Dwarven Armorer

[Ashrem]

I presume

...

edit: In any event, changing methodlogies in midstream for a vote because one feels the results warrant it is sub-par.

 

[SoggyShorts]

there is probably a good reason for sucha big group saying no.

I haven't read one.

the last thing 19 chest fellowships need is an extra boost to make it easier to get 19 chests and top the rankings.

Translation: "I don't want everyone to have the choice of having a prize if it means that guy over there always gets a prize."
An overwhelming majority of voters don't care about those 8 fellowships always getting an extra cookie if it means they can get one too.

" I propose that everyone gets 150.000 free diamonds at cristmas events"

Some of us understands that that makes no sense and will have repercussions. so we vote no, but the clear majority will vote yes.
I know this is an exaggeration but thats the whole point.

It's a nonsense point, (strawman) because it's so exaggerated. They are simply not the same thing.
One is a reward commensurate with effort and earned, the other is simply free stuff- essentially charity worth over $100 USD

 

[Ashrem]

What's more Trumpian, that, or complaining about a vote when you lose to the overwhelming majority?

My complaint (and the one he was addressing in the post you quote) isn't about the vote, but about not understanding unannounced changes in the way things are done, such as cutting the voting and/or counting off early. Which has, he's not wrong, been a popular tactic of certain groups for the last couple of decades.

 

[SoggyShorts]

My complaint.... unannounced changes...... cutting the voting and/or counting off early.

Yup, valid points, but in this case the good guys* won so I poke a little fun.--->

*objectively in all things those who agree with me are "the good guys". Obviously.

 

[Astram]

My complaint (and the one he was addressing in the post you quote) isn't about the vote, but about not understanding unannounced changes in the way things are done, such as cutting the voting and/or counting off early. Which has, he's not wrong, been a popular tactic of certain groups for the last couple of decades.

Fine, I will take your criticism and if it will please you, complain to the NEW CM about it.
I guess it does not pay to try to proactively support the majority of forum members.
So I won't close any votes early from now on and if that means Ideas dont get forwarded as fast then so be it.

If you want to change the Idea process, voting requirements, or voter ID's, please bring it up to the NEW CM.

 

[Lelanya]

@Astram I think you are doing a great job. Thank you

 

[Yelu]

So if it was 18 to 8 it would get the same treatment? Because that would be an identical overwhelming ratio. My recollection is that there was a time when we could view the vote results and have an idea if 40 people who have never come to the forums in the last year suddenly all showed up to load the vote in favour of an idea. Just one more thing that seems a little different.

Most of the people who participated in this thread are some of the best in-game players. People with knowledge, skills and great achievements.
It is true that the comfort of the forum - players was violated, but it also gave them an opportunity to express themselves.
"Just one more thing that seems a little different."

 

[SoggyShorts]

I guess it does not pay to try to proactively support the majority of forum members.

Honestly, I liked it, even aside from being on the winning side.
The Beta system requiring an 80% majority is really too high a bar for US forums where there are far too many... opinions... to reach such a majority.

You did well, and IMO your judgment was on-point.

 

[Killy-]

Oh sweet, when did they change getting 19 chests from "Pretty damn hard" to "free"?

19 chests isn't necessarily easy to archive, but for the players that are already doing it, this additional prize would be just free.

Until someone convince Inno, that people will spend money to get to 19 chests, I don't think we will see anything big in this chest anyway. However let's say we would get that big prize, I bet for many fellowships around 14-17 chests or so that wouldn't be a lot of fun. Most of those fellowships have a few players, who do care about the tournament and are making enough points for a 19 chest fs. So they can stay in there fs unhappy to not get the big prize, even so they do a lot of points, or more likely, they change into a fellowship with promise for 19 chests.

 

[Yavimaya]

Fine, I will take your criticism and if it will please you, complain to the NEW CM about it.
I guess it does not pay to try to proactively support the majority of forum members.
So I won't close any votes early from now on and if that means Ideas dont get forwarded as fast then so be it.

If you want to change the Idea process, voting requirements, or voter ID's, please bring it up to the NEW CM.

Hey, you are doing just fine and a great job helping us all. Don't let venting get to you. They are just venting and curious. I trust your judgment so far and you do have tons of support here. You were actually trying to help get it in sooner. That isn't some horrid evil thing. It was you just trying to be nice. Not everybody will always feel the same. Keep your judgement and confidence. You seem to always listen to us all and do your best to be polite and answer us all the best possible from what you know or are allowed to know and things you don't you forward to others for us to try to find out. We appreciate you and your time and hard work!

 

[SoggyShorts]

19 chests isn't necessarily easy to archive, but for the players that are already doing it, this additional prize would be just free.

I absolutely couldn't care less about those 8 fellowships. The overwhelming majority of players are not in those FS. There's also an argument to be made that they have in fact earned any reward given by the 19th chest now, or if it changes and is therefore not "Free"

Until someone convince Inno, that people will spend money to get to 19 chests, I don't think we will see anything big in this chest anyway.

Anything that increases player retention and enjoyment potentially increases sales.

However let's say we would get that big prize, I bet for many fellowships around 14-17 chests or so that wouldn't be a lot of fun. Most of those fellowships have a few players, who do care about the tournament and are making enough points for a 19 chest fs. So they can stay in there fs unhappy to not get the big prize, even so they do a lot of points, or more likely, they change into a fellowship with promise for 19 chests.

You were here when The spire and Blueprints were introduced, no?
Yes, there would be a bit of FS shuffling for some, but that new achievement, that striving towards a common goal, that growth and feeling of making progress as a team... well, there's literally nothing I've enjoyed more in my 6 years of Elvenar.

 

[Killy-]

I absolutely couldn't care less about those 8 fellowships. The overwhelming majority of players are not in those FS. There's also an argument to be made that they have in fact earned any reward given by the 19th chest now, or if it changes and is therefore not "Free"

Other players do care for it. I think the bonus prizes in chests 11-19 were not needed at all, because the prizes from the tournament itself are more than enough and are the reason why people do so many provinces in the first place. I don't think those players, who are already able to do extremly well in the tournament, should get even more stuff on top. I'd rather put some extra stuff in the first chests for those, who have a harder time with the tournament.

Anything that increases player retention and enjoyment potentially increases sales.

Well, I do believe, that just making the best game possible would earn more money, than making stuff annoying so that people spend money, to get rid of the annoyance. I just don't think, that Inno thinks the same way.

You were here when The spire and Blueprints were introduced, no?
Yes, there would be a bit of FS shuffling for some, but that new achievement, that striving towards a common goal, that growth and feeling of making progress as a team... well, there's literally nothing I've enjoyed more in my 6 years of Elvenar.

I wasn't there for the blueprints, but I remember the slowly progress towards 10 chests without a chicken and in the old tournament format, when 1600 points couldn't be archived with closed eyes and yes, it was fun to work towards that goal. My current fellowship had 19 chests and gold spire since week 1, so no fun there.^^

 

[mucksterme]

I guess it does not pay to try to proactively support the majority of forum members.
So I won't close any votes early from now on and if that means Ideas dont get forwarded as fast then so be it.

I don't know if you meant this to sound pissy but it does to me.
I have to take this comment to task.
It is not your place to "support the majority" while a vote is ongoing. Even if it looks obvious there may be people still mulling over the issue.
If people are told they have a certain length of time, then that should be stuck to.
And " if that means Ideas dont get forwarded as fast then so be it." Please. A couple of days isn't going to make that much difference with something like this.

 

[Yelu]

If people are told they have a certain length of time, then that should be stuck to.
And " if that means Ideas dont get forwarded as fast then so be it." Please. A couple of days isn't going to make that much difference with something like this.

Voting was not terminated earlier. It was possible to vote until the end of the 14-day period. For this reason, the percentages have also changed.
If you're going to talk about something, at least bother to check.Please!

 

[SoggyShorts]

Other players do care for it. ......... I don't think those players, who are already able to do extremly well in the tournament, should get even more stuff on top

I guess I just don't understand why players care about what players in other fellowships might get.

Well, I do believe, that just making the best game possible would earn more money, than making stuff annoying so that people spend money, to get rid of the annoyance. I just don't think, that Inno thinks the same way.

Yeah I've never liked the F2P business model (except the cosmetic ones), and P2W is an abomination, but I guess it works ($1.1 billion for inno games so far)

yes, it was fun to work towards that goal.

And that's all I'm looking for. I love my FS, but other than cleaning the trader and Net0 there's not much we are doing together in-game.
Everyone goes tot he top of the spire and everyone does whatever in the tournament. I don't even know how many chests we get. Not a clue because it's such a non-issue as a team.

I'd rather put some extra stuff in the first chests for those, who have a harder time with the tournament.

You're kidding with this, right?
Do you know how crazy easy it is to do 6x6? My city can sustainably cater 6 provinces to 6 stars by logging in once per week.
Taking the position that the bottom needs to have more rewards and the top does not is... blowing my mind tbh.

 

[Killy-]

I guess I just don't understand why players care about what players in other fellowships might get.

Not only other players, but more about what I would get and if I think it is reasonable or not and with all the prizes I am already getting from the tournament, I don't think it is reasonable.

Yeah I've never liked the F2P business model (except the cosmetic ones), and P2W is an abomination, but I guess it works ($1.1 billion for inno games so far)

Yeah, apparently it works, even so I always wonder, who's fault that is.

You're kidding with this, right?
Do you know how crazy easy it is to do 6x6? My city can sustainably cater 6 provinces to 6 stars by logging in once per week.
Taking the position that the bottom needs to have more rewards and the top does not is... blowing my mind tbh.

You could try to send the worst possible combination of troops in the fight and see if you can lose those fights, I think it is hard to achieve a defeat. I am surely not kidding, I don't think the top needs even more prizes, put it somewhere where "everyone" can get it. Why would I care how hard it is, I am not complaining about the free blueprint in chest 10 either.

 

[Ashrem]

They are just venting and curious.

Please don't psychoanalyze other people. I am not venting. The ability to exercise a vote relies on the rules not changing in mid-stream in a way which prevents some people from voting. The result of the vote is irelevant. Once the conditions for a vote are set, they should not be changed without a very good reason. One side doing better than the other is pretty much the worst possible reason to stop people from voting early and in the non-elvenar world is actually a favorite tactic of despotic governments.

If you want to change the Idea process, voting requirements, or voter ID's, please bring it up to the NEW CM.

My complaint is that you changed the process without notice. If you asked the CM if it was OK to cut the vote off early, I am happy to apologize. Otherwise, please don't imply that I'm the one who wants to change the process. I did not stop the voting early on a whim, and it was not my responsibility to make sure the vote wasn't stacked.

I guess I just don't understand why players care about what players in other fellowships might get.

C'mon, Soggy, as you've frequently alluded to yourself, making the tournament rankings visible automatically makes anything which affects them relevant to other players. The top Fellowships collecting 25 Dwarven armourers per week is inherently relevant to anyone who wants to compete for the top spot.

And that's all I'm looking for. I love my FS, but other than cleaning the trader and Net0 there's not much we are doing together in-game.
Everyone goes tot he top of the spire and everyone does whatever in the tournament. I don't even know how many chests we get. Not a clue because it's such a non-issue as a team.

If the tournament stats are irrelevant, why did you participate in testing Elvenstats? Are you saying that your FS doesn't look at a player's tournament performance as one of the criteria for joining you?

Most of the people who participated in this thread are some of the best in-game players. People with knowledge, skills and great achievements.
It is true that the comfort of the forum - players was violated, but it also gave them an opportunity to express themselves.
"Just one more thing that seems a little different."

Most maybe, but before you read too much into "most" you should probably consider:

• At least six people who posted in this thread had never posted before they added to this thread and every one of them spoke in support. (I can send you the names in a PM, but won't risk getting banned for calling them out publicly) At least a couple of those (I didn't check most) are from a single fellowship (along with one of the actual regular participants) which also has several associated fellowships and is the top tournament fellowship on one of the U.S. worlds so is already getting 19 chests every single week, and will benefit to the tune of 25 extra Dwarven armourers per week if this is passed.
• Not a single person who spoke against it was a new account. (I think every person who spoke against it is well known and experienced.)

Voting was not terminated earlier. It was possible to vote until the end of the 14-day period. For this reason, the percentages have also changed.
If you're going to talk about something, at least bother to check.Please!

Well that's false information. See:

Due to the overwhelming vote disparity in favor and in order to be included in the CM meeting this week I am closing the voting a day early. If we wait, then the idea cant be presented before the meeting this week.

 

[Yavimaya]

Please don't psychoanalyze other people. I am not venting. The ability to exercise a vote relies on the rules not changing in mid-stream in a way which prevents some people from voting. The result of the vote is irelevant. Once the conditions for a vote are set, they should not be changed without a very good reason. One side doing better than the other is pretty much the worst possible reason to stop people from voting early and in the non-elvenar world is actually a favorite tactic of despotic governments.

My complaint is that you changed the process without notice. If you asked the CM if it was OK to cut the vote off early, I am happy to apologize. Otherwise, please don't imply that I'm the one who wants to change the process. I did not stop the voting early on a whim, and it was not my responsibility to make sure the vote wasn't stacked.


C'mon, Soggy, as you've frequently alluded to yourself, making the tournament rankings visible automatically makes anything which affects them relevant to other players. The top Fellowships collecting 25 Dwarven armourers per week is inherently relevant to anyone who wants to compete for the top spot.

If the tournament stats are irrelevant, why did you participate in testing Elvenstats? Are you saying that your FS doesn't look at a player's tournament performance as one of the criteria for joining you?


Most maybe, but before you read too much into "most" you should probably consider:

• At least six people who posted in this thread had never posted before they added to this thread and every one of them spoke in support. (I can send you the names in a PM, but won't risk getting banned for calling them out publicly) At least a couple of those (I didn't check most) are from a single fellowship (along with one of the actual regular participants) which also has several associated fellowships and is the top tournament fellowship on one of the U.S. worlds so is already getting 19 chests every single week, and will benefit to the tune of 25 extra Dwarven armourers per week if this is passed.
• Not a single person who spoke against it was a new account. (I think every person who spoke against it is well known and experienced.)

Well that's false information. See:

Sorry, I didn't mean you specifically, I apologize if it came off that way and my bad! You are right about the preventing others from voting.

 

[Ashrem]

Sorry, I didn't mean you specifically, I apologize if it came off that way and my bad! You are right about the preventing others from voting.

It's not that big a deal, and it isn't really about me personally. When someone says "They are just...." that person has taken it upon themselves to express what every other person who spoke was thinking. I was clarifying my position. You might be right about what other people were doing, but maybe not.

 

[Astram]

Ashram,
I will answer you for clarity sake. I did not close voting and should have been more precise in the wording that I was forwarding to The CM; the Idea as approved based on the expected outcome. The vote disparity indicated the idea would pass. I may have jumped the gun on passing it along based on the limited opportunities to get ideas presented in November.

I did not change the process and advised explicitly that the issue of changing it should be brought to the New CM.

As for who voted, any player that has or creates a forum account can vote, including FS mates who personally benefit from the idea being voted on. Just as you can have your FS mates come to vote No.
Again, if you wish to suggest a change in the rules or procedures, please get in touch with the CM. As the New CM is from the EN server side, there may be a perspective difference on the rules and procedures.