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    Your Elvenar Team

Feedback Quick and Dirty Summary of Ancient Wonder Changes

Astram

Forum Moderator
Elvenar Team
Well you are mixing two different issues, 1 is a game-wide issue and the other is a specific game condition.

But first you should understand what "structural scarcity" really is. The simple definition is that when "supply and demand are misaligned for some buyers but not for all." "Unequal access to resources in a given society making them scarce for large segments of the population." The fact is that making SF a currency introduces structural scarcity and in turn, creates a situation where some members have enough of the resource to not be negatively affected, and a large portion of the members are feeling the shortage. The imbalance is exactly what you see in famine-ridden countries like in Africa, and often leads to civil unrest. The lords in the mansions and the peasants looking in the windows.

So in my response, I am clearly stating that the amount won was more than enough for the next need, FOR ME. As a result, the gain in SF was perfect even in an imperfect setting from the game standpoint.

I hope this helps to understand exactly what is going on.
 

BrinDarby

Well-Known Member
but the one area I am firm on is the Cost structure. This portion was bad as it introduced a "Structural Scarcity" into the game that only creates more of a "Have versus Have not" or simply put "the rich against the poor"
The addition of SF as a Currency creates the "structural scarcity" that is extremely detrimental to the game on par with an ELE asteroid, such as that even a glancing blow is the end, so, best to make it miss totally.
The imbalance is exactly what you see in famine-ridden countries like in Africa, and often leads to civil unrest.

The reason for my post is to expand, not refute Astram's quotes.

Have the chgs lead to "civil unrest" , Yes.
Were the cost chgs "bad" , Yes.
Did the changes create imbalance, even though the
stated goal was to "rebalance" , Yes

Expanding this further, to me, begs a few questions .....
1) Why are things never designed for certain things, then
used for those very things ?
2) At what point does breaking the players's trust , in
ingame purchases, ultimately hurt Elvenar ?
3) In a game where the progression of a city is basically
Jenga, meaning everything players do, is based on what
they've already done..... Why then are "foundational"
decisions, being rendered pointless/endlessly maluable ?
4) Was the reason really rebalancing, or was it revenue
generation, including draining players's accts of what Inno
incorrectly assumes is a glut of buildup in players's cities ?
5) Why if Aws are being upgraded too quickly, is the whole
game slanted so much in favor of constantly dumping
KP/AWKP into AWs.
6) Why doesn't Inno understand, that to the playerbase ....
if the only way to add new content, is chg the whole game,
that will cause many ppl that like the current game to leave,
or very vocally complain, magnify'n this issue so even more
ppl realize what possibly is "actually" going on or foster a
belief in conspiracy theories.



I've been here quite a few years (ugg), and in that time I've
seen numerous times where Inno says XYZ, then does ABC.
Infact it seems the norm around here, not the exception. I'm
not a PHD in game design/coding, but there are those out
there. Not only can they look @ a game and make some fairly
accurate reasons why a part of the game does this/that, but
they also will tell you, just as in a lot of situations, there's always
more than 1 way to do anything.

I do have the equiv of a AA in Programming from the 80's.
I also have created games, and am a big fan of game design
in/of itself. Some things can be retrofit, some need redesign.
When anything is chg'd enough, it becomes its own product.
When a game is so intertwined where a chg somewhere means
a change everywhere, especially games that are a defacto
pyramid... where everything is built up, on top of whats
already there, its very hard to chg some things without making
a whole new game.

Lets say you actually had a pet and your choice is either a dog
Or a cat. A dog doesn't need a litterbox for example, nor do
most ppl buy a scratching post for a dog. While you might get
your pet for free, as time goes on most pet lovers invest in
"stuff" for thier pet.... Its human nature, if 4 yrs later, you are
not allowed to have a dog, and all that stuff you spent good
$$ on becomes worthless, for a human to be very upset. If
you live in a complex that chgs rules and cats are no longer
accepted.... those ppl don't switch to dogs, they are replaced
with dog owners.

Inno needs its playerbase, and its playerbase needs Inno.
Current mgmt seems to think they don't need thier players
going by many of the (coughs) recent changes ( since Mar ).
It is creating either a mass exodus, or a mass aversion to
spending money into Elvenar. Certainly a mass revolt in
our displeasure with the trajectory around here.

An accepted rule of thumb is for every 1 person who
complains, there are 99+ who never say a word. They take
thier consumer $$s to another product/company. Another
rule of thumb is customer aquisistion costs far more than
customer retention. A 7-11 owner will say, the biggest
challange is getting ppl in the door, not selling them a
product once they are in the store. You need both good
customer svc, and a inventory that ppl want.... in order to
fulfill your customers wants/needs..... and thats After you
get them in the door in the 1st place. Finally, the golden
goose in advertizing is word-of-mouth, and by piss'n off
your current playerbase, you lose that. Not only do you
lose that, it might morph into negative-WoM, which can
bring down even the biggest of companies silently.

I can think of @least 1 example of a 800lb gorrilla in the
room, that if ever changed incorrectly will emplode the
game. If never changed, a few systemic probs with Elvenar
will never get addressed and will facilitate other changes
just as bad and detrimental to Elvenar.

Yes ultimately its Inno's decision, that also means get it
wrong, and the demise of Elvenar is also Inno's fault. My
guess is, as usuall, Inno will blame the playerbase instead
of themselves, and punish players with more insane chgs.

It all just makes this player............ very Sad.
 

getmomo

Well-Known Member
If it was only more difficult to upgrade wonders that would be one thing, what kills me the most is that I can barely craft anything now. Pet food and military boosts are the only things I craft anymore and I still can barely update wonders. I went from getting the mystical object every few days to every few weeks. And upgrading buildings is a thing of the past too.
 

Cookie Monsterz

New Member
I came from a city rising building game that I spent years building. At its end it was the same things that are happening here. Changes the players don't like filled with last minute attempts to rake in money that only made the game look terrible. Like advertising in the game with movies and irritable eye garbage that says "theres a treasure in your city!" everytime I log in and it's just a junk video over and over is gross.

I came here and spent years building in Elvenar, but I also recognize the end when I see it. Sorry to see you go Elvenar, it was fun but now it's just distasteful.
 
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TimeMachine

Well-Known Member
If it was only more difficult to upgrade wonders that would be one thing, what kills me the most is that I can barely craft anything now. Pet food and military boosts are the only things I craft anymore and I still can barely update wonders.
I guess you should better craft all that stuff you think your city needs or could benefit from and wait a little longer for the next wonder upgrade.
I cannot imagine that @InnoGames wants humans and elves to not be able to use crafting any more

I am afraid that humans and elves will save up recources at the wrong spot and maybe will become totally incapacitated, what, to me, can be another reason for quitting the game.

Just want to remind everybody who got a lack of spell fragments to check inventory in order to disentchant some Portal Profits, old buildings or even KP as they deliver a nice amount of spell fragments too.

In my kind of playstyle I've rarely ever used much Portal Profits, because I wanted to know how long the chapters took without "cheating". :)

My two first cities have built up aditional spell fragment parks as well, just to store Portal Profits so that they are able to create spell fragments whenever they want. It's like generating Mana with Dragon Abbey and spell usage. ;)

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Pheryll

Set Designer
In my kind of playstyle I've rarely ever used much Portal Profits, because I wanted to know how long the chapters took without "cheating". :)

I am surprised that I went through chapter 21 without using a single portal profit. The seasons no longer have quests requiring their usage (I remember at the end of chapter 20 having to spend several portal profits just for season quests). So what at first was a catch up mechanism for technologies has now become a catch up mechanism for ancient wonder leveling.
 

quin629

Well-Known Member
The seasons no longer have quests requiring their usage (I remember at the end of chapter 20 having to spend several portal profits just for season quests).

Oh, yes, they do. I've declined that quest twice (as a weekly quest) in the current season since I'm between chapters & have a better use for those PPs now.
 

Pheryll

Set Designer
Not sure why I haven't seen them in chapter 21, given that I was there from the time it was released. Maybe the 21st chapter doesn't have that quest slated.
 

persona1

Member
i do not normally post here but i do read a lot of the forum, i played this game many years now and i normally buy diamonds that said the new changes re AW's is to much and i am very disappointed with Inno , i seen a lot of changes over the years some good some bad, for me this new change is like changing the rules of game moving the goal posts i set my cities up to produce resources for upgrades now all that has changed and for me its too much i now will not buy diamonds to support game and am considering leaving game over changes i normally log in 2 or 3 times a day to my cities now i log in here and there, from what i see Inno are trying to slow our progress down rather than developing game more
 

iamthouth

Tetris Master
Ch6 beta city now has all wonders KP filled, but insufficient spell fragments to upgrade any, and a veeery slow earn in the few levels of spire that I can do. I have minimal items to disenchant, unlike my Ch21 city. Blue means ready to upgrade, but insufficient resources to do so. I'll probably stop playing this world, and just log back in if and when Ch22 is released, if I last that long on my main.
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Dukester69

Member
Ch6 beta city now has all wonders KP filled, but insufficient spell fragments to upgrade any, and a veeery slow earn in the few levels of spire that I can do. I have minimal items to disenchant, unlike my Ch21 city. Blue means ready to upgrade, but insufficient resources to do so. I'll probably stop playing this world, and just log back in if and when Ch22 is released, if I last that long on my main.
View attachment 16899View attachment 16900View attachment 16901View attachment 16902
I'm only in Chapter 13 and my AWs are starting to back up just like the above pic, "as predicted." I see me shutting down my city before I move to chapter 14. What a shame, normally I would have spent some money on this event. But with the recent Inno changers, I refuse to spend anything. Hope Inno is working on a solution before I am forced to shut down my city permently. :(
 

Silver Lady

Well-Known Member
My big city is chap 14 and 2 of 9 AW are filled and the others are close. My smaller cities have 50% or more AWs filled. I’m luck to have been around long enough that I have a small stock pile of resources that we now need to upgrade AWs, but it will impact my crafting. To be able to both craft and upgrade I roughly figure I can upgrade 1AW level every 4 to 6 months if I want to be able to craft, but I’ll have to reassess all the evolving/set buildings I have been using RRs on and really weed out most of them. But the other thing that has me frustrated and annoyed is all those runes! Inno just gave us the ability to use them to give 15KP to a neighbor’s AW or 10KP to our own. Now this is pretty obviously NOT going to be of use. We can still only collect 10 rune shards that will now clog our rune bar and we won’t be able to clear them. So runes & rune shards hanging around doing nothing … if we could frag them maybe that would help.

Edit added PS

PS: Seeing more and more cities with No KP in their city names.
 

Dhurrin

Well-Known Member
So, it has been a while and I have been waiting until I had some time to evaluate this new system. And unsurprisingly, it turned out pretty much as I expected; it sucks. I will compare between some different servers, where I have different cities.

Main city: end-game player, that has been sitting at the end of chap 21 for a while now. A typical whale, top15 of the world player, lots of premium expansions, with pretty huge stocks of everything, whether goods, spells, summonings, sorcereries etc etc. Brought out 3 additional Moonstone lib sets, having 4 up now (and another 4 still in my inventory). Gold Spire every week, 16+ chests in the tourney every week and crafting 24/7.
Most of my AWs (and I have most of them up, 36 AWs total, 18 of them now at lvl 35) were about lvl 30, as there was no reason for me to upgrade them beyond that, as there was only 1 of the effects that would increase and picked up on upgrading them to 35 now.
My stock of CC-spells has dropped from about 1.300 to about 250, despite Tinlug providing 37-40 CCs every week, and cooking them in the MA and having the Dragon Ark providing 14 CCs for every chest I collect from the MA. My stock of spellfrags dropped from 1.1 MILLION to 120.000, despite disenchanting quite some spells and instants and event-buildings I didn't need for an additional 200.000 frags or so.
That means that at this point, spellfrags are going to be a bit of an issue if I want to bring the rest up to 35.
So for my main city, this is a hardship, but it still is do-able. Perhaps not as fast as I would like, but that is ok, it is a bit of a challenge, though there just are not enough sources for spellfrags to keep this up. But my stock of spells and PP-instants can still be used to create more spellfrags, it's just that I don't like to bring those stocks down, which is more psychologically than anything else as there is no reason to keep having such huge stocks with 1.500+ spells of each type and huge masses of instants I almost never use. Not to mention that I can always rebuild these later and will be getting more from events.
However, it also means that my whale-city is not really slowed down that much, which was the whole reason given for this change, so in that aspect this change is an abysmal failure.

Good sized city in chap 17. Quite a bit smaller than my main city, not as many AWs (18 up, ranging between lvl 13-29). This city has 2 Moonsone Lib sets up and does ok in the Spire, though we don't make gold every week, but do every other week, we do about 11-12 tourneychests every week.
This city has come to a halt in upgrading AWs. 3 are now ready to be upgraded, but I don't have enough frags to do so, with one more being at the lvl of needing to fill the ring and I'm waiting for more runes. My stock is now about 21.000 frags, but the AWs that are ready to be upped are all at a lvl that need more than that. And I still would like to craft, so my stock has to be carefully balanced. Though the city is good on goods and mana, the spellfrags and CC's are an issue.
So for this advanced city it will mean greatly slowing down upping AWs, which was the point.

Small city; chap 7. Not much money invested, but still got 4 premium expansions. 4 AWs up, lvl 4-12. Short on spellfrags. I might be able to up 1, maybe 2 lvls, but that will about it for a long time as I don't have any Moonstone sets here and am not able to climb much in the Spire. Maybe halfway up the 2nd floor. Don't make it to 10 chests every week either. Even though I do have Tinlug it's only to stage 9, but getting enough petfood through crafting is not easy and a drain on the spellfrags. It will take a lot of time to build up enough frags to upgrade anything and I really will have to chose between crafting and upgrading.
For this smaller city, it will mean (almost) no upping AWs at all, due to lack of frags and CCs and the need to craft to get an edge in the tourney. That is not 'slowing down', that is 'stopping'. These are not the same! Abysmal failure here.

Real small city, just finished chap 4, with 2 premium expansions. Hard time doing a lot of tourney. No Spire available at all yet. So the 2 AWs I have up can't be upgraded at all. There just is no way to get spellfrags and at this low level I even have an issue creating CC spells.
For this small city it means that even though I have more AWs unlocked, I can't build or upgrade any. Abysmal failure here.

So recapping; it's a disaster for small/new cities.
AWs give a needed edge in the game, especially the GA which is a huge spacesaving AW, but only IF YOU CAN GET IT ABOVE lvl 6 or so, which for smaller cities is already going to be all but impossible.
But for the large end-game players with a lot of AWs already at high levels it is more an annoyance than a way to stop them.

Then some more problems
Additionally, there is the problem -again, especially for smaller players- that building an unwanted AW just so you can sell it off in order to fill the ring again and break runes into broken shards is going to be a huge drain on the already limited frags, CC's and RR spells. Needing 1.000 frags, 1 CC AND 5 RRs to build it, then only getting back 2 CCs and 1 RR when you sell it (no frags at all) means that mechanism is very much crapped for smaller cities, making it even harder to get the runes for the ones you do want to build or up at the rune level.

Second additional problem is the KPs. The AWs were initially introduced because so many players couldn't do anything with their KPs when they got techlocked.
That same problem is returning now, but in a worse way. Making it so hard to upgrade AWs means there are a lot of AWs waiting to be upped. When all the AWs you have up are waiting to be upped (and yes, there are quite a few players with only a few AWs and now not being able to up them) there is nothing one can do with the KPs at the moment you are techlocked. You can't swap KPs if you can't receive any. So the only thing to do is start finding other players and just start donating extra, in order to get runes and KP instants. However, when you are doing that without being able to receive anything you are taking away room from that other player, which can lead to that player getting KP-locked because they received way more than they donated. Before all the yelling starts; yes, I know it will take a good amount of KPs. However, just looking on my map (granted, I have a pretty large map) I can already see a good number of players who are KP locked. I don't have that problem myself, but I could easily drop a couple of thousand KPs all over the map and KP lock a bunch of players that way, especially smaller ones.
(Edit) Just had a player who is quitting dump 980 KPs into one of my AWs. Which is the 2nd time in 2 weeks something like that happened. Not a big deal to me as I have more than enough room, but still a good example of how that might be a problem for some players.

Suggestion
This new system should have been made for later levels of AWs only. Say lvl 31-35, or even lvl 26-35. And in that case, the cost could be made steeper. That would be slowing down larger players and players with high lvl AWs, but not the smaller/newer cities.
Right now, to bring any AW from lvl 1 to lvl 11 costs 66.000 frags and 66 CCs and 30 RRs. Already almost undoable for small cities, and lvl 11 isn't even that far.
To bring any single AW from lvl 1 to lvl 35 costs 630.000 frags and 630 CCs and 140 RRs. That is going to be almost impossible even for goodsized cities.
This change (NOT an improvement as claimed by Inno) will mostly hamper any new player, as well as anyone starting a new city. However, it will only slightly slow down the really large end-game players. Even less so since they already have a lot of AWs up at medium to high levels, so they don't have to deal with the cost in frags to get them there.
If the same cost needed to up 1 AW would be limited to the lvls 31-35 it would mean huge amounts per lvl (126.000 frags and 126 CCs and 28 RRs per level (on average, so could be changed a bit to make it a rising cost). That's a very steep price, so it would slow down even large players, but would not stop anyone else to getting their AWs to a decent level.
Or it could be spread out over lvls 26-35, in which case the cost would be halved (and would give a better opportunity to make it a rising scale of cost) and yet still offer all players to at least build and up their AWs to a decent level.
 
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iamthouth

Tetris Master
Agree it should have only been done on new wonders. Ch21 was fine, and expecting the same for Ch22 onwards, but to change all the other existing ones for all levels, with such small sources of spell fragments meant a full stop for any new city.

I am now making Pet Food for 5 relics and 3 CC;s, which can then be disenchanted for 600 spell fragments.
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My stock of portal profits that I intended to use in Ch22 has taken a severe hit, it will probably go to zero, and I'll just have to take longer to do Ch22.
 

Glandeh

Active Member
Agree it should have only been done on new wonders. Ch21 was fine, and expecting the same for Ch22 onwards, but to change all the other existing ones for all levels, with such small sources of spell fragments meant a full stop for any new city.

I am now making Pet Food for 5 relics and 3 CC;s, which can then be disenchanted for 600 spell fragments.
View attachment 16909View attachment 16910

My stock of portal profits that I intended to use in Ch22 has taken a severe hit, it will probably go to zero, and I'll just have to take longer to do Ch22.
The new recipes in the MA to convert CCs to fragments are much better than converting petfood
6CC->2500 frags
12CC->5000 frags
16CC->8000 frags

And you can keep the relics :) They are sooooo useful once you hit max bonus.
 

mikeledo

Well-Known Member
I would increase the culture of the Watchtower. The amount of culture per increase in level is not consistent with the changes made in the other AWs. The cost to place an AW is much too high. The amount of magic shards to build an AW is also too high I would like to see a sizable reduction. Try not to kill the game.
 
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