Diamond Purchase Protest - Changes to Lighthouse & Bell Tower AWs Unacceptable

[SoggyShorts]

You now are putting up a non-sensical argument just for the sake of arguing.

I'm really not trying to start an arguement, I'm just trying to look at things objectively rather than emotionally.

Look at all the topics on this forum. And go ask people on the map.
There are SEVERAL people saying the number of visits stayed the same.
There are SEVERAL MORE people saying the number of visits dropped
There are NO people saying the number went up.

I have read every single post on the US and Beta forums on this subject, I'm just not convinced that the forums represent the playerbase. Those that got hurt by the change are way more likely to post, and even if someone who was happy with the 25% more goods they are getting considered posting that here, they very likely would not for fear of being attacked.

On this topic you consistently say there is not enough data available (on which I agree) then start arguing from assumptions.

1. Someone uses a tiny amount of data to come to a conclusion.
2. I point out that they may not have enough data.
3. I use a tiny amount of data that would lead to the opposite conclusion.

#3 is just a method to reinforce #2.

On the other hand, Dhurrin is right that nobody should b able to claim with a straight face that these are going to increase neighborly help.

I try to keep the "increased" visits as separate from "increased goods" claims from inno. While I can come up with possible theories why the total goods gained from CL/BS worldwide may increase for "most" players, anything I come up with for increased visits is a much bigger reach.

 

[DeletedUser2870]

@SoggyShorts

1 - I may be emotional at times, but that mostly does not prevent me from being logical. Call me emotional, fine, but then point out the flaws in the logic.

2 - No, I feel the forum DEFINITELY does not represent the playerbase.
The forum represents the ACTIVE player base. Its very well known that most of the players who start never make it to the forum. Then again, it might be argued that most players who start never get past chapter 3 either, so its highly questionable whether those should be included in the playerbase. And this issue only concerns players in chapter 5 and up, so those players are completely irrelevant to the argument.

Yes, those who are hurt are more likey to post, but whether anyone is not posting for fear of being attacked is something I doubt. But then again, its not a reason that would ever stop me from posting anything.
Also, if there was a truly significant number of people benefitting from this change it would find its way to the forum or to the facebookposts. I haven't seen any sign of that at all.

Also, there MAY be people who now get 25% more goods. I however think that is an EXTREMELY small group of players, namely only those into chapter 5 and up AND who before this change did only 10-15 visits or so a day AND only a few days a week AND are now going to persitently do more visits or visit more often. That's a lot of conditions to be met on a group of players. And the ones in chapter 5 and up ALREADY are reasonably active or they wouldn't have gotten there.
So making a change that benefits only such a small group makes no sense. Even less so when it (significantly) hurts a good deal of the active players.

3 - The data is something we can argue over all day or week. Doesn't matter. I still hold to my view that there at least IS data for my assumptions/views and there is NO data shown for the other side. So I'll take that bit of data over no data at any time.
And whether that data is a tiny amount or not or statistically viable or not ALSO is something we can argue about. Since it represents answers from the most active players I feel its at the very least significant enough not to be dismissed without evidence to the contrary.

 

[DeletedUser5800]

I don't have the thing and won't, and I haven't bought diamonds in many months and won't because of the whole picture that this is just one more part of...
but if I were to be completely objective I would say a simple solution normally would be to have the third chest trigger the old code and reset to the new every 24 hrs so the stupid thing does both...
but of course the coders couldn't write that without a bug for a pile of diamonds the size of the entire forums egos combined!

 

[SoggyShorts]

The forum represents the ACTIVE player base.

I don't think this is true. There are only 12,000 "members" on the forums, and many of those are players that have quit, just like in the game. The difference is that forums members aren't ever deleted, where at least some cities have been deleted.
The only way we can claim to represent the active playerbase is to assume that
1. Each of us speaks for our entire fellowships, and at least one member of every active FS is posting on the forums.
2. There is no difference between active players that are so active that they also post on the forums and active players that don't care about the forums.
I have a few active players (defined by me as players that log in and do their FS visits every day) who never even post in chat let alone on the forums.
My position is that we few regular forum posters are not normal nor average.
EDIT: After a quick check it looks like there are ~400 active fellowships on a server. That's 2,000 active FS on US servers. No way in hell are there 2,000 active posters on the forums, so I would say the majority of fellowships (and players) are not represented here.

Also, there MAY be people who now get 25% more goods. I however think that is an EXTREMELY small group of players, namely only those into chapter 5 and up AND who before this change did only 10-15 visits or so a day AND only a few days a week AND are now going to persitently do more visits or visit more often. That's a lot of conditions to be met on a group of players. And the ones in chapter 5 and up ALREADY are reasonably active or they wouldn't have gotten there.
So making a change that benefits only such a small group makes no sense. Even less so when it (significantly) hurts a good deal of the active players.

All that is needed to gain goods from the change is
1. Have the CL/BS
2. Always do between 1 and 29 visits
That's it. Every single player who meets those 2 simple criteria will get an increase in goods.
How many of those players are there? I don't know, but I would suggest that no one except inno does.

1 - I may be emotional at times, but that mostly does not prevent me from being logical.

I may have been hypocritical about allowing emotion to cloud judgement since I was annoyed at your use of the word nonsensical, for which I apologize.

 

[DeletedUser2870]

@SoggyShorts

I disagree. A forum is not like a democracy where some players have to represent others.
But there is no denying that those on the forums tend to be the most active players. There is no need for all active players to come on to the forums, there need to be enough to make a good representation of all different kinds of active players. Considering the many different views on many topics, that at least seems to be the case.
And so, no, the forumgoers are NOT the average player, but they do in my eyes represent the active players. And though not all are representing their enitire FSs, some are.

Also, there is no reason to say that people do not get removed from the forums but do from the worlds. One of the biggest problems on the worlds are cities that meet the standards for being safe/immune, and there are AT LEAST as many over-chapter-5-cities that are abandoned as there are people who are still registered to the forums but have moved on.

Problem is that, apart from the forums and the FB page, there is no way to get players feedback.
So one either has to accept the forum as a reasonable representation of the active playersbase, in which their feedback and concerns are to be taken seriously, or one has to go along with the reasoning they are exceptional players and represent only a small exceptional group, in which they can be ignored. Of course, in that case, there is no reason to even HAVE a forum for feedback, remarks or whatever, so why even spend time and resources on keeping it up?

(as usual, edited for typos)

 

[SoggyShorts]

But there is no denying that those on the forums tend to be the most active players.

Exactly.

• Players who post on forums are the most active.
• Players who are the most active do the most visits.
• Players hurt most by changes are ones who did the most visits.
• Players on forums = players most hurt by changes,

So if 90% of forum posters were hurt by changes that does not mean that 90% of all players feel the same way.

the forumgoers are NOT the average player, but they do in my eyes represent the active players.

I think our definitions of "active" are different. To me an "active player" is any player that logs in 4 or more times per week. They certainly aren't hardcore, but neither are they "inactive". It seems to me that either you are unaware of just how many of these players exist, or are dismissing them when you talk about forum representation and how the changes effected them.

 

[DeletedUser2870]

As I stated before, there is a problem with that definition, which you yourself have brought up on different subjects too;
There are many accounts that fit that definition, but arent really active but are only push accounts for either use on tourneys, or to dump kps. And nobody knows how many of those accounts there are.

And I am pretty much aware of how many of those players there are. Heck, I am one of them myself. In fact, logging in less and less. And yet, I too am significantly hurt by this change, so your assumption on me not knowing is wrong.
Also, I am not dismissing them at all. However, those players arent hurt any more or less than anyone else. If someone logs in 4x a week and did more than 30 visits, he was hurt by this, UNLESS he now starts logging in more days a week to do visits. Only then is he gaining.
In the mean time, for many players this change hurts them because they receive fewer visits.

But again, people are creatures of habit. Any player who logged in only 3 days a week or 4 days a week had a reason for doing so, likely something to do with schedules in RL. So its unclear how many will actually change those schedules to log in on more days, AND whether they will continue to do so in the long run, or will revert back to their old schedules. Personally I believe most will soon revert to their old schedules, as that is human nature too.
And even if they do log in an additional day, the question remains whether he will do more visits, or will now limit them to the amount needed to get the 3 chests.
Again: there is NO information available on ANY of these topics. Or at least not to the players.
So anything and everything is an assumption, without data, so no-one here on the forum can answer that, meaning that arguing on the results is worth less than nothing, since no-one will be able to support any of those claims.

And again, your arguments do make sense, except you have no data to support them.
So we can continue discussing this forever, but the ONLY evidence there is, at the very least seems to support my claims.

And so we return again to the people on the forum. Apparently neither you nor Inno feel they are representative and thus can be safely ignored. Fine. I'll grant that. Then there is no -beep-ing reason to post anything or do or say anything, either for or against any change, since it doesn't matter one way or the other, making the forum a complete waste of resources for the game and a complete waste of time for the visitors.

 

[SoggyShorts]

And again, your arguments do make sense, except you have no data to support them.
So we can continue discussing this forever, but the ONLY evidence there is, at the very least seems to support my claims.

And so we return again to the people on the forum. Apparently neither you nor Inno feel they are representative and thus can be safely ignored. Fine. I'll grant that. Then there is no -beep-ing reason to post anything or do or say anything, either for or against any change, since it doesn't matter one way or the other, making the forum a complete waste of resources for the game and a complete waste of time for the visitors.

I would argue that your "data" of the ~30 forums users that are speaking out here is no more valid than my 47 FS members.
If you want to agree that neither of us has enough data, then fine- but I simply will not agree that you have more pertinent info than I do.

As for whether there is any point discussing it on the forums, you're probably right there. How many inno posts have there been on the subject?
I only continue to post on the subject for 2 reasons-
1. It's a mostly enjoyable mental exercise, and
2. There is always the chance that if both sides come to an understanding that we can either accept and be content with inno's changes or present a united front for asking them to tweak things in a reasonable manner.

As I stated before, there is a problem with that definition, which you yourself have brought up on different subjects too;
There are many accounts that fit that definition, but arent really active but are only push accounts for either use on tourneys, or to dump kps. And nobody knows how many of those accounts there are.

Wait are you suggesting that most players that only log in once a day 5 times a week are push accounts? That seems like a stretch.
Do players build the CL/BS on push accounts? Why, unless they are actually doing 100s of visits for goods, and then are they really push accounts? If so, I say we need more of them, not less.
You can easily do most things in this game with a single log in for 10 minutes each day, and not be a push account.

Also, I am not dismissing them at all. However, those players arent hurt any more or less than anyone else. If someone logs in 4x a week and did more than 30 visits, he was hurt by this, UNLESS he now starts logging in more days a week to do visits. Only then is he gaining.

Yes, this has been clear from the beginning

• players that do less than 30 vistis now get more goods with the CL/BS
• players that did more than 30 visits now get fewer goods with the CL/BS.

there is no arguing that.
Our difference lies in that I think it is possible that "active" players with the CL/BS who do fewer than 30 visits out number those that do more.
The only data we have is
1. inno said "most" players will receive more goods. Might be right, might be a lie.
2. My FS has a dozen players with the CL/BS that didn't do more than 30 visits. Might be normal, might be freaks.
3. Players that have complained about the changes on the forums did more than 30 visits. Might represent a lot of players might not.

 

[Pheryll]

Soggy, keep in mind that those who benefit may outnumber those for whom the change was intended. Timon and Rike announced that the change was designed to increase visits and neighborly help (while also relieving those who over-visit from an arduous chore), and estimated around 5-10 visits for all three chests. So the change was intended for those visiting less than 10 times (this data may be almost completely filled with zeros). If it is zeros that Elvenar is chasing after to change, then the "improvement" of the Bellspire/Lighthouse may not accomplish what was intended. If people are ignoring the KP, relic, and spell rewards from chests, they are likely also to ignore the goods.

 

[DeletedUser10114]

The change has pretty much stopped my neighborly help. The usual neighbors who used to visit me have pretty much stopped. I have also stopped. I am now only visiting neighbors who visit me, which in the last 3 days was only one neighbor. Not only has visiting stopped, but trading has also stopped. I used to pick up 2 star and 3 star trades for ALL my lower level neighbors - no matter what the trade was for. Now I do not unless it is someone wanting my boosted goods for something in the same tier. Likewise, none of my neighbors are picking up my trades anymore. Only my fellowship is picking up my trades. Players just dont have the goods to trade anymore.

This change has curbed my enthusiasm for this game, and I do not find it as much fun as before. Honestly this change feels like my last straw. I am sick of Inno's fake reasons for the changes to disguise their greed. I would have quit the game because of this change if it was not for my fellowship and the friends I have made. They are the only reason I am still playing. If Inno does not restore the crystal lighthouse, which I have spent actual money to upgrade, then if I keep playing I will no longer be the heavy diamond player I was. This protest has taught me how to play without using diamonds. It is not as much fun, and I do not spend nearly as much time playing now. If Inno continues to keep taking away from their loyal players, and continues to be greedy, then I will find another company / hobby to spend my money on.

the issues you are having with your trader are non-typical I think? I have cities in several FS on E server in the top ranging from #2 to the mid 120's and none of them have had a noticeable slowing in the trades taken. Maybe you have had some members leave and the boosted goods balance is out of wack? that certainly can effect your trader.

 

[DeletedUser6219]

I will not be boycotting. I play actively every day (twice a day) on 4 worlds. I enjoy the bonus to NH more than I do the actual goods. This change has helped me as I only have time to visit my FS members and occasionally a few neighbors. Then again my spending on the game is minuscule compared to most people who frequently buy diamonds. I generally spend around $50-80/month.

 

[DeletedUser2870]

@Soggy,
No, I am not saying most of those are push accounts. Now I definitey get the feeling you are deliberately trying to twist my words. I stated there are many push accounts and nobody knows how many. And I was specifically talking about accounts that are active under your definition, (logging on several times a week) but show no progress.

As for more people benefitting: nobody in his right mind can keep saying that this change is going to encourage visits.
Also, nobody can say that the statement of the players getting only a tiny bit fewer goods is right either.

either way, its no longer much of an issue. Inno obviously doesn't give a flying -beep-, or by now they would have reacted in some way.
Which means I'm no longer going on with this discussion. And I'll finish this last chapter here, and then probably will call it quits as I've had enough of being treated like this by a game. For me, this just is the last straw

 

[SoggyShorts]

No, I am not saying most of those are push accounts. Now I definitey get the feeling you are deliberately trying to twist my words. I stated there are many push accounts and nobody knows how many. And I was specifically talking about accounts that are active under your definition, (logging on several times a week) but show no progress.

Then I misunderstood. It made no sense to me why you pointed out accounts like that when they wouldn't have the CL/BS anyways.

As for more people benefitting: nobody in his right mind can keep saying that this change is going to encourage visits.
Also, nobody can say that the statement of the players getting only a tiny bit fewer goods is right either.

I agree, I looked as hard as I could, and it's very unlikely that enough players will start doing visits on off days to get chests just because of the goods increase for doing under 30 visits.
For the "tiny bit" there's no excuse.

 

[DeletedUser4132]

Just remember.... the door closes just as easy as it opens ........... Thank you Inno Games for for the entertainment you provide beyond the game playing field...LMAO

 

[DeletedUser12233]

the issues you are having with your trader are non-typical I think? I have cities in several FS on E server in the top ranging from #2 to the mid 120's and none of them have had a noticeable slowing in the trades taken. Maybe you have had some members leave and the boosted goods balance is out of wack? that certainly can effect your trader.

I have noticed that the lower level players who put up trades for under 1000 goods are still there daily. But my neghborhood players who put up large trades (which are very few) seem to have slowed down alot.

 

[DeletedUser12233]

Many of us are very concerned about the changes made to Lighthouse and Sanctuary AWs which results in a very significant reduction in the worth of those AWs to active players who visit their neighbours regularly. The feedback from players in beta and here is clearly not being listened to and the response from Support is 'Raise the issue on the Forum'. I have also been asked by other players to raise this as a new thread.

As will be seen in the comments to game release 39 the feeling from many players is passionate about the effects of the changes made.
We now have 2 top Fellowships withholding purchases of diamonds in Arendyll and would welcome further support for our protest, I am told that Fellowships in other Worlds are also taking this action.

In Arendyll Phoenix Power has changed our name to PHOENIX POWER - PROTESTING and our Fellowship description now reads -

During October 2017 our players will not be purchasing or using diamonds as a protest regarding the changes to Lighthouse & Bell Tower AWs. Support and developers have failed to respond to the genuine concerns of a high volume of players in beta and the live forum regarding these changes.

The changes will reduce the volume of goods received by all active players who visit more than 30 Fellowship members and/or Neighbours each day. This will have the effect of reducing neighbourhood visits significantly as the benefits disappear. It will also have an effect on the ability to participate in tournaments and negotiating provinces. The value which players have invested in these AWs have been taken resulting in that investment now being almost worthless.

Inno - PLEASE PLEASE reconsider this change as it is blatantly unfair.

We encourage other Fellowships to join our protest.

There has been no comment from any of the game moderators in the forum responding to any of our comments and we seem to be totally ignored. The initial announcement of the change here and previously in beta were blatantly untrue for active players.

We ask all other Fellowships in all Worlds to support our protest by not using or buying diamonds during October in the hope that we will be given a reasoned argument supporting the changes made or a modification to give some of the significant value taken away from active players who love this game.

As another member said on a different forum, Inno could leave the rewards in the chest for the players that do not visit alot and also return back to the lower amounts for each visit. Have it do both.

I have been playing games for a long time. Elvenar is the first game where it seems like the developers take things away from the players. Why do they do this? If they want to add something, great. But do not add something and take something away too. It defeats the pleasure of getting something new.

 

[SoggyShorts]

I have been playing games for a long time. Elvenar is the first game where it seems like the developers take things away from the players. Why do they do this?

It's called a nerf, and it is very very common. Virtually all mmos do it at least occasionally.
When you make an upwards balancing change(a buff) it is possible to overdue it, especially when multiple parts of the game are changed at the same time.
There are only 3 options when this happens.
1. Ignore it and leave the imbalance.
2. Reduce the stats on the item/building
3. Increase the stats on every single other thing in the game* including all other items/buildings as well as costs etc.
*note: option #3 is actually the exact same thing as #2, but far more difficult and time consuming.

I'm not saying the change was good, or even needed, just that nerfs happen all the time in almost all games that are under continual development.

 

[Ashrem]

I have noticed that the lower level players who put up trades for under 1000 goods are still there daily. But my neghborhood players who put up large trades (which are very few) seem to have slowed down alot.

As mentioned before, it's not possible to make accurate comparisons at this time because a large event is running and people will be more careful about their stocks until they know what is required to finish it. That includes things like having to devote some of their factories to 24 hour production runs instead of whatever gets them the most goods on their play schedule.

 

[DeletedUser2870]

@SoggyShorts @Kalomom

yes, its a common technique to change something when its (dangerously) overpowered and causes an imbalance in the game.
Problem with Inno is they have no sense of balance at all and their 'balancing' always is done in such a way to have the balance swing completelt to the other side.
This was not a balancing act, this was a castration, taking one of the best AW's and turning it into one of the worst.

 

[DeletedUser2870]

I have noticed that the lower level players who put up trades for under 1000 goods are still there daily. But my neghborhood players who put up large trades (which are very few) seem to have slowed down alot.

Kinda the same here. And me being one of those larger players, I too am slowing down trading. Not even bothering to open the trade-window every day