Concise writing

[Sprite1313]

I can't find the lottery numbers.

I am enjoying the thread, though.

Hmmm…sounds like some shenanigans. Maybe somebody erased them with the heretofore missing magic accomplish button?

I see that my “super secret recipe for the best chocolate chip cookies” was mysteriously deleted from my post.

 

[defiantoneks]

Actually, it's an interesting technique and I do appreciate your honesty. However, there are two problems: First, you are relying on others to accurately understand and present fairly what was said. The "cliff notes" versions you get may distort things in the direction of the one writing the notes. Second, you may miss some points entirely. Responders usually respond to specific words rather than to the whole thing and thus may miss the actual point or points altogether.

true. but it gets me to the point of "how important was this" "is it a real issue and does it affect me" etc. at that point i may backtrack to the original post, but 9/10 it's like "ok, saw enough, moving on".

 

[Genefer]

In my literature and writing class in college a fellow student asked our professor the required length of the assigned essay - his response was,

"The purpose of the essay is the demonstration of your level of mastery in writing a thorough and effective argument relative to the intended audience and the required length is whatever is necessary to accomplish the objective. Also, keep in mind this is not writing composition you will not successfully complete this course, because you know how to use punctuation."


In philosophy, all 3 of my professors, restricted the argument to 1 page, 12-point Times New Roman, and double spaced.


As an Anthropology major, I spent 2 years writing research papers, requiring a minimum number of words.


Effective written communication is measured by the intended audience.


In a public forum, such as this, the writer chooses the audience by their willingness, ability, and desire to communicate their idea or argument to engage all members of the forum or only a few.


It is difficult to communicate ideas within a casual forum when your writing experience was predominantly acquired through formal writing, which requires the writer to leave no stone left unturned.


Negative and belittling comments directed at another forum participant over their writing style, or an error is petty.


If you don't want to read the lengthy, though most likely thorough post, it is not required, and to comment only serves to degrade and humiliate a fellow member.


Too, To, There, Their, They're, its, it's...... I think all of us are able to infer the intent when these errors are made, and providing instruction in the assumption the writer does not know which is appropriate while ignoring the possibility of error, only serves to degrade and humiliate a fellow member.

 

[Katwick]

Short and concise, but probably not sweet.

 

[mucksterme]

It’s “misread” not “miss read”.

perhaps he was talking about his third grade teacher

 

[Katwick]

Too, To, There, Their, They're, its, it's...... I think all of us are able to infer the intent when these errors are made, and providing instruction in the assumption the writer does not know which is appropriate ...

 

[Katwick]

I see that my “super secret recipe for the best chocolate chip cookies” was mysteriously deleted

Be careful with what you complain about.

 

[Sprite1313]

Be careful with what you complain about.
View attachment 15522

LMAO

 

[quin629]

perhaps he was talking about his third grade teacher

Also, 'Miss Read' is the pen name of an author who wrote a marvelous series of books centered around a school in a small English village. Highly recommend!

 

[Sprite1313]

Also, 'Miss Read' is the pen name of an author who wrote a marvelous series of books centered around a school in a small English village. Highly recommend!

Ooh, I will have to give those a try.

 

[ajqtrz]

Too, To, There, Their, They're, its, it's...... I think all of us are able to infer the intent when these errors are made, and providing instruction in the assumption the writer does not know which is appropriate while ignoring the possibility of error, only serves to degrade and humiliate a fellow member.

You may be right that the grammar correction wasn't necessary, but as a former college professor teaching English composition for returning adults, among other things, I can assure you many adults do not recognize the differences between "to," "too" and "two" as well as all the other homonym variations. But as I did say, you may be right and I, perhaps, should have left it out. It wasn't that it wasn't clear what the writer meant.

Correcting grammatical errors is a violation of forum rule #4.

https://us.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/forum-rules.702/

Thanks. I didn't realize correcting grammar was against the rules. I've made such mistakes as you can tell if you follow this thread. But I rather prefer people pointing out my grammar and syntax errors, as it helps me be a better writer. Three more things to say about this and then I'll stop. The grammar correction was made as a jest, hence the "LOL" I wasn't particularly upset about it or anything of the sort. Second, it wasn't the point of the post and thus, I must therefore, apologize for having shifted my own thread and directed people's attention away from the main points. And third, because I did that, the post was, by my own definition, not as concise as it could have been.

AJ

 

[Siorse]

Rule #4 ALSO states--"On the other hand it is not allowed to make uninvited remarks about typos, writing styles, etc. If the grammar/spelling of a user is that bad, that the content gets lost, you can use the "report post" feature to report the post, an admin or mod will then deal with it."
Italics and underlining mine.
So according to the rules of the forum no one should be criticizing AJ wordiness either.

Just sayin'

By the way, some people probably appreciate his style of writing.
I do as I find that-for me-he puts his ideas/thoughts across quite well.
The salient points are easy to follow and his vocabulary is varied and knowledgeable without being pedantic.

 

[mucksterme]

but as a former college professor teaching English composition for returning adults, among other things, I can assure you many adults do not recognize the differences between "to," "too" and "two" as well as all the other homonym variations.

Those things also bug me when it is obvious they aren't just typos or mental lapses.
By mental lapse I mean people like me whose fingers are much slower than our brains and so sometimes just fill in what they think they heard.
You can generally tell if the person knows the correct word if they use it elsewhere.
The only time I grammar check people on social media is if they say something like, "You our to stupid to understand."
Or, if they so maul the language that it is uninterpretable.

But on the "to, too, there, their" subject.
I am more bothered by someone who obviously does not know the correct word.
Such as;
Allowed - aloud
lose - loose
advise - advice
sense - since
passed - past

to name a few

and don't even get me started on "I seen" ugh

 

[Iyapo]

So according to the rules of the forum no one should be criticizing AJ wordiness either.

it is not allowed to make uninvited remarks about typos, writing styles, etc.

Aj started a thread on concise writing. That is an invitation to comment.

 

[ajqtrz]

Those things also bug me when it is obvious they aren't just typos or mental lapses.
By mental lapse I mean people like me whose fingers are much slower than our brains and so sometimes just fill in what they think they heard.
You can generally tell if the person knows the correct word if they use it elsewhere.
The only time I grammar check people on social media is if they say something like, "You our to stupid to understand."
Or, if they so maul the language that it is uninterpretable.

But on the "to, too, there, their" subject.
I am more bothered by someone who obviously does not know the correct word.
Such as;
Allowed - aloud
lose - loose
advise - advice
sense - since
passed - past

to name a few

and don't even get me started on "I seen" ugh

After realizing my mistake I think, in the future I'll try your approach. Thanks.

@Iyapo I agree. I started it as a discussion of concise writing and while I take issue with how people characterize my writing style, I don't mind the criticism as long as it is an actual critique. Not helpful things are those which express an opinion but give no examples or useful advice in how to change it.

And, I've learned that there is a difference between a "wall of text" and a large block of writing, well organized and without the boring stuff that drags our brains into mush as we struggle to figure out what in world the author is actually trying to say. The latter is a "wall of text." The former, I believe, invites reading. I try to be the former rather than the latter. That many judge the post by the length alone, is, I think, a sad commentary on our societies reading standards.

Yet, the biggest thing I've learned from this thread is that I am too quick to respond to grammar errors. Mucksterme, and others are right.

AJ

 

[elvenbee]

Matter of fact, I am currently reading Tom Clancy's The Cardinal and the Kremlin, an older runaway best seller, and I've already spotted three typos.

Oddly.. I LOVE finding typos in books like that, it feels like my own secret treasure lol c:

 

[elvenbee]

Define "excessive." Or, how about this. Make a statement about something complex and defend it in less than two paragraphs. Like, for instance, you stand on natural rights. Or, perhaps, how evolutionary theory predicts (or doesn't) economic realities. Notice you can probably make the statement in two paragraphs, but to defend it you have to think about what others think, the objections they have to your view, and how or why those objections don't undermine that view.

Let's agree that, to you, because you are "not in this forum to read" anything that appears to you to be "excessive" my writing is "excessive." So why are you here? If you don't like reading my texts, why? You read books, which are much, much longer (are they all fiction because that might explain it). Do you only read the short, pithy, often snarky replies? How long is too long for you?

In any case there are two things with which I do have a problem when it comes to critiquing my work here. First, I have a problem with labeling what I write a "wall of text" as if there is something inappropriate about me writing the way I do. I defend my writing style and don't appreciate when it's put down as in appropriate. There are few rules in this forum about length but those are probably more about technical issues than writing styles. Second, I really have a problem with "I didn't read it, but here are my comments on it...." That is disingenuous.

@Iyapo You say: "I could always just read the title. AJ...pontificating about concise writing. lol"

First, do you really want all the ideas of every post put into the title? Can anybody really expect that is an effective way to communicate? The statement appears to me to be a bit "tongue in cheek" and I hope it is.

Second, "pontificating" has negative connotations. One dictionary defines it as: "
express one's opinions in a way considered annoyingly pompous and dogmatic." In thinking about it I do wonder how difficult it must be for those who are experts in their field to not sound "annoyingly pompous and dogmatic" to those who don't recognize they know of what they are speaking. Should the, in order to not sound "annoyingly pompous and dogmatic" dumb down their words and approach? Would that do a better job of actually presenting ideas?

And finally, the whole point of my post was to discuss concise writing. I know you read the title so you should have got at least that. Now you do seem to imply my writing is not concise. By the definition and discussion I have given, show me where I've not been concise. There may be a place or two, but in all my postings here I you will probably not find more than that. Since you have chosen to imply I'm not, how about showing how I'm not concise.


1) Why post anything?

2) Yep, "wall-y" because the writing is unclear. Concise writing seldom has this problem because what often makes writing confusing is the addition of asides, unneeded side journey's to other ideas and so on.

3) And "yep" writing needs a road map of sorts. Each paragraph should have something it contributes to the overall flow of the piece and the person reading should sense a forward progression. "First," "Second" and so on, especially previewed with a something like, "I see three reasons this might be..." are powerful road signs.

To all: I didn't expect such strong reactions to what I consider a clear concept. Concise is not necessarily short. I've laid out some ideas of what concise means to me and why implying it's inappropriate is, inaccurate. I've also suggested some honesty is in need when a person doesn't read the long post and then decides to condemn it for being "too long." The value of the text cannot be determined without reading the text.

AJ

I love how you took what I said and twisted it. I got through your "Let's agree that" paragraph and stopped.

What I said - "I'm just not on this forum to read walls of text like yours"
What you said I said - "not in this forum to read"

Obviously there is a VAST difference between the two. I've read comments, I've interacted with others in this forum. Darielle will post two paragraph responses and I do read those. NO, I do not read your 5+ paragraph responses, because this is supposed to be a fun game and I don't need to read 1 person's thesis to play the game, enjoy the forum, or other forum members.

 

[elvenbee]

Rule #4 ALSO states--"On the other hand it is not allowed to make uninvited remarks about typos, writing styles, etc. If the grammar/spelling of a user is that bad, that the content gets lost, you
So according to the rules of the forum no one should be criticizing AJ wordiness either.

Just sayin'

By the way, some people probably appreciate his style of writing.
I do as I find that-for me-he puts his ideas/thoughts across quite well..

AJ started the thread and invited the criticism upon himself, so that's different. It applies to uninvited remarks.

While some may enjoy it, that's your opinion. Others aren't here to read a one page thesis on the forum every time he comments, so we don't interact with it typically, and for myself, I wouldn't have ever said anything and continued to scroll past his comments and read the responses to his comment, but he started the thread and invited criticism.

 

[Iyapo]

I make far too many grammatical errors to dog others. Your instead of you're is my most consistent error and for some reason I can not separate alot into two words.

Things like this:

You our to stupid to understand.

Or "I no what you mean" I usually blame on second or fifth language errors. They picked a sounds right word. So close!

I also play games with hilariously simplistic translation tools. To communicate you must eliminate all words that might confuse the program.

See dick run(will translate badly because D d). See Jane jump.

 

[Sodbury]

Second, "pontificating" has negative connotations.

It can, but it's actually a cool description. It may suggest that you're lording it over folks as pope-like figure (pontifex) might, but look at the word's roots and you can take it as "making a bridge" (pont: bridge; facere: to make), which strikes me as a super complimentary way to describe communication.