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    Your Elvenar Team

Concise writing

ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
HA! @ajqtrz, you got better for a while and now you are back at the finger vomitus. Honestly, my eyes glaze over and my finger, on its own, scrolls down when I see that stuff. i.e. a wall of text.
Maybe if you pretended you were stranded on a desert island and only had one small piece of paper available to write on, you could prioritize your ideas and reduce the wordiness?
It's STILL TL/DR!
keep trying!
Six Paragraphs. Here's an outline to make it easier to follow.

1) Should you critique something you haven't read, especially if you find fault with the person for having written it as they did?
2) If you critique someone's post how is the one reading your critique to know if you actually read the original? And, if they can't be sure, what does that do to your credibility?
3) Wordiness may be a problem, but that's something you could only know if you read the post and hasn't been addressed as part of the idea of a "wall of text" except tangentially.
4) "Wall of text" is subjective so it's a lot of guesswork as to figuring out what might cause a reader to see it as a wall of text. In the end, since it's subjective it may not even be the writers' fault.
5) The reader should take responsibility for his/her own inability to tolerate long passages in places he/she may not expect them. Others have read the text and thus proven it can be read, even when the text isn't entertaining. Either that or take responsibility for any comments about the text which were made without reading the text.
6) Is the only type of writing allowed in a forum writing which entertains?

BODY
Of course there's the criticism of "I don't think you know of which you speak" since you both imply it's "vomitus" (Which, I assume has to do with appeal of vomit?) and "TL/DR" which means you have no way of knowing it's something you shouldn't read because you didn't read it. Tactfully, I'd suggest when you run into something you don't wish to read you don't imply its quality with such remarks. It's probably okay to mention that you didn't read it, but to add a judgement really undermines your own credibility. After all, if you make comments on my ideas without reading them, and, I might add, assume you already know what I think on a subject, why should anyone believe your comments on other posts since they can't be sure you've actually read those posts?

If you think about it, if you say something like: "I think Bob is wrong," how am I to know you even read Bob's post? Was his post larger than you could tolerate? Maybe your standard is more tolerant than mine and I see Bob's text as a wall and assume you would too. Now what? Do I assume you didn't read it? Since I don't really know your standard of reading...where you cut it off and where you put TL-DR, I have to assume that maybe your response is actually informed by having read the post.... or maybe it isn't. Who knows?

As for the wordiness, you may be right. I do sometimes go back and see places where I used more complex (sentence and phrase) writing structures where simpler ones would have sufficed. In fact, I just noticed in the previous sentence where I could have reduced the word count. I struck the extra words out. So, yes, I can do better. But my word choice is not really the problem here, is it. The problem, as you say, is that your eyes "glaze over" when you see a large block of text that you characterize as a "wall of text." Maybe the problem isn't in the writing? Maybe it's in your reading habits? But we'll never know as you don't read blocks of text over a certain length.

In the end the whole "wall of text" is subjective in most people minds. What they are actually saying is, "I don't enjoy reading much in this context, so I'll skip it." If they then go on to criticize the writer they are making the mistake of making their disdain for long texts the fault of the writer. How can their feelings about a bunch of words on a page be the fault of the writer who is not their teacher and isn't making them read those words?

The writer isn't responsible for the reader's inability to confront long passages without feeling sick. He/she may be responsible for sloppy and bad writing, but since the reaction that leads to TL-DR is not with how the text was written, but with it's length, how badly it's written is irrelevant. In some contexts the long passages seem, to some, out of place so they react. But that's just their emotions talking. Often it's like a child who is first assigned a "chapter book." It seems a bit daunting and they usually react with "do I have to?" It may be the only long passages some people accept are those in fiction or perhaps at work. Every other form of writing may be reduced to "am I entertained, or not?" Which brings me to the final response.

Is the only purpose of writing in this forum to entertain? Should it be? I do know it's probably a good thing to make writing entertaining, but is it necessary? If it's not necessary and someone, like myself, writes something to inform, challenge, and/or create interest in a subject, is that bad?

AJ

ps. You really should see a doctor aboult that finger doing it's thing without your control. Out of control fingers can be dangerous. Think "The Button" and the President! Yikes!
 
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ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
“Brevity is the soul of wit.” -- Shakespeare

“The secret of a good sermon is to have a good beginning and a good ending; and to have the two as close together as possible.”
--George Burns

“If you can say it in a paragraph, don’t write a book.” -- Frank Sonnenberg

“Brevity is the sister of talent.” -- Anton Chekhov

“The greater a speech, the longer it can be. The longer a speech, the greater it ought to be.” -- Mokokoma Mokhonoana

and so on. ;)

1) Now if I just want to be witty I'd not read Shakespeare. His plays have 5 acts and take over 2 hours to deliver. Remember many in the audiences stood up for the whole thing.

2) George Burns didn't go to synagogue so how would he know?

3) Actually, if you can say it in one word, use it. But what if you can't? All things take space to say, some more space than others. Fitting the greatest ideas into the smallest of spaces may be the goal of every concise writer, but even the smallest of things take some space and the bigger the idea the more space.

4) Edward Everett spoke for 2 hours at Gettysburg, just before Lincoln. Lincoln spoke for 2 minutes. Everett wrote to Lincoln, saying: "I should be glad if I could flatter myself that I came as near to the central idea of the occasion, in two hours, as you did in two minutes." Sometimes a few words can do, but usually they are a bit longer than Lincoln's address. Even Checkov's plays average about 90 pages each when their story could be reduced to about two paragraphs.

5) Jonathon Edwards full address, "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" took four hours to deliver. Edwards spoke in a monotone, seldom looking up from his notes. At the end people were weeping. Martin Luther King's "I Have a Dream" is composed of pieces from his many other speeches. What makes a speech powerful is seldom the speech itself, but the right speaker and the right speech, in the right place at the right time.

AJ
 

Iyapo

Personal Conductor
In the end the whole "wall of text" is subjective in most people minds. What they are actually saying is, "I don't enjoy reading much in this context, so I'll skip it.
No, @ajqtrz . What they are saying, what has been repeated for years, is that you are causing eye strain. Eye strain leads to headaches.
The writer isn't responsible for the reader's inability to confront long passages without feeling sick.
You are right. You are not responsible. Players who just can't stand it will put you on ignore. Your absolute refusal to modify your formatting or use less words is a deliberate and conscious choice. So when those with eyestrain give you a tl;dr, wear that badge with pride!

tl;dr = you do not get to give me a headache. Moving on.
 
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ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
No, @ajqtrz . What they are saying, what has been repeated for years, is that you are causing eye strain. Eye strain leads to headaches.

You are right. You are not responsible. Players who just can't stand it will put you on ignore. Your absolute refusal to modify your formatting or use less words is a deliberate and conscious choice. So when those with eyestrain give you a tl;dr, wear that badge with pride!
If it's really eye strain and "eye strain" isn't a metaphor for "it's difficult" as I've always taken it to be, the solution is to increase the font size. Any person whose eyes can't read a few paragraphs at a reasonable font size, should see a doctor. For most people, headaches from eye strain only occur when you read too for hours, or you aren't reading in the proper light or font size. None of which is the fault of the writer.

Now of course, if "eye strain" is actually short hand for "it makes me uncomfortable" I refer you to my previous post.

In addition, can you tell me how you came up with I'm making a "conscious and deliberate choice." Last time I checked what I'm actually conscious of and what choices I make take place in my head. How do you read my mind? If you didn't then what words did I put out there that say, something like, "I am consciously and deliberately choosing to keep my formatting and word choice so that you can strain your eyes?" or something like that?

That fact that most of my posts are much, much shorter ought to undermine such a conclusion. I mean if I was really some diabolical person who delighted in giving people eye strain, wouldn't I write all my posts with "too many words?"

"TL-DR" is fine, even if it's sort of silly. Should I send a letter to the newspaper telling them I didn't read their editorials? Or speak up at a political convention and claim I didn't listen to the speeches? But okay, "TL-DR" isn't so bad because it does tell me that reader didn't have the ability or desire to read a few paragraphs. What's not fine with me is the criticism of my writing when someone hasn't read my post. When they follow up with "it's a wall of text" or, worse, "you are doing this deliberately." The first goes to the idea that you can't "tell a book by it's cover" so why are you judging the quality of the post by it's length?, and the latter to a personal attack on my character. This is not a good thing when such an attack is based merely on how they feel when they encounter something I wrote in a format they don't like.

The thing is, though, my motives are irrelevant when it comes to the question of if something is a "wall of text," or not. I could intend ten thousand things but the questions asked are: if what I wrote is concise or not; can something concise be more than a paragraph; and, finally, if the negative "wall of text" should be applied to something concise even if it's a few paragraphs long? None of these questions is answered by asking why I write as I sometimes do and knowing why I do still doesn't answer the three questions asked.

Your frustration, I'm guessing, is that you can't persuade me to change something you wish I'd change. You don't like reading large amounts of text so you want to remove them from your forum experience. You can ignore me, of course, but the ignore button isn't set by the length so in doing so you would be ignoring other, shorter things I might write and you might want to read.

So you come across those long posts, and then what? What I do hear you and others saying is, "Please, sir, could you give us that in smaller bites?" The thing about doing so is that the amount of verbiage to do so would be greater than putting it all in one post. But such actions would also be a bit insulting. I mean doing so is, in my mind, just "dumbing down" things as if readers aren't smart enough to handle a series of ideas in a row but have to be spoon fed one idea at a time. As adults we, I think, should be able to take a few paragraphs in stride. That some apparently can't and insist on complaining about the fact, is really, really sad.

AJ
 

ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
I don't enjoy reading much in this context, so I'll skip it
And I boiled it down with an outline too!

Any case, if you don't enjoy reading it and only read what you enjoy in this forum, you have the right to skip it. Thanks, that's the point. But of course, did you write to your paper's editor today to tell him/her you didn't read the editorial? I'm sure such information would be really important for everybody to know. Maybe he/she will print the notification tomorrow. ;>) LOL!

AJ
 

Silly Bubbles

You cant pop them all
@ajqtrz This is how I see it. You enjoy writing long posts and that's fine, there's not enough happiness in this world. Some people don't enjoy reading long posts and that's fine too, there's a lot of other things to do that are more enjoyable to them. So it comes down to what is more important to you, writing long posts or being read by others?
I'd just pick one or the other, accept the consequences and move on.

And, I do agree that there's no need to be rude about long posts, we don't have to read it if we don't want to. It's our choice to miss out on the information not yours. Again, we need to make a choice to read it or not, accept the consequences and move on.

PS: If you do want others to read your posts there's no other way than making them shorter just like others do.
 

Myne

Oh Wise One
And I boiled it down with an outline too!

Any case, if you don't enjoy reading it and only read what you enjoy in this forum, you have the right to skip it. Thanks, that's the point. But of course, did you write to your paper's editor today to tell him/her you didn't read the editorial? I'm sure such information would be really important for everybody to know. Maybe he/she will print the notification tomorrow. ;>) LOL!

AJ
I don't get the paper.
 

Iyapo

Personal Conductor
You are visually poking people in the eye. This has been brought to your attention for years, yet you keep doing it. What am I to conclude from that? That you are doing it consciously and deliberately because you have no desire to fix it? Or that you haven't the wit to fix it? Pick one.

This has nothing to do with your content. People who say it is a "wall of text" are not commenting on your content.

It is a wall of text, it is difficult to read, it grays out, it blurs. People say this and you twist it about and make it all about your complex reasoning or advanced vocabulary.

You do not have any responsibility to change your writing style but as long as you keep poking people in the eye you should accept the occasional poke back

TL;DR blah blah blah
 
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Myne

Oh Wise One
You are visually poking people in the eye. This has been brought to your attention for years, yet you keep doing it. What am I to conclude from that? That you are doing it consciously and deliberately? Or that you haven't the wit to fix it? Pick one.

This has nothing to do with your content. People who say it is a "wall of text" are not commenting on your content.

It is a wall of text, it is difficult to read, it grays out, it blurs. People say this and you twist it about and make it all about your complex reasoning or advanced vocabulary.

You do not have any responsibility to change your writing style but as long as you keep poking people in the eye you should accept the occasional poke back

TL;DR blah blah blah
What she said.
 

Katwick

Cartographer
"Please, sir, could you give us that in smaller bites?
Mathematics is art of saying less and less about more and more. The criteria is "Necessary and Sufficient."

Screenshot_20221102-234840_Google News.jpg


But if you've ever attempted to wade through even an elegant mathematical proof, you'll appreciate the commentary that's the soul of expository writing.
 

Siorse

Active Member
Today's Grammarphobia blog is delightful.
Thank you for sharing that! I was unaware of this site-being someone who finds the internet filled mainly with time wasters and drivel-I don't do a lot of surfing the web.

I'd rather read a good book. Or entertaining posts on this forum lol!
 

ajqtrz

Chef - loquacious Old Dog
Allow me to sing the praises of the most important element of any readable presentation.

https://www.justinmind.com/blog/white-space-design/
You are absolutely correct that white space in a static format like a web page, magazine, or newspaper makes thing more readable. A long time ago Marshall McLuhan wrote of cool and hot media noting how the static nature of print was hot, while the dynamic nature of other media -- television, speech, telephone and all those thing which are changing right before your eyes -- were cool. He noted that white space "cooled" hot media and made it more interesting while the movement of cool media could be more focused if you limited the movement by making the background more static. Since forum posts are static they would be considered hot media and benefit from space around them. Unfortunately, we don't have they layout tools to do this and we can only fill the space we get with words. Or perhaps, with some graphics, though such an approach would probably take way to long to find the proper graphics for the message.

AJ
 
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