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    Your Elvenar Team

Questions About Net Zero KP Swap Method

BrinDarby

Well-Known Member
yea @SoggyShorts , you're a once-a-day player, for sure......

I get 33kp/day + any from tourn, if I leave it max'd I only
get 9kp/day + tourn... and remember it needs to NOT be
max'd so I can see the counter, yes it matters.....
Thats 168 kp/week I can donate/convert... might as well
not let it go to waste.... so I give it away....
( no Soggy, I have no AWs of my own )
 

Kekune

Well-Known Member
@The Fairy to add to my earlier post... converting from swap threads is a bit more challenging than converting from shout-outs, mostly because the rewards work essentially in reverse, and it can take time for folks to process it and understand. In the threads, you trade donations and the chest kp is the reward/profit; in net zero, you trade for chest contents and the reward is the free kp people give you in doing that. It takes some folks time to understand that reversal, and that it's ok to not get the top chest, or even any chest. They think they're somehow losing out if they put their own kp into their own AW instead of fishing for rewards in someone else's. They can't stop seeing the chests as a prize to be won.

And @BrinDarby I'd think net zero would actually suit your needs pretty well. In net zero, every kp you put into someone else's AW will convert to an equal amount in kp instants, so in theory depending on how much you're online and how often folks in your fellowship post an AW to upgrade, you'd be able to bank 100% of your kp. At some point (like with a lot of tourney kp), you'd need your own AW to drop into as well. I think you're the rare player who's chosen to "pause" without any AWs, though, so this wouldn't typically be a barrier to implementing a net zero swap.
 

BrinDarby

Well-Known Member
@Kekune ,
actually it works against me, as I don't wanna appear greedy and
earn top Shards on every AW the FS has.... I normally contribute
2-3x the top chest on like 1/2 the ones I see ..... I always have a
go-to person whom I can drop KP to quickly, if need be. I do
snipe/dive bomb non FS members's AWs for profit... But only the
juicy ones, where usually only the owner seems to be donating
and I can turn a 2x+ profit. ( usually big old players, not in a FS )
 

ajqtrz

Chef - Loquacious One
@CrazyWizard

How are these numbers arrived at? " My piramid 15-10-10-5-5 (nz)?" I assume they are the returns for the chests taken and you are expected to put in those amounts? If so, why not "My pyramid 5, 4, 3, 2, 1", which would create 10, 6, 7, 3, 4, -- 30 KP profit for the players? The "missing" 15 KP would then be on the owner to make up, of course, and that means over all the thing would break even. But....it would also mean players would be more enthusiastic about participating since they would profit more as individuals. And more enthusiasm means more chests are captured.

This system isn't very fair. Players get back more than they put in, which means the most active players get the most back. You could easily have a system where one or two players manage to monopolize the chest rewards and thus they get an unequal amount of rewards compared to the rest of the FS.

With NetZero everyone gets back exactly what they put in. There is no imbalance caused by players being more or less inactive with regards to KP. With NetZero I could take the top spot for every AW and I wouldn't gain any advantage over the other players in my FS.

"This system isn't very fair." Yeah, there's that word again. The opportunity is what is there and if you aren't there for the opportunity -- which is offered to everyone at the same time -- how is it unfair for the person who is there to not take advantage of it? Why are you worried that somebody will profit by monopolizing the system? Is profit the problem or distribution of profit so everybody makes the same even if they aren't as active as others? If a person isn't on line to take one of the chests in a net zero offer, how can that be fair by the same standard? There are only a limited number chests so how can it be fair that only those arriving first get them? I can easily imagine a few players who are on line a lot taking the chests and leaving others out because they aren't there. In other words, I really can't see the difference.

"Everyone gets back exactly what the put in?" How is that profitable then? I don't know about you, but I'd rather take a lot of profit than break even. Why settle for break even when you you could have a lot more. Say I participate in 3 FSO's and put in 21 KP for 150 KP back (50 x 3). I think that's a bit more than break even. And if I get 50 per FSO back by being the first to show up, and you get 50 back for being the first to show up for a net zero, the only difference is you have to put in 50 rather than 7. And if the same 5-7 players show up and dominate the net zero doesn't it mean the other, less active players, miss out since the chests are all taken? If I used your standard of fairness, it wouldn't seem fair to me.

On the other hand, if you measure return to the fs, then since the owner in the FSO has to make up the difference between what the player would have put in using net zero and what they put in vis FSO. Which means the same amounts still have to be put in but that in the net zero the players have to contribute more to break even while in the FSO they contribute less and the owner more to finish the AW.

And in the FSO there's little to no chance of anybody swooping in and grabbing a chest cheaply since the time space is so small -- as small as the enthusiasm and activities of the players make it. Net zero is only, in my opinion, slightly less likely since the value of the chest is what's put in.

AJ
 

Kekune

Well-Known Member
Why settle for break even when you you could have a lot more.
Because getting the chests isn't the point. The point is that your fellows will give you, free and clear, 20% of the cost to level your AW because they DO break even on the chests. They "loan" you the kp you need to level, repaid by the chests when you level up. So in your system the owner receives, what, 28 kp? (7 + 6 + 5 +...) And they have to fill in the remaining 972 by themselves. In net zero, people donate a total of 200, promptly get their investment back, and the owner pays only 800 for their 1000kp level. (I'm using nice round numbers here, just for simplicity.)

Wasn't always this way, but I struggle to find a reason to log in lately.
Well, shoot. We've heard this before... another year-long hiatus coming up? :(
 

Deleted User - 1178646

Guest
@CrazyWizard

How are these numbers arrived at? " My piramid 15-10-10-5-5 (nz)?" I assume they are the returns for the chests taken and you are expected to put in those amounts? If so, why not "My pyramid 5, 4, 3, 2, 1", which would create 10, 6, 7, 3, 4, -- 30 KP profit for the players? The "missing" 15 KP would then be on the owner to make up, of course, and that means over all the thing would break even. But....it would also mean players would be more enthusiastic about participating since they would profit more as individuals. And more enthusiasm means more chests are captured.

Why is it so hard for some people to help others for no benefit nor harm?
They are your fellowship members? why do you need to profit from your own brothers and sisters at there expense?

I scratch your back, you scratch mine, it should not be that hard to enthousiastically help eachother.
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
Well, shoot. We've heard this before... another year-long hiatus coming up? :(
Maybe... I just find myself switching tabs before the bar goes up to 29 and not going back.
I mostly came back because of Covid lockdowns and because the wife still plays.

I've been sticking around for months with a plan to get a level 10 polar for zero cooldowns so that I can instantly complete the tournament, but after getting that on Beta (terrible spire RNG on Live) I find that I'm still not looking forward to it. Plowing through the Spire & tourney in 20-40 minutes feels like something I have to do rather than want to do.

My cities are basically getting "better" through KP gains into good wonders which allows me to grow my army each week but what's the point if I'm not interested in spending the time to use those troops?

Basically, I'm realizing that I want the game to go faster not so that I can do more, but rather so that I can play less often, and that's not good. To be fair, part of it is that Factorio has got me hooked like crack,meth&heroin combined.
 

SoggyShorts

Mathematician par Excellence
so what , yet again, only high CH players matter ????
I care about shards, so do many other ppl. :rolleyes:
No, what I'm saying is that as a FS of 25 players it is extremely unlikely that players need to fight over shards, so it's a total non-factor in the swap.
Also, in what way is this issue (not that there is one) resolved by any other KP system?
 

Deleted User - 1178646

Guest
so what , yet again, only high CH players matter ????
I care about shards, so do many other ppl. :rolleyes:
mr I want to stay in chapter 4 or so forever needs shards?
You care about shards? for what?

Anyway, I do not need a single shard, but if another member does, I'll be glad to have that player get all the big chests and therefore the most shards from those wonders he/she needs.

I have absolutely no clue what to do with them anymore lol
1629415867434.png
 

ajqtrz

Chef - Loquacious One
Every KP you get as profit is one KP someone in your FS lost. Some people prefer a fair system over a competetive system in their FS.

So competition is the problem? Isn't it competition to get to the chest first? If I'm on line all the time and somebody posts a net zero, I go and claim chest one with 40KP. The next guy can't get that chest because I beat him to it. Isn't that competitive? Your premise that somehow just because you pay more for the chests and get back exactly what you put in in a net zero based AW KP swap, it isn't competitive, is a bit flawed. What's the difference between that and the desire to put in just 7KP for the top chest? Both are the same. On the other hand, the possibility of grabbing a profitable chest might be an encouragement for players to be more active...because if you aren't here, the opportunity may go to another player.

It appears to me that the real difference between the two methods is that the owner of the AW in the net zero benefits more from the players contributions, than in the FSO method. Which, to me, means some danger. I can imagine a player putting in an AW and just letting people contribute -- without doing much for others. And if you insist he/she do so, who'd tracking and how? You can have the players do so on their own, as it appears they are doing, but what's to keep a person from simply laying back and finishing their AW without doing the same for others at the same level? Even if the contribute to another player, it doesn't appear their is any method to prevent them from doing so at a lower level other than the AW owner noticing and ...complaining? Of course, then the AM can just get involved and kick the "ungenerous" player, I guess. And if you try tracking who put what where and when, that's a lot of overhead.

On the face of it the net zero appears to work on the "honor" system. And, frankly, given the player base, I suspect that "good enough" in almost all cases. People in fs's are usually very good about that. On the other hand, one has to say the same thing in the profit motivated FSO system, though, of course, "profit" may be a stimulus to temptation.

So here's how I compare the systems.

"Fairness" as defined in opportunity offered: even.
"Fairness" as defined in everybody gets exactly the same KP advantage over time: Net zero
Enthusiasm generated and thus more active: FSO by a small bit.
Profit for the AW owner: Net zero
Profit for the players: FSO by a lot.
Danger of nefarious activities where somebody grabs all the advantages and others are "left out" About the same
Danger of outside fs players grabbing chests: FSO due to it's very short turn around

From this I'd say using one or the other is a matter of if you think it's important that everybody get exactly the same benefit from everything and can regulate/let players regulate who grabs the chests first and second, and so on. That's the net zero. If, on the other hand, you want the players to profit and "work the system" to their advantage the FSO is much better. I think, in fact, most fs's would benefit from the response to FSO since it's a quick and fast way for a player to grab a lot of KP instants with very little investment, even if it means some competition.

AJ
 

Darielle

Chef, Scroll-Keeper, and Buddy Fan Club Member
I've read the explanations for net zero, and frankly, I like the AW threads better. It would be a nightmare to me if I had to wait hours for someone to fill my chests so I could upgrade. When you have zero incentive except runes, and the high cost of a 10 or 20 chest left, you may wait hours for someone to want to donate. It's a psychological thing; yes they'll get their kp back but if they don't need runes, what's the incentive? But you never have a problem finding people in chat who will rush to put one pt on a chest and getting 5 back. When an owner is ready to upgrade, those last chests fill up quickly, but the ones who donated from the AW threads still get the higher chests because they put more on it. The owner can upgrade when they want to, not when someone's on who will do that charity despite not gaining benefit.

I often put 50 kp on another person's wonder and then find that I only earned the 10kp chest. So what? I got my 50 kp back in the AW threads, plus the additional10kp. Where's the loss?
 

Guurt The Destroyer

Well-Known Member
how is it fair when 1 person can go in and get EVERY top shard chest
on every FS AW ???? before anyone else adds anything ??

I am only in Dwarves. I need Runes. It was MUCH harder to get runes with the other system because in order to fill an AW people had to put in a lot of KP and it was near impossible for me to secure a top spot.

With NetZero I can easily get spots when I need them.

I only have so much AW KP so I only try to secure the top spots for the AW I care about.

As a lower chapter player it is much easier to get runes now that there isn't a bidding war for the top spots. Before all players that probably didn't need runes were getting the majority of the runes.
 
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