Spire Rules

[Dew Spinner]

"We investigate every report of cheating and take any actions we deem appropriate. Please note that due to privacy concerns we can not tell you about any actions taken"- Every response on the subject, ever.

Cheating on Sinya Arda during Spire has been reported on this thread and I would like to know if they are in fact going to start an investigation into it. I'm pretty sure we both know Inno isn't going to enforce their own rules. Let's see how many weeks in a row this FS gets more pts. then they are suppose to in Spire and how long Inno does nothing about it.

 

[Deleted User - 1178646]

Cheating doesn't require a reward to be involved, cheating is cheating. If you play cards with your friends, with no money involved, and cheat, it is still cheating and your friends will be very upset with you. And I would still like to hear an official response on this issue from the mods.

It's only cheating if it's outside the rules.

It does not matter if someone's cheating can affect my directly or not, cheaters are bad people who cannot be trusted. Having two accounts in a fellowship in a way that so obviously benefits only one of those accounts, as you describe you do, makes you are cheater.

Define cheating?

In my book cheating is doing something agains the rules.
it is not agains the rules to switch halfway a spire when having done parts of it already, it's not agains the rules to join a fellowship and do you spire there even if the spire has already started.

So for one it's not cheating, it might feel as cheating but it aint.
That said, the next question is, is it a problem if that happens and should there be rules agains it (or made impossible)

My answer to that is. it's not a problem and it should not be made impossible.
The why is simple, there is no in-game advantage because of it compared to others, so it would not hurt anyone.
Second the cure is worse than the disease.

It's like drinking lead while you have the common cold.
So many other would be hurt if we implement restrictions, and for what? protction of a handfull of ego's who might possibly get hurt as they make a game out of something that ain't a match.
They put value on something that has no value.

If this is just about a bragging game to brag I reached the top of the himalaya first this season. who cares we are all here to reach the top. thats the achievement who cares who reached it first. making a match out of it is just dumb.

 

[Deleted User - 1178646]

My fellowship, Knights of Good, has NEVER used that method to get gold in spire, and we get it quite often, as we did this week. Yes, it was hard getting people into it at first ... when I entered this fellowship a little more than five months ago, they had one gold medal in years of playing. But as we progressed, we did it, and we did it the right way, with enthusiasm and the right team. Lately we get it "most" weeks. NO ONE has ever climbed the spire and then left and someone else came in to climb the spire in our team. It simply was not done, not even at first to boost interest, so a filler/swap account is not "almost a must" ... if you work hard and you've got a great team (not a super high team, but a great one, like one member who always gets to the top and has about 40K points, and another even less) then you can do it without cheating.

I personally don't think gaming the system is fair. If you only have 4 mega-members in a fellowship who can make it to the top and want those gold rewards, then those four using multiple accounts over and over to get gold every week can't compare to the work of 25 members on all levels in another team who work at it, as we do in our fellowship. They get those points easily, running up multiple accounts while the other members opt out of playing. At the same time, even our little players work hard and struggle to get gold (that one with 40K doing it in the last half hour this week). The camaraderie of everyone pushing them onward, the true "fellowship" in the good sense of the word ... you get none of that with the other kind of fellowship. Frankly I would hate being in a fellowship where my diamonds each week were acquired by that method. I'd find another fellowship ... like Knights of Good. And even though the leaderboard is unimportant, it's ridiculous that the other team is in first place (not accusing our particular first place team, just making a general statement) while we are in third. If you compare effort levels, we sailed above them.

The alternative is that those 4 kick the other 21 and make a fellowship of there own with 21 alts (which is allowed and which I have seen happen)
There is always a way to game the system. and we all do game the system to some extend. it's part of any game to find the most effective way to reach results. even if it's just a boardgame like monopoly you can deploy strategies to "game the game".

btw 1611 sounds just like someone who switched halfway the spire between fellowships. hardly be called gaming the system.
at least if we only base it on the score. there can be other parameters that show othrwise.

but again it does not hurt anyone that 1 fellowship got 1611 points instead of 1575. there is 0 in-game advantage between 1330 and for all I care 16.168.156 points. the latter is just dumb and a waste of energy.

 

[samidodamage]

Let's see how many weeks in a row this FS gets more pts. then they are suppose to in Spire and how long Inno does nothing about it.

Here's a link to a mod response in 2018
Inno's dealing with push accounts
There's a link in that post to a thread from 2017 where the quoted post from the CM in the mod's response came from.
I highly doubt we're talking weeks here when this has been going on for years and privacy laws in the country where the company is located and/or does business make it unadvisable for them to reply to us with any more detail.

 

[SoggyShorts]

Let's see... how long Inno does nothing about it.

When I brought obvious push accounts to innos attention (full FS of cities that take zero actions other than donating 24 KP per day to the main account in another FS) Inno did nothing for years.
Edit: to be clear, inno did nothing about it ever. The player eventually stopped playing on their own.

 

[Dew Spinner]

When I brought obvious push accounts to innos attention (full FS of cities that take zero actions other than donating 24 KP per day to the main account in another FS) Inno did nothing for years.
Edit: to be clear, inno did nothing about it ever. The player eventually stopped playing on their own.

That's what I figured, spend time making rules and then don't enforce them...What a joke! There seems to be a question about whether this is considered pushing or not and therefore cheating. The mods could answer that question without violating any privacy laws. The BS about not being able to say anything is just Inno's cover for not doing anything!

 

[SoggyShorts]

That's what I figured, spend time making rules and then don't enforce them...What a joke!

Selective enforcement.
Back then a player was getting her wonders up to max impossibly fast using push accounts- like a couple of weeks after placing them.
BUT she must have also been buying the relics needed every 5 levels./
Also after chapter 12 was released she finished it in a few days.
Keep in mind timer instants and free diamonds didn't exist back then.

It's called "Pay-to-Push"

 

[Dew Spinner]

Selective enforcement.
Back then a player was getting her wonders up to max impossibly fast using push accounts- like a couple of weeks after placing them.
BUT she must have also been buying the relics needed every 5 levels./
Also after chapter 12 was released she finished it in a few days.
Keep in mind timer instants and free diamonds didn't exist back then.

It's called "Pay-to-Push"

I'm talking about using alts to "push" Gold Spire rewards into your main account, which include Diamonds.

 

[SoggyShorts]

I'm talking about using alts to "push" Gold Spire rewards into your main account, which include Diamonds.

I know, but pushing is pushing.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

The BS about not being able to say anything is just Inno's cover for not doing anything!

Unfortunately, this part is true. The EU a couple of years ago really beefed up their internet privacy laws, and they were already pretty strict before that, especially compared to US laws. So even though the US servers are physically located in the US, it is all still owned by a company in the EU, and there are EU residents who play on the US servers, so we get the same rules applied to us.

 

[Dew Spinner]

Unfortunately, this part is true. The EU a couple of years ago really beefed up their internet privacy laws, and they were already pretty strict before that, especially compared to US laws. So even though the US servers are physically located in the US, it is all still owned by a company in the EU, and there are EU residents who play on the US servers, so we get the same rules applied to us.

But would using alt accounts to "push" Gold Spire rewards be considered pushing and therefore cheating? I am interested to see what everyone on here thinks about that and the Mods. If you are shuffling alt accounts in and out of a FS every week to get higher in the spire and therefore collect more rewards that will go to your main account I would think that constitutes pushing.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

But would using alt accounts to "push" Gold Spire rewards be considered pushing and therefore cheating? I am interested to see what everyone on here thinks about that and the Mods. If you are shuffling alt accounts in and out of a FS every week to get higher in the spire and therefore collect more rewards that will go to your main account I would think that constitutes pushing.

The mods would have their own opinions, of course, but they are forum mods and do not have anything to do with how the game is policed. That is done by the in-game Support staff. Those Inno employees are required by EU law, and company policy, to not discuss anything that may come from a complaint that is filed.

 

[Dew Spinner]

The mods would have their own opinions, of course, but they are forum mods and do not have anything to do with how the game is policed. That is done by the in-game Support staff. Those Inno employees are required by EU law, and company policy, to not discuss anything that may come from a complaint that is filed.

I'm looking to see what players on the forum think, it would be nice to get an established response from the Mods but I ain't holding my breath!

 

[Lelanya]

I feel we are missing an important point here, while beating our heads against a brick can be fun it got old for me a few months ago. Someone is always going to go their own way, and derail this thread like so many others.

Can we ask for Spire start to be moved?
Is it feasible to lock FSs for this purpose?
What else can be done?

 

[Deleted User - 1178646]

But would using alt accounts to "push" Gold Spire rewards be considered pushing and therefore cheating? I am interested to see what everyone on here thinks about that and the Mods. If you are shuffling alt accounts in and out of a FS every week to get higher in the spire and therefore collect more rewards that will go to your main account I would think that constitutes pushing.

7. Pushing
Operating a “push-account” is forbidden. This is defined as unbalanced routine resource (resources, Knowledge Points etc.) transfers from one account to the next even if involved accounts do not belong to the same player.
It is forbidden to create trades in any form (goods, Knowledge Points etc.) that involve multiple worlds.

What is transferred from 1 account to the next?
You call it pushing but according to the definition of pushing it is not.

Pushing means you get a benefit, what benefit do you get from aquiring 4528 spire points in a week instead of 1330?

 

[helya]

"We investigate every report of cheating and take any actions we deem appropriate. Please note that due to privacy concerns we can not tell you about any actions taken"

This is the most we can say on this matter. Most actions will not necessarily be visually seen by other players, that does not mean nothing has happened.

 

[Dew Spinner]

7. Pushing
Operating a “push-account” is forbidden. This is defined as unbalanced routine resource (resources, Knowledge Points etc.) transfers from one account to the next even if involved accounts do not belong to the same player.
It is forbidden to create trades in any form (goods, Knowledge Points etc.) that involve multiple worlds.

What is transferred from 1 account to the next?
You call it pushing but according to the definition of pushing it is not.

Pushing means you get a benefit, what benefit do you get from aquiring 4528 spire points in a week instead of 1330?

Gold Spire rewards including Diamonds, I am sure you have calculated all of this out and that is why you are participating in this behavior. If there was no benefit to you then I am sure you wouldn't participate in this behavior. And before you go off, you admitted to participating in this behavior.

 

[Deleted User - 1178646]

Gold Spire rewards including Diamonds, I am sure you have calculated all of this out and that is why you are participating in this behavior. If there was no benefit to you then I am sure you wouldn't participate in this behavior. And before you go off, you admitted to participating in this behavior.

I am participating in it?
I said once you guarantee it people will be more willing to go to the top and you don't even need it

Also I am participating into nothing we don't need it, we get between 1550-1575 points a week with 25 unique players (no alts allowed), and due to a change in players got once above 1575.
We really do not care of we get place 1 or place 400, as long as gold is gold.

but I have absolutely no issues with it if a fellowship uses it to make that jump, I rather have them use a tactic like that then kicking out 12 players destroy there fellowship and using multiple alts because those 12 want the diamonds and do not have the time to wait for others to come around (this is actually the most common strategy I have seen)

If any fellowship wants to get all out and het 2000 points, why would I care? it's not a battle, we already have gold thats all we need.
And those 2000 might be cool for those in that fellowship but it will make them look bad to outsiders.
but if you just want to reach gold for all I care use it, I have seen fellowships use it for a few weeks at most before they became stable gold fellowships. imagine you spending 200 diamonds and then you miss it on 5 points (and 1 player refuses to do 1 step more, yes that top level fellowship for 5 years no longer exist it was explosive.) the chance of you spending 200 diamonds again next time is zero to none, for your de spire is destroyed. if an alt can fix that and makes them all happy I am in for it.

I do not understand why that loophole must be closed.
If it would not hurt anyone, fine close it. stops some annoying whining of some.
But this DOES hurt many players, not because they would no longer get gold anymore, but because there ability to switch between fellowships would be a tiny timed window or they would miss out of spire access, or they need to leave there current fellowship just before the end of the tournament (and that also removed those points from the tournament score which could penalise the former fellowship and you'll be the bad player who left)

So if we have an issue that has no impact on any other players game (if I get gold of bronze it does not impact you in any way)
But if we "fix" it it will hurt all players. would it make even sense to consider it?

This issue only exist in some peoples mind because they made a "battle" out of the ranking system.
While there is absolutely no difference between the nr 1 and nr 2 or 3 or whatever as long as it's gold that ranking has no other value to show how far a fellowship is towards bronze, silver or gold.

It allows you when switching fellowships to see which fellowship barely gets silver and which might become a gold one in the furture.

But some of you, are battling for 1st, and if another fellowship surpasses you because for example a player who switched sides and now the fellowship gets 1611 points it's the end of the world. you got there first, and it's yours to claim. they destoyed your personal game and now you ego has been hurt.
At the same time the other 30000 players on your world can't care less, but you are furious. this must be fixed, it's cheating!
I am sorry but hurting millions of players across many servers and many worlds just to statisfy your ego is pathetic, ridiculous and selfish.

An accidental leaving of the fellowship, and accidental kick from a mage, leaving for a minute to help a friend out to find out it takes 24h to be allowed to return, being kicked from a fellowship for whatever reason the (arch)mage decided will hurt you as you will be locked out of the spire and all your progress is lost. you can no longer join another fellowship and recover as like an FA once started you're no longer eligable for the spire.
Imagine you being a member of a religious group that does not allow modern equipement like computers and phones on sunday. you'll be unable to switch guilds without damages. so many people would be hurt if the spire gets locked for no good reason.

The FA has a competitive component to it, it makes sense to lock out players to keep the competition going, spire has no competitive part there is nothing to win there based on your ranking, it only has a cooperative part that churns out rewards.

btw you screamed it was cheating here and cheating there and pushing here and pushing there.
I just pointed out that according to the rules it's neither pushing nor cheating.

 

[SoggyShorts]

Gold Spire rewards including Diamonds, I am sure you have calculated all of this out and that is why you are participating in this behavior. If there was no benefit to you then I am sure you wouldn't participate in this behavior.

There are exactly zero rewards given for going from 1330 points to 1575+.
None.
Not a single reward whatsoever.
The spire leaderboard beyond 1330 points is purely for bragging rights.

Now if some fellowships are going from 1200 to 1330 by bringing in alts, that might be pushing, but good luck even finding that, and as @CrazyWizard said, once you hit gold a couple times and your FS knows that going to the top will give full rewards then it becomes a self-fulfilling deal.

Getting gold makes you get gold players, which makes you get gold.

All 3 of my main FS went from zero spire rules to always gold in 1-2 months. No alts, nothing special just a set minimum of 1 floor, then 2 and done.

 

[CrusaderMichael]

my gosh some of you write entire books on the simplest of topics. Like someone asks you what 1 + 1 is and you'd write a 5 page essay as a response.

YES, it is cheating if you find a glitch or error in the game design and intentionally use it for ranking advantage. This isn't an opinion it's a fact. No 80 page essay required as a response.

YES, it is cheating even though there is no reward other than ego etc even if you do it only beyond a certain point. Whether or not you have a competitive bone in your body means nothing. This isn't an opinion it's a fact. No 80 page essay required as a response.

The End.

And no I will not read an 8 page essay as a response to me or anyone else.

1 + 1 is 2... requires no more words than that. And they could handle this tiny spire thing and the new to fellowship issue fast.... except.........

(insert slow moving turtle emoji here)