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Discussion Spire of Eternity feedback

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Fairy Dust, Aug 22, 2019.

  1. RandomNo.

    RandomNo. Well-Known Member

    Sep 28, 2017
    Lol @Dhurrin you say you know where I'm coming from, but do you really? You make it sound like I am a high roller who throws money and resources at problems but that couldn't be further from the truth

    I started small. I learnt the game from people in these forums and in my FS. I learned how to battle from TedGrau, Nomar and Mykan. I learnt optimizing my cities from Soggy and the likes. And then the Spire. I made calculated moves, such as sacrificing round 6 of 18 provinces so that I could divert some resources to Spire while keeping the KP rewards on round 5, which is what I really want. I pick my battles. I fold often during Convincing when I know I have a low chance of guessing. And so I made it work and now suddenly I'm a "know it all". Okay bro whatever rocks your boat.

    Countless people never learned how to fight properly and perhaps even to figure out the logic puzzle that is the Convince option in the Spire. You just need to check the "Questions and Help" section to see the same questions repeated week after week, month after month to know this. And the forum population is just the tip of the playerbase iceberg. You say you sympathize with the small guy - so sir, if I may ask, what are you doing to help? Are you teaching them fighting? Are you teaching them how to balance resources wisely? I'd like to think that you are, because based on your responses I think you are a Doer. But if not then I say you're just enabling them. As for @The Unbeliever you can say whatever you want, it doesn't affect my game a bit. From what I've observed in the forums thus far, you'll probably complain till the day you quit this game or this game closes shop.
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2019
    osideglen and Socrates28 like this.
  2. The Unbeliever

    The Unbeliever Well-Known Member

    Jun 22, 2017
    No, @Dhurrin is simply trying to point out that you're at the point where it's relatively easy to produce far more resources than you'll conceivably *need* to produce.
    You come across as being an end-tech player, so the main sources for spending resources, (tech research & province advancement), no longer apply. That leaves just the weekly tournaments & spire, which is entirely optional where & how much one spends.

    Sacrificing round 6 of the tournament is a near-pointless argument BTW...
    Outside of working ones sleeping patterns around it, you *need* the Timewarp wonder to even make 6 rounds work if you live anywhere in Canada/US due to the asinine inability of Inno to programe the damn thing properly.
    (and yes, I know what I'm talking about, because for ME to get 6 rounds in, it meant that on day 2, i had to wake up @7am to do a round, and then wait until 11pm to clear the 3rd round - it damn near killed me due to the way it screwed with my regular sleep, so I stopped doing it!)

    Also, just saying, "hur-dur, I learned to fight from the pros!" is also semi-pointless...
    That only works properly if you can play on the browser version, since mobile players are forced to use exclusively the (now even worse!) auto-battle & watch as the useless AI ruins them. :(
    And even for those of us who are exclusively browser-only players, well, I have better things to do with my time than spend hours playing Elvenar's gakky/laggy & otherwise god-awful battle system. (it's so painful it's like they're still using the original Gameboy Colour alpha-level test of the very fist Fire Emblem combat engine!)

    And, "I know when to fold when convincing..."
    Again, yes, that's great for you because you have admitted that you have the ability to produce too many resources!
    That's not nearly as possible/easy for non-end game players though, and is especially harsh for the mid-game players who are in that kind of 'this is a living hell' where needs are beyond the average production capabilities. (ie: you really need to take more time to balance the need to continue growing with the needs for research and any tournament play for growing relic stocks - spire is literally the straw that breaks the poor camel!)

    Honestly, I've played, many, many different games with fighting in them, and I have to say that Elvenar is by far the very WORST combat system I've ever cut my teeth on... (and this is from someone who has endured the infamous Fire Emblem rng's!)
    It's not hard to figure out, but the game is rigged due to the horrific imbalances that Inno refuses to do anything about. (*cough*mortars*cough*)

    Convince isn't an argument - yes it's easy to figure out. No, it's not fair at all due to the lack of the 4th turn once you hit 6+ options.
    I gave both my fellowships links to watch multiple tutorial vids of the FoE Guild Expedition negotiations to help them understand how the system works.
    It doesn't matter though how 'good' you are once you have the 6+ options, as it all comes down to just sheer dumb luck to get a favourable outcome on that first critical turn!
    (ie: I use 5 of the 6 options - I *need* to have at least 3 end up as 'no one wants it' and be removed entirely from the pool of options, anything else, and it's either a reset or just a crap-shoot if you'll make it...)
    The 4th turn is vital, and even with it, it is still nice and challenging to get the correct resources w/7-10 options on offer. (9-10 possible choices, even with a 4th turn, I will run a 50/50 rate of getting it within 4 turns when I get a bad first round)
  3. Nonchalant Antipathy

    Nonchalant Antipathy Well-Known Member

    Feb 16, 2019
    SAME. I ain't some newbie gamer and have played many real-time and turn-based strategy games over the last three decades, but with Elvenar's battle system, strategy doesn't matter much. You're screwed, in all but very few instances, despite whatever you choose to do. Fun.
    Black watch, Dhurrin and osideglen like this.
  4. Gennavieve

    Gennavieve Member

    Sep 17, 2019
    Hello all. :) I am fairly new to the game and just now signed up to the forum. I cant see any discussions on the topic of upcoming events, so I'll ask here...what and when is the next event for US players? Thanks!
    osideglen likes this.
  5. Pheryll

    Pheryll Well-Known Member

    Jun 10, 2017
    For anything that is occurring in the future that has not been announced, you will need to go to the Beta discussion thread on this forum or the Beta forum itself. Moderators will move all Beta discussion to the Beta discussion thread anyway.
    osideglen and Socrates28 like this.
  6. Gennavieve

    Gennavieve Member

    Sep 17, 2019
    Okay thank you for the reply.
    osideglen and Socrates28 like this.
  7. wtfever

    wtfever Well-Known Member

    Jun 8, 2016
    And please hang around, we're not as grouchy as you might think. Feel free to ask anything.
    Check out https://elvengems.com/ to read about the upcoming fall event and to get many, many useful tips.
  8. RandomNo.

    RandomNo. Well-Known Member

    Sep 28, 2017
    my purpose in pointing out those things is that I was once in the shoes of any player who's small today. I didn't inherit my city, nor buy my way through. I played through all the guest races and also experienced all them resource troubles. FYI I do auto-battle 90% (ballpark figure) of the time as well, because like you said, no one has the time to manual fight, and the fighting lessons I mentioned, well, they were auto-battle lessons and unit matchup combinations.

    here's my point: we all know Spire is hard. I said so as well. That doesn't mean the small guy cannot get anything whatsoever out of it. I also feel that perhaps a reason many of the small guys fall hard in the Spire is that they do not know how best to tackle it. That's why I will continue to encourage people to try to learn how it works and try some level of it instead of simply saying "ARRGH it sucks, I QUIT!".

    anyway, the feedback here has become very circular and I have nothing more to add atm so I'm outta here. I'll be back if there are any new feedback, in the meantime, good luck.
    osideglen, Mykan and Socrates28 like this.
  9. Vergazi

    Vergazi Well-Known Member

    Dec 24, 2018
    I have a small city that just recently was able to do the Spire for the first time and it was super easy to clear up to the first door on auto-fight. After that I did a few auto and then gave up. So basically I got a nice boost for a low end city and the CCs and Frags were especially useful having just a lv2 MA. I'm fine with the Spire.
    osideglen and Socrates28 like this.
  10. Lyleth

    Lyleth Well-Known Member

    Nov 26, 2015
    @Nonchalant Antipathy I feel it is far clunkier than HOMM3 :)
  11. The Unbeliever

    The Unbeliever Well-Known Member

    Jun 22, 2017
    ...and far more rage-inducing than even the legendary Ch17-19 marathon of doom from FE; PoR.
    (4+ hours to finally get to the final boss encounter... 98% hit rate vs. only 10% w/1% crit chance from the enemy - Ike whiffles & dies, game over... the rec room walls are still blue to this day, and that like 10 years ago!)
  12. Gennavieve

    Gennavieve Member

    Sep 17, 2019
    No worries, lol. I plan on being around for a long time. :)
  13. Nonchalant Antipathy

    Nonchalant Antipathy Well-Known Member

    Feb 16, 2019
    Oh dear Gods, it is! I know this isn't a battle focused game, and I do understand that, but to steal from a game and not implement the best parts of it? WHY?!! FOR THE LOVE OF THE GODS I HATE, WHY?!!! You should, reasonably, have a better shot at winning (yes, I know manual works better), working with the bonuses of this or that, but you reach a point where it doesn't matter (quickly) and nothing you do makes it okay. This is not a true strategy setup.
  14. sputnik9009

    sputnik9009 Well-Known Member

    Apr 7, 2018
    ..................................... i think i hear the Cars too! :D:D:):):p:):):D:D
  15. sputnik9009

    sputnik9009 Well-Known Member

    Apr 7, 2018
    i have noticed that this Spire units are vary tough
    i have calculated that the loses Do Not equal the "Big prizes", as they put it.... lame prizes as i put it!
  16. osideglen

    osideglen Well-Known Member

    Oct 1, 2015
    I've stopped fighting in the spire all together, there's too many losses that it takes too long to rebuild the troops back up, which then impacts playing the tournament every week. I've played and completed all three [3] levels [floors] for the past three [3] weeks [since the Spire started] using various strategies. Sometimes troops and/or diplomacy, and I've always come away with too many losses that I have to play catch up on rebuilding both my troops and resources, mostly because the third floor [level] is way too out of balance, just to get to the top to open the last chest [which of course has the best prizes].

    Now, I do only the first two [2] levels using only Diplomacy and have great success, thereby avoiding huge losses of anything except for coin and supplies. Usually [almost always] I can solve each chest on the first try, using the technique in the game Master Mind, which someone suggested on the beta forum. I'm really surprised that I can do the first two [2] floors/levels with great success that I don't have to fight at all. I can also get thru the third floor/level as well, but there's a lot more guessing with diplomacy that I start loosing too many resources.

    I've just finished doing the first two [2] floors and did get thru all the encounters w/o using any troops, and loosing a reasonable amount of goods...the one thing that is bothersome is the large loss of supplies, where I have to use some instants to replenish. Not all the time, but enough to cause concern since I use lots of supplies to rebuild my troops and create goods. Presently I have tons of supply instants and spells, so all is good right now, but I can see a problem if I do the Spire every week.

    On top of getting the entire Library set [several times now], CC's, fragments, etc [which I do like as prizes], I've also gotten 4~6 mystery chest, including one purple chest, which has the same prizes as the final chest on the third floor [including the Genie]. If this is going to be a standard with the Spire, I see no need to do the third floor ever?

    I've concluded to keep all my troops for each week's tournament; and keep my resources & goods for doing the Spire each week, but only the first two [2] floors and skipping the last floor/level.
  17. Dhurrin

    Dhurrin Well-Known Member

    Jun 1, 2016
    I have one other serious problem with the Spire. Or rather, a lot of my FS members AND my own testcities have this problem; the mystery chests,

    All nice and well to have those mystery chests appear by chance, but having them appear at places one isn't even close to getting to is ridiculous.
    They should appear in either the area one is in, or at most the area after the next gate. It's EXTREMELY frustrating to see them appear at the very top of the Spire after for instance the second encounter, so even before one reaches the first gate.
    Again, for advanced players it's not so much of a problem since they are relatively certain of getting there if they really want to do so, but for smaller players it often is only really possible to do the encounters up to the second gate, MAYBE the third if the troops line up well, but otherwise the resources are way out of synch with what's required to get there.

    I agree, the rewards are not even close to being worth the effort. I fight most of the encounters up to the third gate. After that it depends on what I see in the opposing forces. But the fights are too costly and the convincing option becomes too much of a guessing game to be worth the effort.
  18. Risen Malchiah

    Risen Malchiah Well-Known Member

    Apr 12, 2017
    Also, the mystery chest icon does not always zoom to the chest when clicked causing us to have to scroll around to look for it. If the button isn't going to function, it would simply be better to have the chest appear next to the player's avatar. This would solve much of the frustration with regard to these chests.
  19. Black watch

    Black watch Well-Known Member

    Apr 9, 2019
    Update on the spire for me:
    I've been working the fights up to the first boss. I've only tried the catering part once and accomplished it, though I thought it was irritating. If you're going to cater and spend the "goods/supplies/money then just do it. Why make it annoying.
    So I've fought each time it's been available since it's come out, partly to let the FS I'm in know of my findings and to make suggestions. I've stopped at the first boss each time. and yes, it's too expensive above the first boss by a long shot.
    Since I'm fighting it, I just look at the catering costs and shake my head and click fight.
    Now as far as fighting, I'm actually loosing few troops in the overall picture, but I'm a fighting freak and pretty damn good at it.
    Straight fights are fairly simple. I scout, then place my troops. I fight manual in the spire and manual when I have the time in the tourneys but autofight is getting used more and more due to time. I hate the way the AI moves my pieces when I auto fight after I start a tourney encounter. I'm almost screaming at the screen, what the hell are you doing that for... so I can only imagine what is happening on a straight autofight.
    So, spire... Straight forward encounters are not quite the problem, losses I see can be high and especially for a city not set up to fight and rebound afterwards. That said, it's the multi wave fights... If you set up for the obvious first round, the second or third will often pummel the snot out of you because you can't change your match-ups. So a wise person tries to think ahead and place a more varied setup to counter the future waves. I've been pretty successful at this, but still, the losses do mount up.
    I've pushed into the second set of fights and found the fighting noticeably harder straight off, so much so that I backed off before I damaged my tourney prospects for that week.
    Upon looking at the prizes in that whole next section up to the frog, I found the prizes to be very similar to the first round and for the overall cost of doing that next round to the boss, I feel INNO has an imbalance to address.
    For those that do enjoy the spire and the tough of it, I'd say, stick to the first round and whenever you are faced with multiple waves, try and varry your troop placement a little to counter potential threats. You can kind of read into where the AI is going to go by seeing what kind of troops are being used.
    Look at what blend is being used against you and know you'll need to blend too.
    I've managed to get all of the moonstone set except the gate... multiples of the small pieces. It's nice having it... It's far from a fire bird, but I'm glad I don't have to work so hard to get CC and spell fragments, and the few thousand scrolls for me is a nice little perk.
    Conclusion: To the first boss... ignore after the spire afterward, and have your fire bird fed, and other fighting building boosts up and running for best results.
    It will take a while but you can get all the pieces of the moonstone set within the first section.
    Blessings to all, rock on!
  20. thehordling

    thehordling New Member

    Sep 19, 2019
    At first it seemed to take too many resources for too little reward, but the buildings are awesome and have great rates, and the progression in difficulty is fantastic. I really like a challenge. The amount of units involved are much larger. I could no longer just auto fight with the same units. I had to learn the strengths and weaknesses of all of the units and compose a good team and manually run through the fights. Well ballanced and I am even hoping you guys add another level some day or more events like it!