How is this not "pushing"?

[edeba]

There was still lots to play on the game with the automation. The equivalent would be automation to collect your world map. If that were to happen, people would still plan their cities, play the tournaments, trade, etc. They would still be playing, but the time they spend on the game would be far high game quality time because really, the this is an area the developers have not kept up with in terms of preventing the task from feeling awful because it takes so long as you grow your map.

One of my praises of this game is that the game pieces have increased in size with the map, so we still have 4-8 of each tier manufacturie regardless of level. Other games I've played haven't done this so your map is 10-20 times bigger than when you started and you have to do 50-100 repetitive actions to do the same thing that 4-8 did early in the game.

In a way, I am going to suggest that developer of that previous game created so much drudgery in game maintenance because of poor game design through growth. I think the people that started it just wanted to play their game for the things people play games for, and get rid of the stuff that makes you dislike the game.

Some people will pay money for any cheat than can get. I don't understand the mentality. I want to enjoy the game, not find some automated device to play for me.

 

[DeletedUser4993]

I agree with you... But to remove all doubt the rules still should be posted in the game.



they could care less

My biggest pet peeve in the world "could care less" Really "could" needs to be couldn't! LOL

 

[Pheryll]

Grammatically, both "could care less" and "could not care less" are proper and can mean the same thing in pretty much the same context depending on the perspective. For the first, if it is in comparison to other issues, then for the issue desired they would always care less and for the other issues they would care more. For the second the care they show to the desired is so little that they are physically unable to show even less care. The central difference is one looks at a comparison to other issues, while the other looks at a minimum which cannot be breached, and most contexts in which the phrase is used will have elements of both being discussed.

 

[Salator]

For the first, if it is in comparison to other issues, .

But it was not in comparison to other issues....so, Wenvyrel is correct in saying that the correct grammar is "could not care less."

most contexts in which the phrase is used will have elements of both being discussed

That is highly doubtful. When the phrase, "I could / could not care less" is used, 999 out of 1000 times only one issue / value is being discussed and no 'comparison' is being made. Generally speaking, the correct usage of this phrase is "I could not care less" for that very reason. (If you would care to argue this outside of the forum, I would be happy to engage in a conversation....but, be warned, I majored in the English language in college and have been a Technical Writer all of my career (30+ years).

 

[edeba]

Self-elected police departments seem to be everywhere...

I didn't know we had a self-elected Elvenar police department.

 

[SoggyShorts]

By your definition ANYONE DONATING FP's TO ANYONE ELSE'S AW would be breaking the rules.

Who said that?
The developers have stated that "pushing" is against the rules. What is unclear, and what I am asking for clarification on is what they consider pushing.

• Is a 5 KP swap thread pushing? Obviously not, don't be ridiculous. By it's very definition "swap" means to trade and trading 5 KP for 5 KP could not be considered unfair by anyone.
• Is creating 12 extra accounts that only exist for the sole purpose of donating KP to your main account? I think so, but maybe you don't. I'd like to know what inno thinks.

EDIT: One simple line inno could draw is that if neither of you have discovered each other on the world map, and aren't in the same FS, then KP donation is cheating. Do you really need to donate KP to someone you don't interact with in any other way?

I think some people need to worry less about what other people are doing and care more about what they are doing themselves.

To me it seems like such an obvious way to cheat the system that it can't possibly be allowed, but if the developers don't see it that way, fine I'll do it too-- I just don't want to find out later that I was right, and it is cheating after I'm banned.

"How does it hurt anyone else", someone asked and quite simply the answer is...IT DOESN'T.

I would think that as someone who obviously cares about rank you of all people would be effected by it in such an obvious way that you must see it.
As for proof, ask @CrazyWizard what things are like on the dutch server since inno decided not to enforce the "no pushing" rule at all. Everyone in the top 100 and beyond has loads of KP push accounts (as many as 50!) and if you want even a reasonable ranking you have to do the same.
Try and take it to the next step. What happens if this becomes the norm on all servers? Do you really think that the developers won't put some barrier in place, or up the costs of everything in some way in order to maintain the level of challenge that they deem appropriate?

Take a moment and really think about it. If it becomes super easy to get level 20 wonders that crank out troops, supplies, coins, mana, population etc. there would be 2 possible outcomes:
1. Inno ignores it, and doesn't factor in many players having level 20 wonders.
-This then trivializes the difficulty, making the game stupid easy by removing what little challenge the tech tree has.
2. Inno increases costs in chapters 12+ (or even across the board)to maintain desired level of challenge.
-This effectively forces players to either move at a snails pace or make multiple push accounts.

How about a simple baseball analogy?
Let's say they decide to allow steroids. Either you have every swing turn into a home run, or you expand the field, moving the bases further apart. If the bases are so far apart that even roid monkeys have a challenge getting around, what do you think happens to non-using players?

Personally I'd rather they just make the rules a little clearer.

 

[DeletedUser4220]

One quick way to stop most of the pushing is to allow KP donation only from FS members (only one account per IP address in the same FS allowed) and from neighbors who are up to 15 rings away.

 

[Deleted User - 1178646]

I think the developers really don't care.

On beta today they unlocked all wonders to level 25.

Lets be fair, if everyone played by the book there would be absolutly no reason to unlock lvl 25 wonders since for the comming few years there are plenty of wonders to level.

Lets make a straigt calculation.

KP per week: 7*24 = 168KP
KP tournament per week at 15 provincies round 6 and 10th fellowhship chests = 210KP
3 provinces per week = 24 KP
coins to KP 5 per day = 7*5= 35 KP
-------------------------------------------------------
Weekly average = 433 per week!

average lvl 20 wonder 9300-9500 KP

9500/433 = 22

1 wonder leveling to lvl 20 takes on average with much activity activity takes aprox 22 weeks!!!!

Lets say you have a much more effective scedule /KP swaps /diamonds ect. and your able to shave off a few more weeks and drop it to 15 weeks.

with 20 wonders we have right now almost 6 years worth of wonder leveling.
so anyone beating this barrier is by definition a pusher.

As for the definition of a push account, this is what we were told several times, I will translate the most elaborate answer.

In our research we take in account several critera. we on puspose choose not to reveal these guidelines because if we set hard criteria you will see that die hard pushers will stay exactly within the lines while less carefull pushers will be punished.
This is something we do not want. to examine a push account we try to take a picture of the account as a whole. think about the tech tree progression, tournament activity world map exploration, enighbourly help, quests, interaction with other players, and trading and if so with who? is there activity in the events and are KP donated into old wonders and at whose account and how many flow back at the player and what scale? and off course not everyone joins the tournaments and that that doenst mean a player is automaticly a push account. after a well done and carefull research at the relation between the accounts played by the same people or account with whome interaction is found we might come to a conclusion that this is a push account. but if we have the slightest doubt we give the benefit of the doubt to the player. this doesnt mean the player is removed from our radar, banning a game account is the most extreme mesurement we can take and we dont take that lightly

off course this is a lot of crap, since I already told you the situation which surely would define a player with 50 accounts wha are all build at 3 tier 1 factories, (pushing the required goods down from the main account(s)?) houses and a maximum amount of workshops for hammers all pushing KP like crazy with no tech tree progression would surely fit this defenition as a push account.

all the other stuff he is taking about (scouting provinces, tournament participation are thing a push account loves to do)

Last october the explanation we got was:

As long as the function of an account is not solely pushing, but also plays the game itself like has tech tree progression, ect, ect ,ect. is allowed to invest knowledgepoints into account he or she owns themselves

Now lets go to a more plausible reason.
I have heared trough the grapevine that the moderating team is actually unable to follow the flow of players knowledgepoints to wonders.
This makes it impossible for them to make a decision as hard evidence is not aviable to them. especially if players remove the wonders from the street so that outside vieuw is not possible.

Tho again this is a method 1 of the original players we reported now does, the other player simply has so many accounts he/she can fill and level a wonder in minutes giving the same result.
But at the time we attested there methods last october they did not and it was all in the open. even at that time with the evidence in plain sight no action was further warranted after looking into this case. I am still flabbergasted at that answer tho it might be possible that the modertating team is only allowed to take actions on the data from the tools they have access to and not from visual evidence.

in that case then again this rumour is totally plausible.

 

[SoggyShorts]

One quick way to stop most of the pushing is to allow KP donation only from FS members (only one account per IP address in the same FS allowed) and from neighbors who are up to 15 rings away.

I like it. Maybe change 15 rings to discovered? I mean does anyone really need to donate KP to a player that they can't otherwise interact with?
Quick question about IPs: My wife and I play together in the same FS. Different computers, same router, so only slightly different IPs-- would that be an issue?

 

[Deleted User - 1178646]

in plenty of games this ain't an issue with the restiction of no "game" interaction, for example you could be in the same fellowshio, but your not allowed to pick up eachothers trades or invenst kp in eachothers wonders.

Take hattrick as an example: your not allowed to have interaction with eachothers players on the transfermarket and thats it.

As for the FS + IP thing, it aint that hard to cirmunvent that, especially with the app on it's way.
You just play 1 account normally, your second (in the same FS) trough a VPN, the 3rd trough a proxy, 1 with your cellphone app, your wifes cellphone ect. 1 on your neighbours connection. 1 on your ISP's hotspot, 1 on your neightbours ISP hotspot, ask your neightbour for help use his wifi as well.

these days having access to multiple IP's is super duper easy.

 

[SoggyShorts]

these days having access to multiple IP's is super duper easy.

Ok that's true, but at least if you have to be in the same FS to donate then you lose a trading partner, and your FS ranking suffers since your push account sucks at progressing.

 

[Deleted User - 1178646]

you care about FS ranking? luckily I dont I rather have a good group of chaps around me and be ranked at the bottom than at the top with a bunch of jackasses.

You still have your neighbourhood, and off course the neighbourhood of 24 more push accounts to get what you need.
the main point was that if someone wants to push they will just work around the barriers IP barriers and it's very easy to do so. you could just make your own FS and ditch 6 secret push accounts in there and then find another group of cool chaps to hang out with and trade with. and no one would be the wiser.

 

[AtaguS]

I'm a little concerned that if players are creating multiple accounts just to funnel KPs into their 1, main account...doesn't this make more clutter for neighborhoods across the server? So some active players will find themselves surrounded by one-hut towns with no hope of having a decent number of active, friendly neighbors to help out? Or perhaps I am misunderstanding the nature of what "pushers" are doing with multiple accounts?

 

[SoggyShorts]

We all had to donate KP's to the person who was "up" until that person's wonder was levelled up. A ridiculous method because we could donate however many kp's we wanted to...1 or 100...there was no set amount. That, by your definition, could be construed as "pushing".

Firstly, I have actually never given my definition of pushing. I only gave one example, and that is of a player with a dozen KP farms.
Secondly, yes that is a garbage system. My FS have a wonder pool, and we also focus on 2 wonders at a time until they are levelled. The difference is that we record every single KP donated, and use each players "KP balance" to determine which wonder comes up next. and again, that would not be considered "pushing" by my definition, since I have not stated what my definition is.

You talk about my rank and that I am "chasing it".

No, what I said was that you care about ranking, and that is based on our discussion in another thread about event buildings giving no ranking, but magical buildings do.

Just because someone has all level 20 AW's does not mean they're capable of beating me.

All other things being equal, yes it does. If you have both been spending the same time, and the same money, but they have level 20 wonders and you have level 5 wonders, they can "beat you"

The bottom line is this: Why not just let other people play whatever way they want without interference from someone else.

I think I was pretty clear on the possible consequences for everyone of allowing this sort of behaviour to continue

 

[DeletedUser3640]

If that is indeed a rule it makes no sense.

Indeed. I agree with you, friend.

Technically, donating to anyone's ancient wonder would be breaking the rule (even when a fellowship has a 10kp or 5kp thread). That is going against the "rule" IF that is a rule. By your definition ANYONE DONATING FP's TO ANYONE ELSE'S AW would be breaking the rules.

But that's not "technical" interpretation of given rule....ehh, doesn't matter. That rule doesn't make sense anyway, right?

So if a player is complaining because another player has other players that donate to them and that gives them an unfair advantage, then why does elvenar offer diamonds, magic buildings, blueprints, etc. The whole basis of the game is that it awards an advantage to players who elect to have an advantage.

Right, good point. That rule was just a trick! Oh man, I'm so envious of those geniuses who cracked the code and now are laughing at the two biggest challenges of the game - AW leveling and tournament participation. Multiple accounts creation is a natural solution to both these activities, thank god great minds figured that out. And oh silly me, thinking that having just 3 types of goods was an intentional game mechanic, of course it was not, devs obviously wanted me to grab the opportunity and create as many accounts as necessary to get free access to all 9. Existence of 0 star and cross-tier trades is an ultimate proof of that!

You opened my eyes, it makes perfect sense, and without a doubt - technically!

"How does it hurt anyone else", someone asked and quite simply the answer is...IT DOESN'T. Not in any way, shape or form.

You're right, again. Of course it doesn't!! Players who are violating game rules actually try to help others! Why didn't I think of it - they are trying to show that we're missing key strategy that obviously devs had in mind!

If these people spent more time playing and less time being concerned with what everyone else was up to, and constantly complaining how diamond purchasers have an unfair advantage, they'd maybe get ahead too.

Such a great tip! It's yet another hidden game mechanic I didn't see. Just tested - you're 100% correct - I spent more time playing and tried to be less concerned and my KP gain accelerated! Now I gain even more KPs than smartest players out there, with all their secondary accounts.

I didn't know we had a self-elected Elvenar police department.

Hah, right!? Silly people and their sense of justice!

 

[SoggyShorts]

I'm a little concerned that if players are creating multiple accounts just to funnel KPs into their 1, main account...doesn't this make more clutter for neighborhoods across the server? So some active players will find themselves surrounded by one-hut towns with no hope of having a decent number of active, friendly neighbors to help out? Or perhaps I am misunderstanding the nature of what "pushers" are doing with multiple accounts?

Yep, yet another reason why KP farms shouldn't be allowed.

 

[Salator]

OMG! I seriously have a headache after reading this whole thread!!! I have one city on one world that I have grown and that supplies me with enough hours of entertainment and sometimes more hours than I care to invest....I cannot even imagine an individual with multiple cities and on multiple worlds (to boot) ...what their day must be like....my god, is that all they do is sit in front of their computer / other device and play Elvenar? Don't they have jobs, family, friends, pets, activities, etc. that need attending to? My god, get a life people!!!! Pusher people, that is!!! Just sick.

 

[AtaguS]

Actually, you'll probably have a better trading partner with one of these towns in your trading circle than you would with someone who starts a town then abandons it like most of the towns I see. They need huge amounts of goods, supplies and coins to cater the tournaments and you'll never see one of their main halls in perpetual upgrade. Be thankful if you have one for your neighbour.

Ok, I see this, thanks! I'm certainly thankful for any neighbor without a perpetual main house upgrade, that is true. I guess I didn't realize these extra cities were played as well...I figured they just sat there with one house and a builder's hut so they could collect kps all day.

 

[DeletedUser3640]

As for the definition of a push account, this is what we were told several times, I will translate the most elaborate answer.

So basically, it's not pushing if:

1) not all KPs are donated to the main account (easy, 20 KPs per day per account will suffice);
2) exchange of goods is happening (super easy - one can't exchange nothing for something anyway... so game checks this for you);
3) neighbors are being visited and provinces being scouted (easy, visit few neighbors, scout 1-2 provinces per week);
4) there's a participation in the tournament (might be tedious, but oh well, 20 KPs are worth it);
5) not just one account is being pushed (easy, I'll just pick my main accounts FS member and donate few KPs to him/her as well).

OMG! I seriously have a headache after reading this whole thread!!! I have one city on one world that I have grown and that supplies me with enough hours of entertainment and sometimes more hours than I care to invest....I cannot even imagine an individual with multiple cities and on multiple worlds (to boot) ...what their day must be like....my god, is that all they do is sit in front of their computer / other device and play Elvenar? Don't they have jobs, family, friends, pets, activities, etc. that need attending to? My god, get a life people!!!! Pusher people, that is!!! Just sick.

I imagine it looks like that:

1) log in;
2) find main account and dump almost all KPs;
3) dump the rest to the tech tree;
4) collect 1 day long productions and start new ones;
5) post few trades;
6) visit some neigbors/FS members;
7) start an upgrade of a building.

All can be done in less than 2 mins, yet I doubt even that is happening..it's just probably steps Nr. 1 and 2 most of the time.

 

[Salator]

Close the forum page and take two aspirin.

LOL! Good advice!!!