Have Made Game Too Tedious and Difficult

[DeletedUser1055]

I am an Archmage in Winyandor. I have been playing daily since late August or early September. My fellowship is in the top 75 in my world. Many of my players, myself included, are getting ready to quit the game. You have made it almost impossible to advance, to build, to have enough goods to trade, to research without being at the computer 24 hours a day. I do believe you are "pricing" yourself right out of a game that should be fun, but no longer is. No matter how much you upgrade your troops, the game is always one step ahead of you and battles are practically impossible to win. Quests keep repeating themselves and aren't worth the reward to bother with. Supplies are either harder to get, or you must use them all for a simple upgrade or to unlock something that should not cost anything after all the effort put in to unlock it. You work like crazy to research, only to find that you cannot unlock what you've been working on. My players are becoming discouraged and try as I might to encourage them, I see their point. You have made the game so that it is no longer fun and you almost dread logging in because all you are doing is "spinning your wheels" and getting nowhere. Good job, creators of Elvenar! No wonder we Archmages have so much difficulty keeping our fellowships motivated. We are fighting against a game that no longer wants you to play or can hold your interest. You are killing your own game!

 

[DeletedUser594]

I took a look at your fellowship on Win. You have a group that could rise a lot higher in rank. The spinning your wheels you're talking about- that would stop completely and you would would have extraordinary growth with one change to your city and the cities of your top 5-10 fellowship members. You have to stop trying to produce everything because it's impossible. The entire game is structured around this core concept and no one beats the system. Does your fellowship trade? I imagine your boost is over 200% at your score? You're boosted in plank, silk and dust. That's a great spread. Why produce all the other nonsense? You have other members- you have every single good covered in your top 5- do you know how fortunate that is? Have you taken a look at how much resource is wasted producing non-boosted?
Just those 2 scroll factories tie up 762 population, spend 60K+ in coin/day, over 6K in supply daily to get 804 scrolls?
Your #3 member is boosted in scrolls but she's making silk, you're boosted in silk and make scrolls??? With a 200% boost if you switched over from scrolls to silk you would get 2400 silk for the same cost in coin, supply and pop that gets you 800 scroll right now. Why make crystal?- it's expensive...let your #2, #4,and #5 people handle the crystal in which they're boosted . How much more would everyone produce and how much more of your limited resources could you channel toward city growth?
If you ran every Non-Boosted factory in your city 4x/day and once over night you would get 5,186 goods at a cost of 545,000 coin, 54,500 supply. It sucks up 4663 population and takes 7 expansions worth of space up--not including the space for the 1500 pts of cultural items
That's what you have tied up to get 5200 goods.
If you took out every one of those non-boosted manufactories and put in 3 planks, 2 silk, 1 dust, assuming a 200% boost. you would free up 3,000pop.
and save 300K/day + 30k in supply and you would still get 5,100 goods and free up almost 5 expansions worth of space.


I have 4 steel, 3 elixer, 3 scroll. And that's all i produce and i trade. I don't ever worry about the cost of unlocking something. If anything I'm overproduced in tier one and two, with only tier 3 under 20K because I've been upgrading so that's gonna shoot up too.
Produce boosted. Trade. Your city will grow, your fellowship will grow, and the game is a lot less onerous when you're not scrapping goods together, and a city at your level doesn't need to be.

 

[DeletedUser]

I took a look at your fellowship on Win. You have a group that could rise a lot higher in rank. The spinning your wheels you're talking about- that would stop completely and you would would have extraordinary growth with one change to your city and the cities of your top 5-10 fellowship members. You have to stop trying to produce everything because it's impossible. The entire game is structured around this core concept and no one beats the system. Does your fellowship trade? I imagine your boost is over 200% at your score? You're boosted in plank, silk and dust. That's a great spread. Why produce all the other nonsense? You have other members- you have every single good covered in your top 5- do you know how fortunate that is? Have you taken a look at how much resource is wasted producing non-boosted?
Just those 2 scroll factories tie up 762 population, spend 60K+ in coin/day, over 6K in supply daily to get 804 scrolls?
Your #3 member is boosted in scrolls but she's making silk, you're boosted in silk and make scrolls??? With a 200% boost if you switched over from scrolls to silk you would get 2400 silk for the same cost in coin, supply and pop that gets you 800 scroll right now. Why make crystal?- it's expensive...let your #2, #4,and #5 people handle the crystal in which they're boosted . How much more would everyone produce and how much more of your limited resources could you channel toward city growth?
If you ran every Non-Boosted factory in your city 4x/day and once over night you would get 5,186 goods at a cost of 545,000 coin, 54,500 supply. It sucks up 4663 population and takes 7 expansions worth of space up--not including the space for the 1500 pts of cultural items
That's what you have tied up to get 5200 goods.
If you took out every one of those non-boosted manufactories and put in 3 planks, 2 silk, 1 dust, assuming a 200% boost. you would free up 3,000pop.
and save 300K/day + 30k in supply and you would still get 5,100 goods and free up almost 5 expansions worth of space.


I have 4 steel, 3 elixer, 3 scroll. And that's all i produce and i trade. I don't ever worry about the cost of unlocking something. If anything I'm overproduced in tier one and two, with only tier 3 under 20K because I've been upgrading so that's gonna shoot up too.
Produce boosted. Trade. Your city will grow, your fellowship will grow, and the game is a lot less onerous when you're not scrapping goods together, and a city at your level doesn't need to be.

Why, hello, varron, but I disagree. While it should be encouraged to build only your own boost manufactories, every style of gaming (self-sufficiency) has to have a niche, or players (like me) will feel alienated.

 

[Valtitude]

I've tried Elvenar from both points of view. Self-sufficiency was all I had on Aren for a couple of months, due to the neighbor purges that took place just as fellowships were opening. For about two months, goods were impossible to come by. Income from neighbors - non-existent. Self-sufficiency worked, until I joined a fellowship where the non-boosted factories started dragging me down. I had several of each non-boosted factory (NBFs), upgraded as far as I could get them.

I felt like I was being asked to jump off a cliff when players suggested I slowly start selling those NBFs. I decided to trust this advice. 'Hey, I could always rebuild those factories!' I told myself. I started with the tier 1 factories (fewer points lost) and learned how to lessen the impact of these sales with upgrades of other buildings. It wasn't until I sold the first couple of NBFs, that I really saw a difference - the goods I'd been putting into keeping those NBFs up and running, were now in my stock/ inventory, a place I liked to see 'em. My city really did begin to run more smoothly, so I adapted this process to my other Elvenar cities.

This was hard for me, I won't tell you otherwise. I know from approaching fellowship players with this idea, it's a very touchy subject. Everyone has to play this game the way they want to play it. Yes, absolutely! But - we also have to adapt to the way the game is being built/ written, too. Each player can decide what direction to take - and has to accept (or not, if you want to fight really hard) whatever consequences happen as a result.

Some players have been hit by the updates harder than others - probably, because of the way they play and have built their cities. I fully understand the frustrations you're feeling Roriann. I hear you.

 

[DeletedUser]

I've tried Elvenar from both points of view. Self-sufficiency was all I had on Aren for a couple of months, due to the neighbor purges that took place just as fellowships were opening. For about two months, goods were impossible to come by. Income from neighbors - non-existent. Self-sufficiency worked, until I joined a fellowship where the non-boosted factories started dragging me down. I had several of each non-boosted factory (NBFs), upgraded as far as I could get them.

I felt like I was being asked to jump off a cliff when players suggested I slowly start selling those NBFs. I decided to trust this advice. 'Hey, I could always rebuild those factories!' I told myself. I started with the tier 1 factories (fewer points lost) and learned how to lessen the impact of these sales with upgrades of other buildings. It wasn't until I sold the first couple of NBFs, that I really saw a difference - the goods I'd been putting into keeping those NBFs up and running, were now in my stock/ inventory, a place I liked to see 'em. My city really did begin to run more smoothly, so I adapted this process to my other Elvenar cities.

This was hard for me, I won't tell you otherwise. I know from approaching fellowship players with this idea, it's a very touchy subject. Everyone has to play this game the way they want to play it. Yes, absolutely! But - we also have to adapt to the way the game is being built/ written, too. Each player can decide what direction to take - and has to accept (or not, if you want to fight really hard) whatever consequences happen as a result.

Some players have been hit by the updates harder than others - probably, because of the way they play and have built their cities. I fully understand the frustrations you're feeling Roriann. I hear you.

Ok to sum up what you and Varron are saying. To enjoy this game you must play the game the one and only way the game will let you play to succeed. If your style doesn't fit into the narrow game path then this game isn't for you anyway. Ok the point is why should it be so narrow? For a game to really catch on shouldn't it have more then one path so more then one type of player can enjoy it? Isn't that how a game reaches a bigger market? The one way is the only way is limiting and formulaic. The way this game is works for you but not for others. What is being suggested is get flexible expand the field of this games appeal. Some people my self included like to have a balance so I can help others and myself. This game is billed as a city building game. (A very option limited one.) How many real world cities have you been in that only supplies the wood you need and you have to drive to the next city to get glass and another city for steel? There are cities like that yes. They are dying because of such limitations. we want build cities and grow with some of our style mixed in not one size fits all. If getting to the top is all that matters at any cost then the game as it is kind of works. If you want to enjoy the journey and help others as you go it could be improved.

 

[Valtitude]

I understand, Thomlian. I'm not telling anyone to do anything. I can only talk about my experience with the game. Players have to make their own decisions. Idk ... I guess game developers (devs) get to decide how they want to see their game played - it's their game! Players can give them input, but if it's not the direction the devs see for their product - what will be, will be! Meaning in every way ...

I agree, it seems more balanced for players to have our own factories of every type. I helped players when I had all of the NBFs - I help players now. Balances in goods and trade take a lot of effort by those in fellowship 'management' - Archmages and Mages. A balance of who's boosted with what goods etc in a fellowship, is not simple and changes when players come and go.

Some goods come in thru neighbors in the trader and can be distributed to fellowship players thru trade. I don't think the idea in Elvenar is to have every city or fellowship be totally self-sufficient. This is just my observation. There's a social aspect to Elvenar I believe the devs are trying to move forward. I trade for goods with several of my neighbors nearly daily. These neighbors have goods our fellowship needs. I trade my excess stock to bring those goods into our fellowship, to turn them around for our fellowship players. This seems pretty much business as usual in the real world, to me.

I agree with you about the style being limited and one-size fits all critique. I joined Elvenar with the idea that I would build a city similar to Paris, France, keeping culture in the heart of the city. Ha! The Tour de France was about to begin when I joined. My 'beautiful city' iidea went quickly out the window. pfft! I soon discovered, Elvenar is not this type of creative game, although I steadfastly try to keep my creativity alive in my cities. My cities are not as efficient as some, but more so than others. It is necessary to pay attention to the game framework, though, or as you've seen, players - cities - fellowships can have a very difficult time. I try to combine my creativity with 'results per square' thinking. It's part of the challenge of this game.

I don't work for InnoGames, I'm just a player. I understand the frustrations you're experiencing because I've been thru a number of them myself. All I can share is what I know about Elvenar and my experience with this game ... and wish you and your fellow players well.

 

[DeletedUser1055]

Why, hello, varron, but I disagree. While it should be encouraged to build only your own boost manufactories, every style of gaming (self-sufficiency) has to have a niche, or players (like me) will feel alienated.

Yes, we trade A LOT! I am a very active Archmage. I check and help out members several times a day with my boosted goods. I encourage members to check the trader and help with their boosted goods. You have to give neighborly help or you're out. However, some, and I am one of them prefer to keep some NBF as a back up. With the costs for everything rising, I like to have some NB Goods on hand. You can't always get what you need strictly by trading. I can't force members to trade. As others have mentioned, everyone likes to go at it in their own way. Neighbors "out in the world" can help, but it is so very difficult to get to those who are actually still playing, and as much as I go for upgrading army size first, and building more amories, it seems the game is almost rigged against you winning, it always seems to be one step ahead of your army. I appreaciate everyone's feedback, but I don't think you can make this a "one size fits all" game, with 25 people in a membership.

 

[DeletedUser]

I understand, Thomlian. I'm not telling anyone to do anything. I can only talk about my experience with the game. Players have to make their own decisions. Idk ... I guess game developers (devs) get to decide how they want to see their game played - it's their game! Players can give them input, but if it's not the direction the devs see for their product - what will be, will be! Meaning in every way ...

I agree, it seems more balanced for players to have our own factories of every type. I helped players when I had all of the NBFs - I help players now. Balances in goods and trade take a lot of effort by those in fellowship 'management' - Archmages and Mages. A balance of who's boosted with what goods etc in a fellowship, is not simple and changes when players come and go.

Some goods come in thru neighbors in the trader and can be distributed to fellowship players thru trade. I don't think the idea in Elvenar is to have every city or fellowship be totally self-sufficient. This is just my observation. There's a social aspect to Elvenar I believe the devs are trying to move forward. I trade for goods with several of my neighbors nearly daily. These neighbors have goods our fellowship needs. I trade my excess stock to bring those goods into our fellowship, to turn them around for our fellowship players. This seems pretty much business as usual in the real world, to me.

I agree with you about the style being limited and one-size fits all critique. I joined Elvenar with the idea that I would build a city similar to Paris, France, keeping culture in the heart of the city. Ha! The Tour de France was about to begin when I joined. My 'beautiful city' iidea went quickly out the window. pfft! I soon discovered, Elvenar is not this type of creative game, although I steadfastly try to keep my creativity alive in my cities. My cities are not as efficient as some, but more so than others. It is necessary to pay attention to the game framework, though, or as you've seen, players - cities - fellowships can have a very difficult time. I try to combine my creativity with 'results per square' thinking. It's part of the challenge of this game.

I don't work for InnoGames, I'm just a player. I understand the frustrations you're experiencing because I've been thru a number of them myself. All I can share is what I know about Elvenar and my experience with this game ... and wish you and your fellow players well.

I wasn't meaning you were telling anyone. I was meaning that you were from your perspective summing up the game direction. I was summing up your summation. I do thank you both for your input it helps me see the game better. This forum category is ideas and suggestions. Suggesting is what we are doing. Suggesting ways to broaden the interest in this game and keep us wanting to play. Expand the paths of play find other ways to make the game a challenge not just making it harder to play. Yes it is innogames game and yes they can do what they want with it. We aren't saying what we would like is the only or the current way is wrong. We are asking please consider what we suggest it could enhance the game. If how they have the game is all it will every be, then why have ideas and suggestions? Or limit what we can suggest to the color of buildings, the design of the weapons the troops carry. We both agree the game has limitations. Limitations like programs can be changed. If the company people choose to read the comments on this subject, they may find some useful points. If all of us had said nothing there would be less chance to find anything useful.

 

[DeletedUser]

Yes, we trade A LOT! I am a very active Archmage. I check and help out members several times a day with my boosted goods. I encourage members to check the trader and help with their boosted goods. You have to give neighborly help or you're out. However, some, and I am one of them prefer to keep some NBF as a back up. With the costs for everything rising, I like to have some NB Goods on hand. You can't always get what you need strictly by trading. I can't force members to trade. As others have mentioned, everyone likes to go at it in their own way. Neighbors "out in the world" can help, but it is so very difficult to get to those who are actually still playing, and as much as I go for upgrading army size first, and building more amories, it seems the game is almost rigged against you winning, it always seems to be one step ahead of your army. I appreaciate everyone's feedback, but I don't think you can make this a "one size fits all" game, with 25 people in a membership.

I agree with Roriane. We have a great fellowship not needing fixed. But right now so many are needing the same things and those with the needed boosts can't help everyone. It is those times when people who still can produce some of what they don't have boosts for are needed. Of my many neighbors 5 are active and maybe two are daily active. In my other would I have two now and then active neighbors, a fellowship that maybe three trade yet again I am likely going to have to find another, fellowship. Options not one size will enhance the game not change it completely.

 

[DeletedUser]

Ok to sum up what you and vorron are saying. To enjoy this game you must play the game the one and only way the game will let you play to succeed. If your style doesn't fit into the narrow game path then this game isn't for you anyway. Ok the point is why should it be so narrow? For a game to really catch on shouldn't it have more then one path so more then one type of player can enjoy it? Isn't that how a game reaches a bigger market? The one way is the only way is limiting and formulaic. The way this game is works for you but not for others. What is being suggested is get flexible expand the field of this games appeal. Some people my self included like to have a balance so I can help others and myself. This game is billed as a city building game. (A very option limited one.) How many real world cities have you been in that only supplies the wood you need and you have to drive to the next city to get glass and another city for steel? There are cities like that yes. They are dying because of such limitations. we want build cities and grow with some of our style mixed in not one size fits all. If getting to the top is all that matters at any cost then the game as it is kind of works. If you want to enjoy the journey and help others as you go it could be improved.

Oh dear Gods, PREACH it, thomlan! *wishes she had a million likes to give*

 

[DeletedUser]

I understand, Thomlian. I'm not telling anyone to do anything. I can only talk about my experience with the game. Players have to make their own decisions. Idk ... I guess game developers (devs) get to decide how they want to see their game played - it's their game! Players can give them input, but if it's not the direction the devs see for their product - what will be, will be! Meaning in every way ...

I agree, it seems more balanced for players to have our own factories of every type. I helped players when I had all of the NBFs - I help players now. Balances in goods and trade take a lot of effort by those in fellowship 'management' - Archmages and Mages. A balance of who's boosted with what goods etc in a fellowship, is not simple and changes when players come and go.

Some goods come in thru neighbors in the trader and can be distributed to fellowship players thru trade. I don't think the idea in Elvenar is to have every city or fellowship be totally self-sufficient. This is just my observation. There's a social aspect to Elvenar I believe the devs are trying to move forward. I trade for goods with several of my neighbors nearly daily. These neighbors have goods our fellowship needs. I trade my excess stock to bring those goods into our fellowship, to turn them around for our fellowship players. This seems pretty much business as usual in the real world, to me.

I agree with you about the style being limited and one-size fits all critique. I joined Elvenar with the idea that I would build a city similar to Paris, France, keeping culture in the heart of the city. Ha! The Tour de France was about to begin when I joined. My 'beautiful city' iidea went quickly out the window. pfft! I soon discovered, Elvenar is not this type of creative game, although I steadfastly try to keep my creativity alive in my cities. My cities are not as efficient as some, but more so than others. It is necessary to pay attention to the game framework, though, or as you've seen, players - cities - fellowships can have a very difficult time. I try to combine my creativity with 'results per square' thinking. It's part of the challenge of this game.

I don't work for InnoGames, I'm just a player. I understand the frustrations you're experiencing because I've been thru a number of them myself. All I can share is what I know about Elvenar and my experience with this game ... and wish you and your fellow players well.

How does this not have more "likes"? I applaud you, Valtitude. I felt stupid, posting what I did earlier, as I broke my own cardinal rule of not judging the actions of others, but to hear the different reasons for why they do things is enlightening and well worth the read.

 

[DeletedUser]

Yes, we trade A LOT! I am a very active Archmage. I check and help out members several times a day with my boosted goods. I encourage members to check the trader and help with their boosted goods. You have to give neighborly help or you're out. However, some, and I am one of them prefer to keep some NBF as a back up. With the costs for everything rising, I like to have some NB Goods on hand. You can't always get what you need strictly by trading. I can't force members to trade. As others have mentioned, everyone likes to go at it in their own way. Neighbors "out in the world" can help, but it is so very difficult to get to those who are actually still playing, and as much as I go for upgrading army size first, and building more amories, it seems the game is almost rigged against you winning, it always seems to be one step ahead of your army. I appreaciate everyone's feedback, but I don't think you can make this a "one size fits all" game, with 25 people in a membership.

*holds up hand for high five*

I am also an active Archmage of your ilk. *blows on nails and buffs them on her shirt*

Have you run the numbers? I keep thinking that I am missing something. I believe if I tore down my NBFs and built boosted instead, I would not be ahead in any meaning of the word. Then I got to pondering... A bad action, usually, but I still don't think that I could use the wholesaler to gain the same amount of NBG strictly by goods. For less money and supplies, maybe? But what I am concerned with is how LONG it takes to gain a good. I will try to be logical, patient, and then record, analyze the data.

 

[DeletedUser]

Oh dear Gods, PREACH it, thomlan! *wishes she had a million likes to give*

Thank you Talisman : ) and Mr. Nietzsche. ; ) One has to wonder what Nietzsche would think of all this. haha.

 

[DeletedUser]

This is a game with so much potential worth pursuing.

 

[DeletedUser]

Probably say to burn it to the ground, "witchfire!", but I use it as more of a guide in my way of thinking.

 

[DeletedUser]

Thank you Talisman : ) and Mr. Nietzsche. ; ) One has to wonder what Nietzsche would think of all this. haha.

Eeee- Stop that! *hits self* I prefer to be called Talisman, so, thank you. It has meaning, and not just the meaning of words.

 

[DeletedUser]

Probably say to burn it to the ground, "witchfire!", but I use it as more of a guide in my way of thinking.

Good Giude and yes he likely would have. haha.

 

[DeletedUser]

Good Giude and yes he likely would have. haha.

How... do people follow so blindly? I don't... I mean...Stop the periods, but I'm thinking. It... I understand religion and I approve of it. But not questioning or asking why? Not so much. If a way of thinking asks me to stop thinking, I will glare at you and be indignant.

*laughs* The game is this way, and the mods, to no fault of themselves, agree. Oh so fascist! I cannot believe I cannot discuss what I experienced, even though it was good.

 

[DeletedUser]

I agree and i wish I knew why they do. Getting lost in the game can be great. But I guess I think too much to get too lost in a game.

 

[DeletedUser]

Have you found a way to stop your mind? Besides alcohol, which I've tried and continue to try even though it hurts me. People who say, "I zoned out.", generate such contempt from me. How?! How do you do that?!

Yeah, I've forgotten how to combine posts and follow the rules, and a mod will yell at us with obscure language that I can only laugh at. Good times.

~~~~~ MissAnthropy merged them for you ~~~~~
The easy way to merge posts is:
1) Highlight JUST the material you want to append
2) Click on the Reply tooltip, which dumps the quote into the edit box at the bottom of the page, wrapped up in some BBCode
3) Ctrl+A, then Ctrl+X to get the stuff onto your clipboard
4) Click on edit to open the base message, then Ctrl+C to append the quote or insert it wherever makes the most sense
5) Add your commentary and (re)Post your reply
6) Delete your extraneous posts

While I'm about it, let me PLEAD for small snippets. I'd rather not read entire posts a half dozen times, and your argument is much stronger when we can tell precisely what it was that caught your attention.

While we're quoting Friedrich Nietzsche

Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster.
And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

Ah, women. They make the highs higher and the lows more frequent.