Solving Spire Encounters

[Moho]

By the way, did you auto fight or manual fight?

I used auto fight. For a host of reasons, my brain would not allow me to fight manually.

 

[Raccon]

Manual fight takes a long time. I noticed the game runs faster on mobile so you can do more. The original desktop version is unbelievably slow with frequent freezups and and game resets

 

[Myne]

I play as an elf. I have never thought to battle mages with mages. I don't know why. I am fascinated by the damage your banshees did.

 

[samidodamage]

@Myne
Lots of caveats in this post, lol! I realize it doesn't apply to earlier chapter cities that don't have access to as many bldgs as I've accumulated over the years.
I'm also an elf (though I'm talking Ch16/17 cities with all 3* troops, lvl 21 Dragon Abbey, fed lvl 10 Fire chicken, DA/UUU/MMM placed weekly) and I'm old and retired so I have the time to fight manually. My Blossoms can take out 1 stack of enemy mages with one shot up until the higher level Spire battles and somewhere around province 21 or so for tourneys. They have a higher initiative than any enemy mage, so will always get first strike against a Mage (the reason I prefer them over Sorceress/Banshee v Mages). With manual controls and their range, I can even usually move them out of reach of enemy mages if there's an obstacle preventing them reaching the Mages on that first strike. Since Archers (also have lvl 21 Needles and ELR placed) draw the first strike of those cursed Mist Walkers, a mix of Archers/Blossoms can be a viable (though unconventional) combo in many battles resulting in way fewer losses than you'd imagine and if no Mist Walkers can be a zero loss battle. With the increased attack and health from those assorted boosts, my light range is no longer 'about even' with enemy light range, they are superior to them and the same thing works with mages.

 

[Moho]

I have never thought to battle mages with mages.

I hadn't realized that either until one day when I thought I was going to lose less if I used an equivalent unit instead of one that was going to be crushed or ineffective. My thought was something like "0 is higher than -1." But my idea was not accurate because when you use a lineup consisting of a monochromatic formation, they are going to act like an invincible Greek phalanx. My epiphany was supported by the advice which hvar had given me long ago and which probably I had not fully understood at the time. It took a long time of trial and error through repeated Spires until I managed to learn the basics and master these (now obvious) tricks.

 

[crackie]

With manual controls and their range, I can even usually move them out of reach of enemy mages if there's an obstacle preventing them reaching the Mages on that first strike.

Yes, this! Two manual fighting strategies not often talked about...running away and skipping a turn. AI will charge your Heavy Range into a Heavy Melee enemy, and also to its death. I will note usually they will hive mind to go after your archers first, BUT an enemy mage will target your mage first instead of your archer if the mage is in range. I have replicated and tested it.

 

[samidodamage]

an enemy mage will target your mage first instead of your archer if the mage is in range. I have replicated and tested it.

Absolutely. That's why I send in Archers*-they go before the Mages- and move them closer to the Mages (while killing the Mist Walker), so they're all a Mage can reach. They absorb both light range and mage damage better than a blossom.
*I also get a bunch of free Archers from Shrooms I can afford to sacrifice.

 

[Raccon]

Lately I've noticed Mist walkers have become less predictable and more random in their attacks. They used to prefer shooting mortars and dogs first (in the absence of mage or LRs on the field) even when I had heavy melee squads in the lineup. now they really surprise me, some times they shoot my HM's and ignore dogs.
Or I used to put a dryad as decoy to draw their fire so my mages could do their job unhindered, that's not always the case anymore, once they ignored my archers and shot my banshee instead

 

[Myne]

You guys have given such good info!
This is me running away with the weapons I could salvage!

*edited by a mod to replace fun animated image with boring still image​

 

[Iamaita]

I autofight on mobile as an elf. I probably use blossom mages more than any other troop type.

I have always felt like I have better outcomes in battles where I send in only one troop type. It’s interesting to hear why that happens since I see none of it.

I usually wait until Tuesday to put down a five day and feed my bird, then hit spire and tournament at the same time. I always go to the frog but can’t go all the way up every week. I try to make sure I have the goods to buy my way through on the rounds I can’t win on autofight. Sometimes I just look at that first laboratory encounter, think “hah!” and then retreat from spire for the week.

 

[BrinDarby]

It’s interesting to hear why that happens since I see none of it.

if you can do manual battle, as soon as it asks you to fight, you can
just say "finish battle automatically" and sit there and watch what
AI vs AI looks like..... it gave me great insight into how the AI fights.

 

[Raccon]

Sometimes I just look at that first laboratory encounter, think “hah!” and then retreat from spire for the week.

One thing I noticed in spier is that the really hard encounters usually followed by much easier ones. Many times I get defeated and have to negotiate that encounter. The encounters that follow after that would be more manageable until you encounter another tough one again.

 

[Iamaita]

One thing I noticed in spier is that the really hard encounters usually followed by much easier ones. Many times I get defeated and have to negotiate that encounter. The encounters that follow after that would be more manageable until you encounter another tough one again.

It depends on the week and where I am in the tech tree, but these days if they ask for a crap ton of sentient goods and the enemy troop line up is impossible to beat on auto… I’m probably just going to run away. Maybe once I get my three star frogs unlocked, I will be willing to park a while in the tech tree and run up the tower every week. Until then, I am saving every sentient good I make for research.

 

[crackie]

Or I used to put a dryad as decoy to draw their fire so my mages could do their job unhindered, that's not always the case anymore, once they ignored my archers and shot my banshee instead

Well, I can at least say that isn't a new problem. I've been studying the Mist Walker Russian Roulette problem for awhile and have not figured it out to any level of consistency either. Mainly, I want to use mages, but mages are very hard to use with Mist Walkers lingering. I know I can get away with it if I keep them 3 rows away from her, but sometimes that isn't possible. She doesn't always take my light range bait, but will hit my mage instead AND TAKE OUT THE WHOLE STACK! Other times she leaves my mages alone even though they are in range, which encourages me to roll the dice sometimes. (The other out-of-order targeting anomaly is when they skip my archers to hit my golems, but that’s usually not during opening round.)

I have always felt like I have better outcomes in battles where I send in only one troop type. It’s interesting to hear why that happens since I see none of it

I have moved away from the one troop type strategy for autofights. What's more effective autofighting for me is to count out how many rounds I have before the fight turns into a melee situation. This number will change as you go up the Spire and tourney so you have to adjust accordingly. The quicker it gets to melee situation, the less number of mages and light range you can use since they get slaughtered in melee situations. If everyone is within everyone else's range, the advantages of manual fights go out the window anyway. It becomes more like how AI would naturally fight and therefore, you don't need to care about where and how you position them. This strategy is a matter of knowing initiative and movement numbers. For me, it becomes more like chess and I can see in my head where the pieces on the board are after 2 rounds.

and sit there and watch what
AI vs AI looks like....

You might need to do it with a paper bag to breathe into and not after you eat so you don't lose your lunch. A lot of

 

[samidodamage]

I've been studying the Mist Walker Russian Roulette problem for awhile and have not figured it out to any level of consistency either.

There are definitely times I scratch my head going 'wth was that?!'
Assuming the AI is all numbers-based, it appears to be some calculation that's derived from the initiative/range numbers of target units. I *think* it was @CrazyWizard who explained to me how they tweaked it some for the first strike, but I can't find the post, so maybe not. Whoever it was used the Mist Walker as an example and listed the player units in descending order of preference as target for first strike that he had tested and confirmed.
It's obviously not a 'clean' look at range/initiative numbers, and I suspect it depends on how many of each you deploy (3LR/2M v 1LR/2M/2HR v any other combos)
Ex: Archer: movement+strike range=7 & initiative=18; Dryad: mvmt+stk=7 & initiative=17; Ranger: mvmt+stk=8 & initiative=20; Blossom: mvmt+stk=7 & initiative=16
If those were the only numbers used (and I'm adding for simplicity as well as my lack of advanced math skills, lol!) Ranger would be the first choice at 28, Archer 2nd at 25, Dryad 3rd at 24 and Blossom 4th at 23. Obviously that's not what happens on the MW's first strike, lol! I've yet to see a Ranger targeted on first strike when a Blossom was within range. I have, however, seen a Blossom targeted when an Archer was within range, thus the 'wth was that?!' reaction...

 

[Iamaita]

I have moved away from the one troop type strategy for autofights. What's more effective autofighting for me is to count out how many rounds I have before the fight turns into a melee situation. This number will change as you go up the Spire and tourney so you have to adjust accordingly. The quicker it gets to melee situation, the less number of mages and light range you can use since they get slaughtered in melee situations. If everyone is within everyone else's range, the advantages of manual fights go out the window anyway. It becomes more like how AI would naturally fight and therefore, you don't need to care about where and how you position them. This strategy is a matter of knowing initiative and movement numbers. For me, it becomes more like chess and I can see in my head where the pieces on the board are after 2 rounds.

I play on my phone. So… I don’t have any idea how the troops move or what their attacks look like. I can’t see any terrain. I can’t even see the stats for each troop type. My logic is much simpler. If I have more troops I win. If I have fewer troops but they are more awesome, I win unless I’m massively outnumbered. (With needles, toads and abbey I just assume my ranged troops and mages are more awesome) It’s less calculation and more divination. I just sort of get a feel for what works and do that. This is easy in the gateway, manageable in the high halls and much harder in the laboratory just because of troop size. I think autofight means something different if you play on browser than it does if you play mobile.

With what you have said about splitting troop types, I am wondering now if the reason it seems like I do better sometimes with one troop type instead of two is because I’m picking troops that have a wonder to improve them instead of splitting them with troops that are still at base stats.

 

[crackie]

I manual fight one city and autofight the second to research various techniques for both. The battlefield is in the wiki. The positioning and stuff they talk about applies to autofight as well. The beauty of understanding melee situation is you don’t care what the terrain looks like because you can assume everyone is in range of everyone else regardless of terrain. In browser, you can click autofight and be done (same as mobile) or you can click manual fight first, then do what Brin said and watch an autofight play out. So technically, you can “hybrid fight” in browser, as in start the fight manually and let AI finish. You can turn it into an autofight at any point on a browser and just skip to the end if you don’t want to watch the animation play out.

The movement and initiative numbers are on the wiki page. Here is an example of why it matters. Say you have paired a golem against a war dog. On paper, that is a good matchup (and it is). However, both golem and war dog have the same initiative number of 7. This means the tie breaker of who goes first is position, with higher position going ahead. Therefore, sometimes your golem moves before a war dog and sometimes after. Why does that matter? Because if your golem moves before a war dog, he can’t reach him! Your golem essentially just walks about and skips a turn on his opening round. The golem can likely reach a war dog after the war dog has already moved though. Then your golem actually fires on his opening round. You get one more shot in instead of sightseeing. Likewise, even though the frog is also a heavy range like golem, frogs always go before the war dog. You always get to at least weaken the dog before he takes a bite out of your archers and mages. In the upper provinces, sometimes your stack can only handle one bite. Hence, even if you can’t see the board or terrain, it matters who goes first.

 

[BrinDarby]

Not only are thier anomolies in 1st attack, but just placing of troops
at times is just wrong..... it should be top/bottom 4,2,1,3,5...
As has already been described, I've used dogs/frogs before and on 1st attack
the frogs didn't go 1st.... .

A simple graphic on the choose troops screen should already be there.
Also as you add'd troops, they could be represented into the graphic.
Thats just how on the Map a player is choosing, Seperate should somehow
be order of troops used, but then you get into anitiative.....

Even for Auto-Fighters, we all need to see terrain when choosing troops,
since terrain really will matter that much along with anitiative.

 

[Iamaita]

I manual fight one city and autofight the second to research various techniques for both. The battlefield is in the wiki. The positioning and stuff they talk about applies to autofight as well. The beauty of understanding melee situation is you don’t care what the terrain looks like because you can assume everyone is in range of everyone else regardless of terrain. In browser, you can click autofight and be done (same as mobile) or you can click manual fight first, then do what Brin said and watch an autofight play out. So technically, you can “hybrid fight” in browser, as in start the fight manually and let AI finish. You can turn it into an autofight at any point on a browser and just skip to the end if you don’t want to watch the animation play out.

The movement and initiative numbers are on the wiki page. Here is an example of why it matters. Say you have paired a golem against a war dog. On paper, that is a good matchup (and it is). However, both golem and war dog have the same initiative number of 7. This means the tie breaker of who goes first is position, with higher position going ahead. Therefore, sometimes your golem moves before a war dog and sometimes after. Why does that matter? Because if your golem moves before a war dog, he can’t reach him! Your golem essentially just walks about and skips a turn on his opening round. The golem can likely reach a war dog after the war dog has already moved though. Then your golem actually fires on his opening round. You get one more shot in instead of sightseeing. Likewise, even though the frog is also a heavy range like golem, frogs always go before the war dog. You always get to at least weaken the dog before he takes a bite out of your archers and mages. In the upper provinces, sometimes your stack can only handle one bite. Hence, even if you can’t see the board or terrain, it matters who goes first.

This is not entirely new… I remember getting a crash course in it when I first started playing. I did even do a few manual fights on the browser back then and it was eye opening. But it’s just not practical for me to play on a browser so I never really dug into it and sort of just committed to the rock/paper/scissors approach on mobile. As I unlocked more troops it was pretty obvious that some are better than others against certain enemy line ups. I’ve half way paid attention to conversations like this one over the last year and always think something like “oh that’s why frogs are good. Cool” But mostly I just do what works without a complete understanding of why it works. Once I get to the laboratory tomorrow, I may ask for help. If you guys can coach me through auto fighting more encounters on mobile… then I will try to learn the stats on the wiki and try your more mathematical approach. As long as I can do it exclusively from mobile.

Thanks for going into so much detail and giving so many examples. I’m probably not the only mobile player to find it informative and helpful.

 

[samidodamage]

I've used dogs/frogs before and on 1st attack
the frogs didn't go 1st

Frogs go before hellhounds. Cerebus go before frogs.
That may not explain what you've seen ('cause like I said, there are some 'wth' moments, lol!). Since enemy cerebus are only seen in the map provinces and hellhounds are the only enemy dogs seen in Spire/tourney, usually when someone is talking about frogs v dogs, they mean the hellhounds. Usually if they're talking about cerebus, they'll usually say cerebus.
Also, Wiki has a battle page with several pics in the 'The Battlefield' section of how troops are positioned:

Not that it negates the idea that it would be more helpful if something like your graphic (or the ones in this suggestion thread)was included in-game, esp for the terrain issues. In that thread, we learn that the suggestion can't seem to get into the top 3 the community managers vote to send to the devs.
My fear: we keep hammering them with 'this isn't fair to mobile players who don't have manual fight and can't see the obstacles' and we get an update announcement: "to make battles consistent across both browser and mobile platforms, manual fights are being removed from the browser"
***sami fainted***