the first level and 20-30% less from the second level, that would have approximately zero affect on your city. meanwhile, the large number of people playing one level of the spire every week would have more fragments, and the people playing three levels would have less.

So zero affect on you, and a positive effect on lots of other cities. What is your concern?
 

sam767

Active Member
Thanks for all of the updates. Ashrem's suggestion is super so I updated the lead post to focus on it. I'm now soliciting discussion on the specific recommendation (or not). I'm a little busy right now so will probably have time to go over the entire thread this weekend because I am huddled in my apartment in a state of complete fear of going out.
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
So if you are playing two levels a week in the spire, and were getting 20-30% more fragments for the first level and 20-30% less from the second level, that would have approximately zero affect on your city. meanwhile, the large number of people playing one level of the spire every week would have more fragments, and the people playing three levels would have less.

So zero affect on you, and a positive effect on lots of other cities. What is your concern?
hmm so I noticed. so after 15 pages this thread has now been modified to say we want more prizes in the spire?
If they wanted to give more, they would have given more anyway.

This thread has now became useless, pointless and could be closed.
 

Ashrem

Well-Known Member
hmm so I noticed. so after 15 pages this thread has now been modified to say we want more prizes in the spire?
If they wanted to give more, they would have given more anyway.

This thread has now became useless, pointless and could be closed.
Your opposition to the thread does not allow you to redifine what we are asking.

We are asking for "different" prize mixes not "more." It's fine to not like the idea, but there's no need for dishonesty.
 

Risen Malchiah

Well-Known Member
There was seems to be an emerging consensus on the replacement to the SF rewards. As the discussion evolves I plan to add it here.
I like the re-worked version. This line obviously is a work in progress. Ultimately, we could list sample possibilities for replacement rewards in the third level. Not specifics, but just a generic open-ended list of possibilities we'd like to see and the devs would decide which ones to use for balance.
 

CrazyWizard

Well-Known Member
Your opposition to the thread does not allow you to redifine what we are asking.

We are asking for "different" prize mixes not "more." It's fine to not like the idea, but there's no need for dishonesty.
There is now nothing new in this thread other than the basic feedback from when it was released.
Now the idea is to keep the spellfragments but bring them all into the first 2 levels (so we can reproduce this thread later? again? for again more prizes?) and then add new prizes to the 3rd level. essentially telling you want MORE prizes., to me thats the same as asking for helicopter money.

Those are pointles, and not even ideas. I could make an idea to give every player 5000 diamonds and 500 hours of timeboosters.
That's not an idea, thats just pointless. so from now on this threas is nothing more than being pointless. even if it's get voten upon, once it's reaches headquarters it can go directly into the bin, not even worth looking at.
 

Darielle

Well-Known Member
Thanks for all of the updates. Ashrem's suggestion is super so I updated the lead post to focus on it. I'm now soliciting discussion on the specific recommendation (or not). I'm a little busy right now so will probably have time to go over the entire thread this weekend because I am huddled in my apartment in a state of complete fear of going out.
Take care, Sam and stay safe.
 

Enevhar Aldarion

Well-Known Member
There is now nothing new in this thread other than the basic feedback from when it was released.
Now the idea is to keep the spellfragments but bring them all into the first 2 levels (so we can reproduce this thread later? again? for again more prizes?) and then add new prizes to the 3rd level. essentially telling you want MORE prizes., to me thats the same as asking for helicopter money.

Those are pointles, and not even ideas. I could make an idea to give every player 5000 diamonds and 500 hours of timeboosters.
That's not an idea, thats just pointless. so from now on this thread is nothing more than being pointless. even if it's get voted upon, once it's reaches headquarters it can go directly into the bin, not even worth looking at.
I have honestly lost track of all the options and changes that have happened in almost 300 comments, but I do not think what I would like to see matches up with the exact suggestion. All I feel is that the first fight of each floor should not offer the exact same prizes. A harder encounter should reward better prizes, even if all that means, for example, is the possible 3 CC reward from the first fight on the first floor becomes a 4 CC reward for the first fight on the second floor and a 5 CC reward from the first fight from the third floor. If this small increase in scale were done from 1st to 2nd to 3rd floor for all the small rewards, they could take the spell fragments out of the 3rd floor fights completely and not replace them with anything else and the 3rd floor would still be more worth completing. The percentage of players who complete all three floors and want fragments from those 3rd floor chests has to be minimal.
 

Ashrem

Well-Known Member
There is now nothing new in this thread other than the basic feedback from when it was released.
Now the idea is to keep the spellfragments but bring them all into the first 2 levels (so we can reproduce this thread later? again? for again more prizes?) and then add new prizes to the 3rd level. essentially telling you want MORE prizes., to me thats the same as asking for helicopter money.
You are reading things which are not there. More fragments in the first floor, less in the second floor and some other options, (less or none) in the third floor and some different options.
 

Risen Malchiah

Well-Known Member
There is now nothing new in this thread other than the basic feedback from when it was released.
Now the idea is to keep the spellfragments but bring them all into the first 2 levels (so we can reproduce this thread later? again? for again more prizes?) and then add new prizes to the 3rd level. essentially telling you want MORE prizes., to me thats the same as asking for helicopter money.
This isn't about helicopter prizes. It's about shifting the prevalence of spell fragments from the 2nd floor to the 1st floor. And about eliminating fragments entirely on the 3rd floor to make way for alternative prizes which better represent the difficulty of that level. I've followed along with this thread from the beginning and it's evolved a lot since it began. And when the first poll was active, there was enormous support for it, with the most objections having more to do with a wording that implied something different than intended. We've now refined the proposal to better reflect the discussion, while also being careful *not* to ask for too much and leaving it open for Inno to decide what to replace the fragments with.
 

samidodamage

Well-Known Member
the first fight of each floor should not offer the exact same prizes. A harder encounter should reward better prizes,
While I think this is a good suggestion, my thought is that it needs a separate thread; imo part of the problem with this thread has been way too many Spire ideas bouncing off each other. That conversation might have been better in a General Discussion thread (just food for thought for future ideas that could get complicated :) )
I've given up on trying to follow the evolution of this thread, and am now focused on exactly what the reworked suggestion summary states:
The recommendation has 2 parts:
1. Re-balance the spell fragments between the Gateway and High halls by significantly increasing them in the Gateway and reducing them by an offsetting amount in the High Halls. The re-balance means that non-spell fragment rewards are reduced in the Gateway and increased in the High Halls.
2. Replace all spell fragment rewards in the Laboratory with similar value rewards.
^^Good job there, sam!
This along with the new title makes it clear that this thread is ONLY about Spell Fragments. While there may be some recommendations added regarding what players consider 'similar value rewards', I think bringing any other perceived deficiencies of the Spire into this conversation would derail it once again.
 

PaNonymeB

Well-Known Member
There is now nothing new in this thread other than the basic feedback from when it was released.
Now the idea is to keep the spellfragments but bring them all into the first 2 levels (so we can reproduce this thread later? again? for again more prizes?) and then add new prizes to the 3rd level. essentially telling you want MORE prizes., to me thats the same as asking for helicopter money.
The re-balance means that non-spell fragment rewards are reduced in the Gateway and increased in the High Halls.
So the non-spell fragment rewards we want to add in later stages would replace rewards removed and replaced by sfs in Gateway. They don't come from nowhere.

Note : I think adding new rewards such as troop instants in the Spire should be a separate idea
 

Risen Malchiah

Well-Known Member
So the non-spell fragment rewards we want to add in later stages would replace rewards removed and replaced by sfs in Gateway. They don't come from nowhere.

Note : I think adding new rewards such as troop instants in the Spire should be a separate idea
That might be true for the swapping of prizes in the 1st or 2nd level. But since the fragments being removed from the 3rd level are not being added to the 1st & 2nd level, then new prizes would be possible. Giving examples of what those potential prizes could be isn't a bad idea, and can easily mention troop instants as one possibility, saving us from needing an entire new thread about that. Inno could always look at the idea and decide something other than troop instants would be better, but at least the idea would be presented.
 

sam767

Active Member
Those are pointles, and not even ideas. I could make an idea to give every player 5000 diamonds and 500 hours of timeboosters.
That's not an idea, thats just pointless. so from now on this threas is nothing more than being pointless. even if it's get voten upon, once it's reaches headquarters it can go directly into the bin, not even worth looking at.
I'm so confused. With a lot of help from the folks here, the language in the suggestion appears to me to be unambiguous. Would you please help me understand what has confused you?
 

Ashrem

Well-Known Member
Now the idea is to keep the spellfragments but bring them all into the first 2 levels
Again, that is false. Is that you are too frustrated with the idea to actually bother to read it, or is your continued misinterpretation deliberate?

The goal as stated is about 2/3 as many fragments, all in the first two levels (most of the min the first level). None of the fragments from the third level appear anywhere else. I'm not sure why you have so much trouble interpreting the words "Replace all spell fragment rewards in the Laboratory with similar value rewards." it seems like fairly clear U.S. English to me and clearly results in a 1/3 reduction of the total fragments in the spire, to be replaced by other things.
 

Kekune

Well-Known Member
I dislike the change to this proposal that includes changing the first floor. My concern with the last version was that it wasn't specific enough, but I liked the basic concept: leave the first floor alone, change the second floor a little, change the third floor a lot. It just needed more details.

Now the proposal includes adding spell fragments to the first floor and taking other prizes away. I would not support this. Small cities value those other prizes, too. The fragments aren't the only reason to play the spire, for cities of any size. I'd think that further stacking fragments into the first floor will just be frustrating for smaller cities who can only do the first floor.
 

Ashrem

Well-Known Member
Now the proposal includes adding spell fragments to the first floor and taking other prizes away. I would not support this. Small cities value those other prizes, too. The fragments aren't the only reason to play the spire, for cities of any size. I'd think that further stacking fragments into the first floor will just be frustrating for smaller cities who can only do the first floor.
Fair enough, but the overall value of stacking (even 30%) additional fragments could be easily handled by a small shift in the chances of getting fragments vs time instants. And to really know what is acceptable, we'd need to understand what value the developers place on fragments. They might be perfectly fine adding more fragments to the first floor without reducing other prizes, but we can only ask for one thing at a time.


One example:
1593614238553.png


Change the percentages to 15/15/70, and you've added over 15% fragments to 100 iterations of that box at a relatively small reduced chance of winning something other than fragments (5 fewer of each/100 trips) (in that box). Or if they place a low value on fragments, it could be accomplished by leaving the coin and time instants alone, and splitting the 20 for 1250 into 15% for 1250 and 5% for 2750, so there are 30% more fragments available across 100 instances with no reduction in the other prizes.

The question is:
whether extra fragments are sufficiently worth the reduced risk (for the only people it applies too, which is people who do most or all of floor one, but do not also complete floor two by which point they'd get something else in compensation putting them back to even) to offset the value in making the second floor more appealing.​

Perhaps a counter thread, with extra fragments (in exchange for nothing) is in order?

(edit :strike through was a careless calculation and I'm not going to bother to do it again. It boils down to using an increase in the chance of getting fragments and a corresponding reduction to the chance of the other two, to give the same list of prizes but a different ratio.)
 
Last edited: