Knowledge Point Clubs - an analysis

[DeletedUser627]

What is the progressive cost increase? Does it have a cap? Is there a number of total KP points you can reasonable expect to be able to obtain in exchange for goods and coins?

the price increases with each purchase: basic costs by a addend of 40, crafted by 20, magical by 10. I'm up to about 3000 goods per KP, and can still purchase 10 per 3 hours if I want to...more if I want to use coins. This was helpful for gaining my rune shards - I have all I'll need to build and upgrade, except for a few more Bulwark ones.

Eventually it will become more expensive...but eventually our manufactories will produce even more goods.

 

[Valtitude]

wow.

I have Ancient Wonders, I am not slow, and I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Perhaps it will become more clear as I work with the AW.

I know a couple of players who break this game down to it's framework, like Katwijk has in this thread. I read and reread these types of explanations and apply them to my game. I've learned an incredible amount by doing this, tho' my eyes are crossed and my brain is completely saturated the first couple of times I delve into the information! Ha! It's a left-right brain thing ...

I was surprised and a little concerned, when I learned about the KP clubs (gangs as some are calling them). It seems like an introduction of player vs player (pvp) which I thought Inno wasn't going to add to Elvenar, unless it was in a controlled way. Controlled way = players could elect to do pvp or not. Imho, if players want pvp, they can play FoE, TWs or WoW or something, while they wait for their Elvenar city to do it's thing.

 

[DeletedUser61]

Short and Simple? Don't contribute to an Ancient Wonder until the owner has covered a third of the points.

It seems like an introduction of player vs player (pvp) which I thought Inno wasn't going to add to Elvenar

In six months the place will be awash in Rune Shards, and all of the top echelon players will have Ancient Wonders that are just sitting there, stalled. That's actually the problem that we're solving.

1. You can level your own AW. If you devote maybe half of your KPs to that portion of your "tech tree" then you'll level (630/12=52.2 days) one of your Ancient Wonders each month if you work at it, because the lower levels require fewer KPs. A SINGLE level per month, on average.
2. If you're using a 40%+40%+20% swap agreement, then you'll level your AWs a bit faster because of the 20% outside help that DOES need the Rune Shards. The important point here is that each month you're earning an extra 630*80%*10%=50 KPs, which you can use to shave another 2 days off of your cycle time.
3. Don't even bother with a rotational club. Their worst feature is the capped contribution rate. Do you REALLY want to have KPs sitting in a half dozen DIFFERENT AWs? Even if folks are contributing 6*12=72 per week you're still talking about two months to get your AW leveled, if ever.
4. Using the spreadsheet model allow us to level an AW in 630 / 6/24 = a couple of days, ROUTINELY, and you'll earn 630/5*10%=12 extra KPs PER LEVEL, and when your turn comes your AW will also be leveled within a few days.

• The spreadsheet model has no upper nor lower limits on daily contributions, but if somebody is averaging fewer than 6 FPs per day we'll probably cast them loose.
• You can reinvest your 12 KPs, and compound your earnings. The tech tree maxed heavy hitters will be investing 200 KPs per week, split amongst 3 successive AWs.
• The mini-game of chicken in sort of amusing, but you KNOW that if a team member blew all of his KPs on this round, he's dead meat next week, and everybody earns the same 10% anyway.
• The major contributors are merely grateful that they don't have to pound the pavement looking for contributors, and they'll just stack their Rune Shards over in the corner somewhere.
• The minor contributors are delighted because they'll get a lot of turns on their smaller levels, and they were never going to win any of the award packages anyway. It's actually pretty impressive when a half dozen heavy hitters level your AW in two days.

So it's not really about PvP in any sense of the world. Rather the awards incentivize cooperative endeavors, for mutual advantage.

 

[DeletedUser627]

Katwijk, why do you think the top echelon players will be stalled?

 

[DeletedUser61]

Short and Simple? Don't contribute to an Ancient Wonder until the owner has covered a third of the points.

Katwijk, why do you think the top echelon players will be stalled?

The players are not stalled - rather they'll each have a half dozen AWs that aren't making much progress. We're already to the point where dozens of AWs are just sitting there with partially filled levels. It gets worse.

Participating in a club allows you to jump level a designated AW whenever it's your turn, and compound your 10% earning a couple of times per week.

 

[DeletedUser1161]

I was surprised and a little concerned, when I learned about the KP clubs (gangs as some are calling them). It seems like an introduction of player vs player (pvp) which I thought Inno wasn't going to add to Elvenar, unless it was in a controlled way. Controlled way = players could elect to do pvp or not. Imho, if players want pvp, they can play FoE, TWs or WoW or something, while they wait for their Elvenar city to do it's thing.

There is a lot of hyperbolic language about fighting over rune shards in this thread. I'm not at all concerned for a few reasons.

1. Paying players can buy shards for not too many diamonds.
2. New players will naturally get more shards from conquering provinces. Many of the vocal players here are top-ranked and had already done a lot of province exploration when the AW were added to the game. They lost out on opportunities to get shards from provinces, increasing the pressure to win them from wonders.
3. As a lot of players get wonders built, the focus will shift from getting shards to figuring out how the heck to get someone to donate KP to your wonder and not one of the 1000 other wonders on the server.

 

[DeletedUser]

There is a lot of hyperbolic language about fighting over rune shards in this thread. I'm not at all concerned for a few reasons.

1. Paying players can buy shards for not too many diamonds.
2. New players will naturally get more shards from conquering provinces. Many of the vocal players here are top-ranked and had already done a lot of province exploration when the AW were added to the game. They lost out on opportunities to get shards from provinces, increasing the pressure to win them from wonders.
3. As a lot of players get wonders built, the focus will shift from getting shards to figuring out how the heck to get someone to donate KP to your wonder and not one of the 1000 other wonders on the server.

It will improve with time, but I wish I could get over being screwed from dedicating an enormous amount of time to advance, by clearing provinces, in the earlier stages of the game.

 

[Valtitude]

• If you're using a 40%+40%+20% swap agreement, then you'll level your AWs a bit faster because of the 20% outside help that DOES need the Rune Shards. The important point here is that each month you're earning an extra 630*80%*10%=50 KPs, which you can use to shave another 2 days off of your cycle time.

• Don't even bother with a rotational club. Their worst feature is the capped contribution rate. Do you REALLY want to have KPs sitting in a half dozen DIFFERENT AWs? Even if folks are contributing 6*12=72 per week you're still talking about two months to get your AW leveled, if ever

I see your point about KP clubs, Katwijk, and thank you for this information in general. I know several players who are trying the rotational club route. Not sure if it's working for them or not. I have useful information to take back to them now, though.

The fear of players absconding with KPs is out there and most players won't read this article. I'll let those I know this info exists, but it's kinda the Churchill speech all over again (referring to yesterday), you know? In my part of the world it can be phrased like this, 'you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make 'em drink'.

I don't have AWs yet, but am very close. One branch of the tech tree left before Dwarven AWs in one city. One rune shard from the martial monastary on another, still a ways to go in Chap V. I guess I can take two paths with my cities - build AWs before Dwarves and the other, enter Dwarves before building AWs. I'm trying to look through the very opaque door of what's coming up next and understand at least part of what this is all about.

Aydenn - I see your points as well. I agree that as the newness of AWs wears off, it will cause a shift in perspective. Players will beg for KP clubs.

lol - a sense of humor is mandatory in Elvenar. Alligator and/ or Dragon skin too, sometimes!

 

[DeletedUser61]

Short and Simple? Don't contribute to an Ancient Wonder until the owner has covered a third of the points.

'you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make 'em drink'

I actually prefer
"You can lead a horticulture, but you can't make her think."

 

[Valtitude]

I actually prefer
"You can lead a horticulture, but you can't make her think."

Hmmm. I liked that Churchill reference yesterday, you know. Also, I used the horse analogy because I was thinking in terms of herd mentality - one follows the other. Stubbornness is what it is. As for horticulture, I'm a pretty terrific gardener. I'm going to take this as you being humorous, eh Katwijk? I hope. My alligator dragon skin has grown quite thick of late, though anyway. I've learned a lot about this game from you and quite a few other players.

 

[DeletedUser1161]

It will improve with time, but I wish I could get over being screwed from dedicating an enormous amount of time to advance, by clearing provinces, in the earlier stages of the game.

Yeah, that seems very unfair.

 

[DeletedUser61]

Short and Simple? Don't contribute to an Ancient Wonder until the owner has covered a third of the points.

PileOn Consulting is ready for show time. We're in no particular hurry, but you might want to test the waters, so that you'll at least start off in the right direction.

Check out https://us.forum.elvenar.com/index.php?threads/arendyll-pileon-consulting.1441/

 

[DeletedUser1122]

When should you start a KP club? Should I let fellowship members in just because they have researched AW? Won't premature joining a club dampen their progression on the research tree? We are not a fellowship of gamers/spread sheet users but a exceeding good group of players/people that enjoy the building/fellowship aspects of the game.
No horse traces here. I would like an answer that my grandmother would understand.

 

[DeletedUser61]

Short and Simple? Don't contribute to an Ancient Wonder until the owner has covered a third of the points.

The short answer is that you're better off contributing to your tech tree or your own Ancient Wonders
unless you are willing to commit to one of the contribution breakpoints at 6%,13%,30%, or 45% in somebody else's AW.

Keep an eye on the Arendyll: PileOn Club thread in Fellowships Seeking Members. KP Club PileOn will be a large public opt-out club for folks who don't have access to a well managed Knowledge Point club.

 

[DeletedUser1122]

Sorry, I made the question difficult to understand. I will try again.
When should you consider (at what level of progression on research tree) participating in a well managed KP club.

 

[DeletedUser61]

Short and Simple? Don't contribute to an Ancient Wonder until the owner has covered a third of the points.

The sweet spot, for a private KP Club is

• 7 members who average 10 KPs per day
• 7 members who average 20 KPs per day
• So long as the participants all have at least one Ancient Wonder then everything will be comfortable.

You can get by with fewer people, but it can be pretty awkward, and you'll get very tired of hearing about "the way we've always done it." You don't need the aggravation.

Our PileOn Consulting model is for folks to stay with the general KP Club PileOn until your group reaches the sweet spot, and until folks understand how the system works, and then we'll help you create a self-managed franchise for your own Fellowship.

 

[DeletedUser1122]

Thank-you for trying Kat. You actually answer part of the question earlier, my bad.

In Elvenar, KP clubs won't be feasible until we have at least a history tab for each AW, and KP packets so that you can tactically drop 60 or so KPs all at once, when you have an opportunity to capture an award slot. It's the ultimate game of chicken, because the longer you wait the fewer points you'll need to invest, unless somebody else jumps in first.

My best guess on when to get into the piles or swaps is after you have started the copper mine research and have sufficient goods to purchase KP in a regular cycle so you can "commit to one of the contribution breakpoints at 6%,13%,30%, or 45% in somebody else's AW." The trading of goods plus your daily allotment of KP should be enough to permit continual research at a reduced speed but start getting the shards and bonuses. It will also allow you to start stock piling granite and copper.

"you'll get very tired of hearing about "the way we've always done it."" Not my fellowship. Might get tired of "we never done it before" or "huh" or "what". Oh wait the last 2 expressions are mine.

 

[DeletedUser61]

Short and Simple? Don't contribute to an Ancient Wonder until the owner has covered a third of the points.

Once we have a half dozen different AWs available, including those at the end of the tech tree for our 2nd guest race, the end of Chapter IV will mark the beginning of the middle game, wherein Ancient Wonders will be absorbing 2/3rds of your Knowledge Points.

We'll be winning 10% on our investments, we'll have the Provincial Tournaments that have been announced but not explained, there'll be som special event buildings that will generate KPs, and a couple of the Ancient Wonders will, themselves, generate Knowledge Points.

In FoE, which is relevant because Great Buildings are clearly the model for our Ancient Wonders, I'm contributing 70 Forge Points per day.

In Elvenar we've only seen the very basic first round of what's likely to pop during the next 6 months. There's no need to rush into it.

 

[DeletedUser627]

.....

I actually prefer
"You can lead a horticulture, but you can't make her think."

Wow. If I'd made this comment I'd once again be receiving censure from a moderator.

WHERE ARE THE MODS? This is deeply offensive.

 

[DeletedUser627]

Short and Simple? Don't contribute to an Ancient Wonder until the owner has covered a third of the points.

The players are not stalled - rather they'll each have a half dozen AWs that aren't making much progress. We're already to the point where dozens of AWs are just sitting there with partially filled levels. It gets worse.

Participating in a club allows you to jump level a designated AW whenever it's your turn, and compound your 10% earning a couple of times per week.

This analysis remains incorrect. First, do you know some knowledge as to the release of additional Wonders? If not, how can a player have "half a dozen"? Second, Wonders will always be "sitting there with partially filled levels", because that's what they're intended to do: be receptacles for available KP.

I'm not dissing your idea that a KP club can be of value to players who remain in the tech tree and thus have need of every single KP they can get...but your reference to "top" players isn't correct. We've given away so much KP these past weeks that we're often trying to avoid winning shards...and winning 3-5-10 KP from another's Wonder is sort of a joke. We just give it away to other players who actually need it. The Wonders we chose to build are progressing nicely, thank you.