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Your Elvenar Team
How is this not "pushing"?
- Thread starter SoggyShorts
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DeletedUser3507
Guest
To answer your question yes. And happens all the time with new accounts joining a FS.
DeletedUser3507
Guest
Its done in FS as a general practice to help new players no need to bother staff with it... Some peoples kids jesh...
Pheryll
Set Designer
Its done in FS as a general practice to help new players no need to bother staff with it... Some peoples kids jesh...
And this was confirmed not to be "pushing". So, Player A was not pushing, even if it was perpetual and not just for a fellowship start up.
Sometimes I think posts like these are mostly knee jerk reactions.
DeletedUser5800
Guest
@SoggyShorts
Vigilante justice is often rationalized by the concept that proper legal forms of punishment are either nonexistent, insufficient, or inefficient. Vigilantes normally see the governing body as ineffective in enforcing the law/rules; such individuals often claim to justify their actions as a fulfillment of the wishes of the community. They essentially decide that they are above the law/rules in the name of the law/rules, which is asinine. Once you start picking which law/rules can be broken for any reason, no matter how noble the purpose, the whole book goes out the window and with it the very thing you stand for. Shrouding themselves from being identified in the name of protection from prosecution/personal repercussions is a sure way to identify that a so called 'vigilante' is aware of this and has decided to deliberately break a law/rule in an effort to enforce one they feel is more important. Where I feel the Dev's have been lacking here is that they should have shut this whole nonsense down immediately for the preservation of the system regardless of intention. Perhaps I should start an alt just to belittle the system in an effort to encourage faster response in the blatant disregard of it.
This was no longer an issue of pushing the moment it became about vigilante style self community policing. So even if I believe in the cause being championed, I can not ethically support the method being used while maintaining any respect for the law/rules as a whole.
Vigilante justice is often rationalized by the concept that proper legal forms of punishment are either nonexistent, insufficient, or inefficient. Vigilantes normally see the governing body as ineffective in enforcing the law/rules; such individuals often claim to justify their actions as a fulfillment of the wishes of the community. They essentially decide that they are above the law/rules in the name of the law/rules, which is asinine. Once you start picking which law/rules can be broken for any reason, no matter how noble the purpose, the whole book goes out the window and with it the very thing you stand for. Shrouding themselves from being identified in the name of protection from prosecution/personal repercussions is a sure way to identify that a so called 'vigilante' is aware of this and has decided to deliberately break a law/rule in an effort to enforce one they feel is more important. Where I feel the Dev's have been lacking here is that they should have shut this whole nonsense down immediately for the preservation of the system regardless of intention. Perhaps I should start an alt just to belittle the system in an effort to encourage faster response in the blatant disregard of it.
This was no longer an issue of pushing the moment it became about vigilante style self community policing. So even if I believe in the cause being championed, I can not ethically support the method being used while maintaining any respect for the law/rules as a whole.
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DeletedUser3507
Guest
Only way you're pushing is if "you" have multiple accounts feeding into one that "you" own. You might want to reread what she said.
Pheryll
Set Designer
I did not mention anything of the sort.
DeletedUser13467
Guest
The moderators have already made the rules quite clear.
The Dark Side feeds off your hate! Join the alt side!
SoggyShorts
Mathematician par Excellence
I was with you for all of this, but after that our thoughts begin to diverge.
Inno has said that they want us to report cheaters, so in at least some way they playerbase is expected to help with this.
The simple way is to take screenshots, and follow up to see if there is an obvious pattern
I don't know enough about programming to understand all the details, but if Altman has found a faster, more effective way of finding and tracking them, how do you think it's done? My guess is the same sort of info gathering from the game files that several Beta players use to tell us about new event buildings that don't even exist yet. For now Inno has turned a blind eye to that behaviour (breaking rule #11 of the EULA), but that's no guarantee that they will be cool with what Altman is doing. Hence the anonymity.
Imo this does not rise to the level of vigilantism we get from DC and Marvel characters as he is hardly taking the law into his own hands. It's more like filming a crime without consent and threatening to report it.
This is not entirely Altman's fault. Just look at the reactions people had.
Altman: "Hey, I found a new way to catch cheaters, please help spread the word"
Responses:
"You're a forum alt complaining about alts, I can't take you seriously"
"Inno doesn't need your help, either they have it handled or don't care, so there's no point doing anything."
"I need to donate 5 KP to my neighbors as a thank you, why am I labeled a cheater?"
"Is swapping KP with my FS member cheating?"
"Calling cheaters cheaters is harassment!"
"Messaging cheaters and warning then that you are going to report them is considered a threat"
Between people having no clue what pushing is, and others not understanding some rather basic concepts, the heart of the idea has become more than a little muddled.
He's already made it clear that only the most extreme cases are getting that email. (600+ KP from non-FS members on a regular basis with ZERO KP going the other way, ever) and that should allay any fears of innocent players wrongly getting that email. Even if an innocent player somehow has a legit reason for getting that many KP, so what? They got an email that they can ignore.
Now if the only complaint against what Altman is doing is that he's breaking the same EULA rules that give us advanced info on what buildings will be available in events, where's the outrage for that? How many of us have saved up snowflakes/eggs/nuts for a building that we would have no way of knowing about without that kind of action? Even Beta is only 1 week ahead, yet we can go to elvenarchitect and see all of the building stats and plan accordingly from day 1 release on beta, so again, where's the outrage for that?
DeletedUser
Guest
"Methinks thou doth protest too much." -- William Shakespeare
SoggyShorts
Mathematician par Excellence
"To do a great right, do a little wrong" -- William Shakespeare
DeletedUser51
Guest
While everyone appreciates a bit of cultural enrichment from William Shakespeare, it really has very little to do with the thread subject.
Please try to stick to the original idea posted here
Please try to stick to the original idea posted here
DeletedUser13467
Guest
Push or push not, there is no try -Yoda?
DeletedUser5800
Guest
I honestly had no idea how anyone got this info. I assumed it was leaked on purpose by someone associated. So yes, if info. is gained through breaking the rules, that also would be wrong. I also think most of the problems in any of this is indeed from there being such a 'loosely ran ship' if you will. I get it, I just don't personally support it for reasons I have made clear. At best I believe it sets a precedent that is worrisome.
That said, people will do what they do and whomever is actually in control will do what they do, I can no more get alt man banned then he can the names on his list so there is really nothing more to be gained here... and I still can't figure out if you are Bruce Wayne, Robin or Jim Gordon.
Sir Squirrel
Artist EXTRAORDINAIRE and Buddy Fan Club member
If AltMan messaged players he believes are cheating and gave them the proper info on pushing, (as there isn't any in game) and mentioned that they might get reported if they are breaking the rules. Then I don't see a problem. It would be more like trying to help another player that might not know that they are cheating. But to outright say they are cheating when he doesn't have the info INNO does (amount of kp's given to wonders for as long as players have been playing). I think that might be a little too much. In my opinion it is all in the way it is done. Less Vigilante more spreading the info to players that might not know.
But he isn't doing anything wrong by reporting players he thinks are cheating, we are encouraged to report them to support if we think players are cheating.
But he isn't doing anything wrong by reporting players he thinks are cheating, we are encouraged to report them to support if we think players are cheating.
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SoggyShorts
Mathematician par Excellence
That's what makes me question rules in general. It's smart for a company to have a bunch of blanket rules so that if and when they want they can enforce them.
Like data mining or w/e it's called when players get info from the game files. I imagine one reason the rule is there is so that no one can find data from the game and sell it to another company. Then along come players who take event building info from the files and share it with the playerbase. Bam! Rule broken! But wait... what is the consequence of this? Players are actively talking about the upcoming event on the forums, sharing the information with their fellows, and are generally more engaged than they were before the leak. Perhaps we leave the rule up, but don't enforce it this time.
For the sake of society we need rules and laws, but it's the spirit of those laws that really matters.
Here we see another great example of a rule that is in place to protect the integrity of the game, but doesn't need to be enforced all of the time.
How many players have introduced this game to their spouse or other family members?
Of those, how many are in a FS together?
Did they all make sure to have another FS member send the invite, and isn't that really just a loophole?
If they sent the invite themselves, they broke the rule, simple as that. Except it's not so simple, is it? Does Inno really want to crack down on couples that play together?
I'm by no means saying that rules are meant to be broken-- that is a ridiculous statement, but the blind enforcement of a rule without looking at any mitigating circumstances should also be avoided, if possible. That's why I won't immediately condemn a player for breaking a rule until I have looked at both the motivation and the consequences(or possible consequences) of their actions.
Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this post are those of SoggyShorts and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of Soiled Trousers International™. Also any perceived admission of guilt was made in jest and/or while intoxicated.
DeletedUser13467
Guest
More so, my friend can invite my wife, my wife can invite her friend, her friend can invite my step son, for example and so on...
The bottom line is this: Don't cheat by using multiple accounts to boost one, no matter who owns it. Or Inno could simply end offline FS invites all together. By requiring potential members to be online to accept, you can fix part of the Pushing issue. Join the online side...
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DeletedUser51
Guest
I feel quite odd quoting myself, but this is indeed a direct quote from the updated Game Rules which I posted in July of 2015 (which is when the multi-account rule was removed from Elvenar). This rule has nothing to do with fellowships, but an 'invite' feature from other Innogame games which rewards players who invite other players to the game. At this time we have no such feature available here for anyone to be able to violate this part of the rule.
I have done what I can in this thread to explain the differences between multi accounts (which are perfectly acceptable no matter how many you have) and pushing, as well as explain that no one would be banned immediately for pushing without first being contacted directly through an in-game support ticket to discuss the matter.
There are always going to be players that want to have something defined in an 'absolute' manner but as the pushing rule is constantly being reviewed and evolving as the game does, that is simply not possible.
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SoggyShorts
Mathematician par Excellence
Ahh I wasn't aware of that, thanks for clarifying (again
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